Hot for Hillary

[Kayleigh]

JoB, where did I say Hillary’s supporters are hillbillys, feminists, and bigots?

Look, you don’t get to make sh*t up and claim I said it when I didn’t.

Many of the people that voted for her in WVA are lower income whites who don’t like blacks—the former point of which was bragged about by the Hillary campaign. She has made it a campaign centerpiece that working class people are her main supporters. She bragged about it. She lords that fact over Obama.

Saying someone is uninformed because they believe something that isn’t true isn’t bigotry: it’s saying something that’s actually verifiable. Something like 11% believe Obama is a Muslim. He’s NOT a Muslim.

I’m tired of being considered elitist because I expect people of all levels of income and education to actually believe things that are TRUE, not made-up.

Now I’m tired of defending myself for crap I didn’t do. I deserve respect too and I take far more crap than you do here on this blog.

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[beachdrivegirl]

One last comment before I am off for tonight. I do have to say for the poor hills campaign and how mean the press is to her….tear tear tear…it is a bit funny how they are what have kept her in this “race”. She was out weeks ago. And within the past week everyone realized it…soooo the press decided to create new headlines that insinuated Hills could still win because she was going to close in on the gap when they counted the delegates in Florida and Michigan. Ha Joke is even if they counted as is Obama still wins. So for any Hill fans out there it is time to start supporting your Democratic nominee Obama.

Obama ’08

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[Anonymous]

…. because his bid was ended by assassination and people like you read a subtext that wasn’t there…

I don’t for a second believe Hillary was inferring someone should assassinate Obama. However, she should have known this is a huge point of discussion in the black community, and has been since he announced. It is a very real fear that he will be shot if elected. Apparently our government feels the same since they assigned security around the clock for him before any other candidate.

The subtext is the mere utterance of the word. When people are talking about it in their daily lives and then your candidate’s chief rival uses the word, it has meaning. Period.

What other reference could she have used? How about simply saying other contests have been undecided at this point in our history. If someone ask when/who, you respond with a name. What possible reason would there be to say RFK was assassinated in June?

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[Anonymous]

Hey Kayleigh, speaking of crap :) thanks for immediately backing me up on the rant thread. I appreciated that.

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[Kayleigh]

You’re welcome, JT. Thanks for being so kind to me too.

PS I know a great place to buy some scarves…:-)

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[JanS]

Kayleigh…you know one of these days , somehow, in some clandestine way, we’re gonna have to meet you…hehe(that was for JT)

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[JanS]

and, JoB? I don’t take offense, ever…you say what you have to say…I understand that..taint personal to me :)

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[Anonymous]

Kayleigh, via Fox news, of course, Dunkin Donuts is pulling the ad. I don’t even know what to say. The most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,359501,00.html

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[Kayleigh]

Jan, y’all are in my neighborhood all the time…and I don’t bite. Well, I don’t bite much. Or hard. And when I do bite, I feel bad afterward and apologize. ;-)

The idea that Rachel Ray is a jihadist sympathizer is funny, JT, the more I think about it. I admit I had no idea what a keffiyeh was or what it supposedly symbolized. I googled but came up with all kinds of different info on it.

But she’s a TV chef, for heaven’s sake, a perpetually chirpy one at that. If she *were* a secret terrorist sympathizer, would she *really* have bragged about it on a Dunkin Donuts commercial? I mean, it would kinda blow her cover.

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[Kayleigh]

JoB, thinking further…

I think we need to have an open and frank discussion on class in this country without people like Hillary calling others “elitist” at every turn. If we don’t start calling on the working class to vote *for* their economic interest and to think better of the “eggheads” that are trying to help them, aren’t we helping keep the working class down?

If we don’t get higher levels of college education in this country, how are we going to bring more people into living wage jobs? It may be tragic that manufacturing jobs are vanishing, but it’s a fact, and I think it will get worse rather than better. Is it elitist to come out and say, “Dude, get your kids into college so that they know how to do something else.”?

