Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Fauntleroy Southbound School Speed Camera – Video Showing it's VERY hard to see
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January 24, 2013 at 11:42 pm #783289
HuindekmiParticipantCitizens are allowed their day in court.
And if I were the judge in this case, seeing the facts that the accused made no real effort to slow down for the school zone, I would most certainly levy the maximum fine against him.
And if the accused used terms like “assrape” to describe a speeding ticket that he most certainly deserved, or if the accused then started yelling that he was going to react to this deserved fine by driving in a manner specifically designed to annoy his fellow citizens… yes, I would describe the behavior as a hissyfit.
But thanks for asking.
January 25, 2013 at 1:28 am #783290
WSratsinacageMemberAttention advertisers! You too can reach this prime demographic.
January 25, 2013 at 1:54 am #783291
HelperMonkeyParticipantI drive through this school zone every day at various times of day. I have yet to see ONE child at this school zone. The nearest entrance to the school is a block up the street. That being said, I was always careful to go the speed limit though there because I would frequently see the officer there in the little SUV with the camera. When they put in the big radar cameras I was going through the first morning they were activated, going 20 mph. FLASH FLASH! I thought, oh boy – if they got me I am going to contest that. Sure enough, I got a warning letter stating that I was going 25. I called the company listed – not in Seattle, by the way – to contest it even though it wasn’t a ticket. I stated that I knew how fast I was going, saw the flashes and figured there had been a mistake, maybe they were still calibrating. Nope. She then blatantly lied to me and told me there were sensors in the road to measure speed…this is simply not true, and when I called her on it she hemmed and hawed like crazy – she knew she was lying and knew I knew too. This is just a revenue grab by the city, pure and simple, and the people running it are not even affiliated with the city or police department. Now I go 15mph through there every morning, no more, no less. Regardless of everything else, I am not going to give them any reason to get my $$.
January 25, 2013 at 2:36 am #783292
WSratsinacageMemberThe thing about this location is the speed goes from a legal 35 to 20 where as, school zones are usually in a 25 zone so it’s faster/easier to slow down. People aren’t thinking of school zones in 35 mph zones because they historically have not been there. I’m all for school safety but this one is in a bad place and I predict it will get removed. It’s hard not to think this is a money grab.
January 25, 2013 at 6:13 pm #783293
DBPMemberThere seem to be some misconceptions about the new school speed zone policy.
1) “You only have to slow down to 25 mph.”
–No. The enforceable speed limit is 20 mph, not 25 mph. No city official has said that you WON’T receive a ticket if you’re going just 1 mph over. In the OLG thread, Monsieur Velo Nut reports that he got a ticket for going 24 mph.
2) “Posted speed limits are maximums, not minimums.”
–Yes and no. Yes, technically true. But speed limits are set with the assumption that ALL drivers will go at or about the speed limit, with some (or most) going slightly over and a few going slightly under.
You can legally drive 50 mph on a 70 mph freeway, but if you do that you are creating an unsafe condition, because you are forcing the stream of traffic to flow around you, just as if you were at a dead stop in the middle of a 20 mph street.
Traffic safety engineers will tell you that there are more accidents when traffic is flowing at widely varying speeds than when traffic is all travelling at the same speed (regardless of what that speed is.)
This variable rate-of-speed problem is the main reason why these moving-target school zones in 35 mph traffic are so vexing, and why the City needs to make sure drivers know when the school zone is in force and that they have plenty of warning that they approaching it.
You want school kids to be safe and avoid accidents? Great. Me too! So what’s the best way to do that? Is it by socking some drivers with huge fines? Or is it by giving EVERY driver plenty of warning that there’s a zone coming up?
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As far as I’m concerned, the jury is still out on whether drivers at Gatewood have enough warning. I’ll drive by there myself and get back to you.
If I’m not back here by noon, it’ll probably be because I’m in jail.