This is where democrats, both Hillary and Obama supporters, actually agree: we value education and living wage jobs. In fact, we actually agree on a *lot*, and if you read Matt Taibbi’s piece, you might concur with him that this primary race stopped being about politics and has become about image and projection and identity and redemption.

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[JoB]

Beachdrivegirl…

i didn’t mention West Virginia.. i compared Washington and Oregon.. and if you look at the two states i compared.. you will find i was accurate.

BTW.. i think you will find the section where i mentioned Richardson clearly labeled as opinion…

You are welcome to call me on something i have written that is wrong.. but you have to stop assuming i am telling falsehoods and calling me a liar. It is unkind… and highly disrespectful.

Kayleigh..

the interviews that were published on television with West Virginia voters were with racists… That doesn’t mean the state was full of racists… and therefore those people should just be written off.

Obama did not even campaign to get votes there.. and he could have with the bill he co-sponsored in Illinois to benefit miners…

You would be incensed if someone cherry picked interviews with persons of color in the same way and then implied that they represented all people of color. Should the voters of West Virginia be any different because their skin is white?

Just because that kind of bigotry plays into the current political story doesn’t make it true.. or justified.

i know you to work hard to defend the rights of others. Why should the poor of West Virginia.. or anywhere else be any different?

I agree that a discussion of class is long overdue.. but not because those poor people don’t know any better… or are somehow failing their children because they don’t send them to college. A college education does not necessarily make anyone smarter… nor is it the guaranteed ticket out of poverty it once was.

Were you aware that the employment stats for college grads are currently lower than those for high school grads? … and if you look at those stats closer.. you will find the employment stats for those with lower incomes is lower still.

A college education may still generate higher dollars in average lifetime income.. but it sure doesn’t guarantee employment unless you belong to the class with connections… and that class raises the averages substantially.

I will read matt’s piece later… got to go.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Main Entry: opin·ion

Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpin-yən\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari

Date: 14th century

1 a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b: approval, esteem

2 a: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b: a generally held view

3 a: a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b: the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

The above is the webster definition of Opinion. You state your opinions as fact. I am just point out that they are opinions. So yes when you state that your opinion is fact I point out that you are wrong. All I am asking is that you start backing your opinons up with fact. And once again you dont get to pick and choose what states you compare. And you dont get to define who is poor and who is working class. All I was pointing out is that Hillary’s argument that she pulls the “working class” better is a bunch of bull b/c unfortunatly she and her campaign team do not get to decide who is and who is not wrokign class, poor etc.

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[beachdrivegirl]

“the interviews that were published on television with West Virginia voters were with racists… That doesn’t mean the state was full of racists… and therefore those people should just be written off.”– Sorry but I have to disagree considering the polls stated that 1 in 5 voters stated that race was in issue when deciding on who to vote for (the state was 90% white) so yes I do think that when 20% of voters in one state ADMIT in the exit polls that race was a factor in whom they vote for I would consider that a racist state, IMO. The scary thing is that this 20% of voters that publicly stated that imagine how many more voters just would publicly admit they werer racist.

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[Kayleigh]

JoB, I have to disagree: education *does* make you smarter than you were before. By definition. It certainly made *me* smarter, a better writer, more empathetic and compassionate, more aware of the world around me, and a more critical thinker.

No, education is no guarantee of a better paying job, but it offers people the *best* chance of that. You have a daughter…would you ever have told her, “don’t bother with college because there’s no guarantee…”? Of course not.

I think everybody should go to college or trade school, or learn something specific they can do to put food on the table. It’s hard to make it otherwise. Community colleges offer great two-year training programs for LPNs, chefs, etc. Not everybody needs to be Ivy League. But we all have to pay our bills.