January 25, 2013 at 11:16 pm #783294
waterworldParticipantWSRats: The speed limit on that stretch of Fauntleroy is not 35. It’s 30. The reduction from 35 to 30 occurs, I believe, at the intersection of Fauntleroy and California, and it remains 30 all the way down to the ferry dock and beyond. So the school zone requires drivers to reduce their speed by only 10 MPH.
Also, I don’t know where you get the idea that schools zones are usually in 25 MPH areas. That hasn’t been what I have noticed at all, but perhaps I’m missing something.
January 25, 2013 at 11:22 pm #783295
WSratsinacageMemberJust clarifying my comment #29 .. 20 MPH school zones are usually on streets which have a 25 MPH limit. So, it’s easier/faster to slow down to 20 from 25 vs from 35 to 20. As I also stated, it seems like slowing down to 20 MPH on 35 MPH roads (35th and Fauntleroy) is a new thing and not as reasonable/safe vs 20 MPH in a 25 MPH zone. I may be wrong but I believe DBP’s traffic engineer analogy lends support to that point.
Thanks to the OP .. clearly not everyone appreciates your thoughts/feelings but whether I agree with you or not, I appreciate your effort.
Didn’t hear from you by noon .. Hope you are ok DBP. :)
edit: I didn’t know it was 30 on Fauntleroy. Thanks.
January 25, 2013 at 11:36 pm #783296
waterworldParticipantWSRats: I see your point; I just want to make sure you got mine as well. In #29 and #32, you have said the speed limit on Fauntleroy (at the Gatewood School zone) is 35. It’s not 35 — it’s 30.
(I wasn’t rendering an opinion on the OP or his situation.)
January 25, 2013 at 11:38 pm #783297
WSratsinacageMemberI got your point and appreciate it, I didn’t know about the 30 MPH zone, I typed the op comment in an edit which posted after your comment. Wasn’t referring to you but to others early on like Huindekmi.
January 26, 2013 at 2:08 am #783298
nerolabsMemberThanks everyone.
I am enjoying the posts by those that are openly debating in a rational, open minded manner, instead of black and white “no sympathy” type posts that, still, in my opinion are close minded, unimaginative, condescending, and rude.
I will echo that I also have never seen a single child along that stretch of road. My son goes to school on Vashon, so I often am travelling that stretch during the school hours to pick up and drop off my son at school. I do appreciate it is adjacent on school grounds, so I do think it’s smart to remind people by adding a school zone speed limit.
My main gripe is still 1) the lack of significant signaling and warning that other zones I’ve experienced have, 2) the dangerous curve where the reaction times – even if there is theoretically enough, it takes just one person coming around the turn behind me to not react to ME reacting and slowing down, 3) that I share this town with close minded people that come to this forum to remind me that I need to “take my whippings” without actually having an open minded debate with me on the facts, accuse me of “whining” and that I should just “shut up” and take it without actually acknowledge that at least some of the facts I posted merit discussion in an open minded way.
January 26, 2013 at 2:10 am #783299
DBPMemberHi gang. Your insipid reporter (DBP) here again.
I went down and watched traffic going southbound past the flashing lights from about 2:30 PM to 3:00 PM today (1/25/13) It’s quite an interesting spot, actually. There’s a lot going on there.
My main observations:
1) From driving this stretch today, I have to agree with nerolabs that the slow-down zone is too short. The flashing lights come up too quickly after that curve, and I didn’t like that. I didn’t feel comfortable with the amount of time I had to get the car to from 30+ to 20-. And I have a small, highly maneuverable car.
That said, I did not exactly have to stomp on the brakes either, and neither did any other driver I saw. I did, however, notice that following distances were generally too short in this section of Fauntleroy, and this caused some near misses when the driver in front slowed down suddenly and the driver behind wasn’t expecting it. There WILL be some fender-benders there. Mark my word.
2) After I parked and started watching other cars, what I saw was that the speed zone was clearly working. Most cars slowed down to around 20 past the school. However, about 1 in 5 cars that were unimpeded by traffic* failed to slow down to 25 or below. No one sped by going over 30 during the time I was watching.