OK: Clinton beat Obama 67% to 26% in WVA. Two in ten people admitted to not voting for Obama because he was black. Keep in mind those are only the ones who admitted it. If those 2 in 10 had voted for Obama instead, Hillary would have barely won (47% to 46%) If even half had done so, it would have been 57% to 36%. Hope I did the math right…:-)

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[JoB]

i think what is bothering me most is that so many of you are allowing the media to frame your story…

“get an education dude” … is a republican storyline.. it was their solution to the loss of manufacturing and high tech jobs.. “if those people would just educate themselves they would be just fine”…

and this from the mouth of the man who didn’t know that gas was rapidly approaching $4 a gallon….

the reality is that those who did educate themselves are finding themselves in as precarious a job situation as they were prior to assuming 40,000+ in debt.

It’s just blaming the victim… creating a false sense of security for those who are still on the positive side of that shrinking line…

and i hate to hear it coming from democrats as truth…

“those people are just ignorant racists”… and we are shown video clips of white people who hesitantly say they just can’t trust a black man..

a black man who didn’t make an effort to change their minds by the way… Was his lack of effort the story? No.. those ignorant racist whites are the story.

And democrats buy it.

But what about the other side of racism? The blacks that are voting for Obama because of his color? That is equally racist and yet not mentioned at all while the Republican press frames our primary.

So why is it ok for democrats to dismiss one group of voters on the basis of implied racism and elevate another for the same reason?

Great republican story line.. turn one group of whites against the other… to their own advantage. And democrats are buying it.

“she should have known the fear of assassination in the black community”…

Why is it that whenever something like this comes out.. the shoulds surface about Hillary. She should have been better.. said more.. done more. She is held to a much higher standard than he is… He misspeaks.. she lies. She could have made the gesture and said that religion doesn’t matter when he was accused of being muslim… yet he should just deny it without comment. anything he says can be explained away.. but anything she says has to have sinister motives…

part of the answer is simple. you hear those motives from the republican press and then they have been picked up and echoed by the anti-Hillary blogs… another part is pure sexism… she is a woman.. she should… the final part is the one that puzzles me… Why is she held to such a higher standard than he is by his own supporters?

And why do you assume his assassination risk has been any higher than hers or that his supporters are somehow more worried about it than hers? If Hillary had not been the wife of a past president and therefore already covered by the secret service, she would have had the same protection he got for the same reason.

So why should we be more sensitive to his risk that to hers?

All good questions.. but I am not expecting them to provoke much thought.

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[beachdrivegirl]

So Hillary’s voters that are voting for her just becasue she is a women are sexist??? Wow, looks like Hillary shouldnt pull the sexism card anymore.

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[JoB]

kayleigh…

i wouldn’t trust the results of a poll until i saw the actual poll and evaluated the questions that were asked.

I can frame a poll to get any result i want.. and if i can.. i know they can.

and that still doesn’t answer the bigger question..

why did the story become racism and not that Obama did not campaign at all in those states?

Don’t you think his choice not to campaign there at all.. not to try to change minds… might have had an effect on the outcome?

Don’t you think that factor should have been part of the discussion?

It wasn’t.. so why not?

I tend to look at the results and then ask myself if those results could have been predicted. What would you do if you wanted to split the democratic vote and market McCain to them? You would concentrate on racism.. because if you can alienate that group.. they are likely to vote for a “moderate and lovable” McCain.

It is entirely possible that many people in West Virginia voted for Clinton primarily because she showed up, talked about their concerns and asked for their vote… and still had reservations about voting for a black man that were reflected in the polls.

As for education…I agree that education gives you the opportunity to think… and i still believe education is the first step out of poverty… but it needs to start much earlier than college. it’s high time we put some back in our primary schools… we once led the world in education.. but not any more…

however, even higher education is no guarantee of critical thought. if it was, we couldn’t have had 8 years of Bush. I know many highly educated people who not only voted for him.. but will continue to vote republican… go figure:)

Blaming those who lack college educations for their own economic misfortune and making the assumption that their lack of education means that they are incapable of holding an informed opinion that differs with your own is simply another Republican tactic to divide and conquer democrats.

I am not against education.. i continue to educate myself every day of my life and certainly encourage not only my children but my grandchildren to do so…

but i am against the pervasive notion that is pedaled by the media that if those people just helped themselves by getting better educated.. they too would be on the have side of the column…

Not less than 5 years ago.. computer programmers.. especially those with advanced educations and experience.. were among the largest group of unemployed in this state… in fact.. on the West coast. Most of them were college grads.. more than a high number had masters… They all did the right thing and got educated.. and worked 12 hour days mastering their craft.

much of the work they once did is now done in India and asia… where the current crop of PhD programmers is coming from.

some of the lucky ones got jobs supervising the integration of their work from the states…

those who are currently employed in their fields consider themselves lucky to have jobs.

And that is just one well educated industry… i have heard similar stories from engineers, lawyers and doctors…

Perpetuating the myth that individual effort is all that is required for success may be comforting to those who are currently making it… and we are lucky to be among them… but that myth alone does more to still real conversation about class than any other.

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[Kayleigh]

“Get an education” is a liberal value, IMO. Republicans often sneer at academia and intellectuals. Bush admits to being a proud C student.

I’m not going to buy into the dumbing down of America. We have to ask more of people or we will continue to get trounced by other countries in terms of emerging technologies, a competitive economy, outsourcing, etc. I don’t see many people working to protect American manufacturing jobs from going overseas, do you? (and yes, I wish people were fighting harder to keep the jobs here.)

As far as race goes, Leonard Pitts speaks far better than I could on this very topic in WVA:

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/

columnists/leonard_pitts/story/548895.html

“Thing is, that’s not what happened in West Virginia. Not unless you’re going to tell me with a straight face that that vote reflected marginalized whites (an oxymoron if ever there was one) seeking a seat at the table. No, all the evidence, statistical and anecdotal, tells us those folks did not vote for Clinton because she is white; they voted against Obama because he is black. There’s a difference.”

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[rs261]

Regarding secret service protection. They (the feds) offered it to Obama before anyone else. The reason? well, I imagine it has something to do with groups like the KKK. I can not think of a “organization” that tries to kill women on a regular basis. (not that the Klan, or aryan brotherhood, or Nazi’s try and kill blacks/jews/others on a “regular” basis either).

Racism exists, sexism exists, one is just more covert then the other.

As far as her comment about stayin in the race because of JFK’s assassination, I didnt read into it like the media did. Nor have I called for Hillary to drop out.

Also, glad you’re back Jo, it was boring here without you :-)

Why didnt Obama campaign in WVa? Probably the same reason why Hillary didnt in Illinois other then 1 rally, when you know a state is going to vote one way or the other, isnt it better to spend your time somewhere else…its a close race, get votes where you have the highest likelyhood of doing so.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

I did not vote for Hillary just because she is a woman. I don’t support her just because she is a woman.

I do admit to a preference for her because she is a woman.. because of the inherent and social differences in thought process and priorities between men and women… and not just because of her sex. I had a dream .. of a woman in the white house who felt the well being of individuals was a priority and who had the political clout and experience to actually realize some of her goals… a shift in the direction of substantive change… So yes, her sex did matter.

I will admit there are those who would vote for her purely because of her sex… any woman for president.

However, the statistics don’t show that a preference for sex is the overriding factor with women that a preference for color is with blacks.

So explain to me why that statement can’t be made without being labeled racist?

That was the only point that Bill Clinton made in Mississippi about the high percentage of black vote when you came unhinged about his racist remarks.

There has been a huge unacknowledged double standard in this campaign…

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[JoB]

Kayleigh…

I didn’t say that education isn’t a core liberal value.

I said that lack of education has been used by the conservative press to blame those who are unemployed for their unemployment and to drive a wedge between those who are still making it and those who don’t.

and democrats are buying into that blame game when they begin to make distinctions between those who have the ability to make decisions in their best interests and those who don’t based on their educational status.

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[Anonymous]

Hillary is held to a higher standard. Oh please. Could the media have played the Rev. Wright tapes any more than they did? They’ve dug up every person he’s met in his whole life to try and paint him in a bad light. The news is still discussing whether or not he has a stupid flag pin on. And people, no thanks to as far as I know Clinton, still think he’s a Muslim.