*Many drivers couldn’t speed even if they had wanted to. Since traffic bunches up at the California junction three blocks north, cars tend to travel in convoys past the school. It’s a one-lane road there, so cars can only go as fast as the lead car in the convoy. Add to this the fact that there’s a stoplight at the crosswalk and you have traffic frequently grinding to a halt in front of the school anyway. Which is all to the good, right?
More observations (and photos) to come.
January 26, 2013 at 2:15 am #783300
nerolabsMemberThank you DBP! Awesome findings / post!
January 26, 2013 at 2:35 am #783301
DBPMemberThis shot is facing south from the parking strip, about 15 feet (as the car drives) in front of the flashing speed limit sign.
As you can see, there are obstructions that can keep you from noticing the sign easily. It’s blocked by the camera pole at one point, and since parking is allowed right next to the sign, that’s another distraction.
Then there’s the sun in your eyes . . .
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This shot shows the camera angle, which seemed to me rather shallower than what nerolabs claimed it to be. He said his car was snapped about 10 feet in front of the 20 MPH sign (post #5), but for that to be true, the camera would have to snap pictures of cars as they’re passing the camera pole itself. As you can see here, though, the camera’s lens is pointed off to the south of the pole. I’m estimating that it won’t get you until you’ve travelled at least 20 feet past the sign with the flashing lights — which is still well before the crosswalk. (But I could be quite wrong about this. It’s just guesstimating.)
Interestingly, I noticed a couple drivers going slowly through what they assumed was the camera zone, and then speeding up immediately after they’d left it. You know, I get there are some folks out there who’d pay a pretty penny to know just what spot these cameras ARE aimed at.
January 26, 2013 at 2:55 am #783302
nerolabsMemberHere is a pic of where it snapped my picture. I can’t quite tell how close it was that it clocked me, but that’s when it took the picture. I assume it needed 10s of feet to gauge my speed.
January 26, 2013 at 3:05 am #783303
DBPMemberOn the “protecting the kiddies” issue . . .
I’ve got to agree with nero and Helper Monkey here. While, I was there watching, which was during the peak of the school pick-up time, there were NO children crossing at the crosswalk, with or without parents. (There were children crossing all right, but not at the crosswalk — which I’ll get to in a minute.)
Now I did see plenty of grown-ups crossing at the crosswalk. But they were all crossing there to get on or off the bus.
So the school zone is protecting grown-ups at the crosswalk, which is a good thing IMO. But on the other hand, pedestrians aren’t entitled to their own speed zones, as far as I know. And certainly not zones with $189 fines.
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Now then . . . as I was lurking about, a homeowner who lives in the area – one “Cathy B.” – came out and asked me what I was doing.
“Don’t be alarmed, citizen,” I said. “I’m with the United Nations.”
“Say, does this new school-zone thingie actually work?” I queried.
“Oh yes,” she replied. “I like it. It’s slowed traffic down here a lot.”
“But I don’t see any school kids crossing at the crosswalk.”
“No. That’s right. They never cross at the crosswalk. They all cross right here, in front of my house.”
“I really used to worry about them before,” she added. “It seemed like they were taking their life in their hands every time they dashed across. Now it’s much better, ‘cuz cars are going slower and drivers can see people crossing in time.”
As we were speaking, a woman emerged from the school building with her little scholar in tow, walked down Frontenac to Fauntleroy, and darted across. They then got in their car and zipped off, and as they did, I noticed the woman yapping into a cell phone.
Ha-RUMPH!
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Now before you knot your knickers, consider that this woman was actually trying to be a good parent by not idling her car in front of the school building on Frontenac, as per school policy.
More on that in a jiff.
January 26, 2013 at 3:21 am #783304
DBPMember“See those cars all piled up there outside the school on Frontenac?” Cathy B. said, pointing. “You ought to take a picture of that, too. That’s a real problem.”