She should have known assassination is an inappropriate term because it has historic precedent and any one with half a brain, even me, knows not to bring it up.

I am getting really tired of being told that the Republicans are framing my thought processes. As if I am not capable of discerning what is factual and what is propaganda. I absorb everything from MSM, foreign press, blogs, national papers, radio, right and left, periodicals, weeklies, etc. Why is there the constant implication that Obama suporters are ill informed.

Talk about elitist thinking.

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[JoB]

rs261..

i think the poor ignorant racist masses made a better story than the fact that Obama didn’t bother to campaign in those states… especially when democrats bought it and chose to run indignantly with the story themselves.. thereby alienating those voters.

and they will righteously defend that story to the death.. no matter how many voters it costs them…

i think that one works better for the republican strategists than for democrats.

I can understand choosing not to actively campaign in your opponents home state earlier in the race to conserve resources….

but if Obama is truly campaigning against McCain as he had already presented himself doing.. wouldn’t it have been a wise strategy to begin in states which are more likely to vote republican with him as the nominee?

he certainly has ample funds.. so it is not a matter of conserving resources for him.

I think it was matter of saving face for him … if you don’t campaign.. you didn’t really lose…

but he did so at the cost of votes that democrats might not be able to regain this fall… votes we will need.

if we need all voters.. as he says. and he is campaigning against McCain now.. as he says… then he should be actively pursuing all voters… even those he thinks might be difficult to win over.

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[Kayleigh]

Edited as I am losing my coherence.

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[JoB]

JT…

there is this tendency to confuse what comes out of the republican media with Hillary or her supporters…

in spite of ample evidence of their continued animosity towards her.

i said Hillary was held to a higher standard by democrats… and specifically by democrats/Obama supporters on this thread… not the media… when i referred to comments about what Hillary should have said or done differently.

And i was talking about the standards for behavior that were expected of Hillary by Obama supporters on this thread… she has been condemned as much for what she did not do but “should” have as for what she has actually done ….

but those same standards.. going above and beyond the call of duty to stand up for what is right are not expected of Obama..

a really good example of that is when Hillary was asked if Obama was muslim and she replied that she didn’t think so.. he said he wasn’t.

the comment was that she should have emphatically defended his Christianity and then said that it wouldn’t matter if he was.

However, it is enough for Obama to state that he is not muslim… even though his two fathers were and he has far more reason to actually defend those of the muslim faith than she does.

and you state as part of your defense of his not being held to a higher standard that part of America still thinks he is muslim… implying that you think that is a huge disadvantage for him.

so if HIllary should have stepped up to diffuse that question.. to defend appropriateness of being muslim in America.. why would the same gesture not be expected from the candidate who is actually campaigning on what is presented as a tolerance platform and who clearly had more to gain from the discussion?

The answer to that is simple.. it would have been political suicide.. in the current political climate… for either candidate.. so why expect it from Hillary and not from Obama?

That’s a question that could lead to substantive discussion… that could have little or nothing to do with either candidate.

As for what has been happening in the media.. is it time to revisit the stats on negative mentions for the two candidates?

i would be willing to bet far more than my Hot for Hillary mug that those have not changed substantially in spite of the press attention of

Reverend Wright …

You can look them up if you like, but i am willing to bet you won’t be pleased by the results.

yes, the republican press is framing the conversation… they lead with what they choose as news which the rest of the press dutifully picks up and then blogs like the Huffington press amplify when that press is at all negative towards Hillary …

and then those same exaggerations and implications are repeated here as truth .. all courtesy of FOX news…

If that’s not evidence of framing a discussion.. then i am not sure what could be considered evidence.

As for whether you are smart enough to discern what is factual and what is propaganda… i assume that you are or i wouldn’t bother posting…

but sorting it all out is work. you have to actually ask questions that aren’t part of the current national conversation… and there aren’t any popular blogs or news sources asking those questions…

so you get me.

and isn’t it good someone is actually asking whether the emperor is wearing clothes?

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