“Oh yeah? Why?”
“Because they’re not supposed to be there idling like that. They’re waiting for their kids to come out, but when they stop on that side of the street it cuts traffic down to one lane there, because there’s cars parked on the other side of the street too. The ferry traffic comes up that street, but it gets blocked up.”
“Why can’t parents use the school parking lot to pick up their kids?” I wondered.
“Oh, that’s already full up.”
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“Look, I understand why the parents do that,” she said. “They’ve got little kids and they can’t be walking ’em across Fauntleroy. But still, the school doesn’t want ’em to park there. They’ve got signs up and everything: ‘No idling.’ But people still do it anyway.”
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Indeed. People aren’t supposed to do LOTS of things, Cathy . . .
But they do them anyway.
January 26, 2013 at 3:38 am #783305
WSratsinacageMemberThanks D. The plot thickens!!!
January 26, 2013 at 3:53 am #783306
nerolabsMemberBy the way if I was going NORTH on Fauntleroy, where the warning sign and the light are in a straightaway, I wouldn’t be as butthurt about all this, but I’d still make the case that most effective school zones I’ve seen there is a set of lights strung up across the road flashing asking people to slow down.
The big issue here, for me, is the curve (and with obstructions as DBP pointed out, thank you) in which you can’t possibly see the flashing light without having a reaction time which might actually turn into a CHAIN-reaction with cars behind coming around the curve into a car that has slowed down without them seeing it, let alone that even though some people might think I’m whining with their unsympathetic apathy, it’s still a $189 fine, which is highway robbery.
Aside from the obvious danger, I don’t see how it’s fair or in the spirit of what they want to accomplish to give people so little time to react to get “caught” with such a stiff fine.
January 26, 2013 at 4:41 am #783307
JulieMemberOne point in support of the argument that the signage is adequate is this from the WSB story on January 13:
“…from the first almost-two-weeks of ticketing by the Fauntleroy Way camera near Gatewood Elementary and three others elsewhere in the city; the West Seattle camera was responsible for 435, the lowest total, less than a third of the 1,510 tickets attributed to the camera near Thurgood Marshall Elementary.”
While it’s possible this is because WS drivers are so much more alert that drivers elsewhere in the city, I’m dubious about that; it seems more likely to me that the design of the roadway or the placement of the signage is better. (Neither the Times article nor the WSB article lists the tickets as a percentage of traffic passing the cameras, so it’s also quite possible the lower numbers here just reflect less traffic.)
Anyway, I do have to say I find no difficulty slowing to the required 20 mph, as long as I’m paying attention, just by removing my foot from the gas–no braking required. But I am one of those silly people who tries to go 30 in a 30 mph zone.
January 26, 2013 at 5:33 am #783308
dobroParticipantBoy, you guys are really stretching…
“It’s blocked by the camera pole at one point, and since parking is allowed right next to the sign, that’s another distraction.”
The photo is clearly taken from the grassy area of the parking strip, not the traffic lane where a car would be. Doesn’t prove a thing. And the testimony from a neighborhood person would seem to indicate that the zone is working.
“Now it’s much better, ‘cuz cars are going slower and drivers can see people crossing in time.”
I guess I’m one of the “closeminded” people that think like this- obey the traffic laws. When you don’t (as you admit you didn’t)and get caught, pay the piper and try to learn from it. And I guess you might put me in with the “unimaginative” thinkers who are not trying to “imagine” how I can get out of paying the fine for the law I broke. No matter how much imagination you can conjure up, if you were speeding you broke the law.According to your own statement “…thirty two miles per hour, while the light was flashing” you were not only over the school zone limit, you were over the normal 30 mph limit. Give it up, pal. I doubt the traffic magistrate is going to care much about your video unless you have a perfect driving record and this is your first infraction.
Trying to drag this one out into “Dog Poop in the Trash Can-the Sequel?”
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