Does West Seattle want Ted Tripp?

[Nico]

In just a few weeks, Mars Hill Church in West Seattle will be hosting a seminar by Ted Tripp and it makes me sick to think about it, because he will influence many young parents with vulnerable little children and babies.

Tripp is somewhat notorious for his promotion of painful corporal punishment for children, even toddlers and BABIES under the age of two.

Disturbing quotes from Tripp’s book, Shepherding a Child’s Heart:

p.134 “Acquaint your children with authority and submission when they are infants. This training starts the day you bring them home from the hospital.”

p.142 “You must provide examples of submission for your children. Dads can do this through biblical authority over their wives, and Moms through biblical submission to their husbands.”

p.106 “Watch a baby struggle against wearing a hat in the winter. Even this baby who cannot articulate or even conceptualize what he is doing shows a determination not to be ruled from without. This foolishness is bound up within his heart. Allowed to take root and grow for 14 or 15 years, it will produce a rebellious teenager who will not allow anyone to rule him. The spanking process drives foolishness from the heart of a child. Confrontation with the immediate and undeniably tactile sensation of a spanking renders an implacable child sweet.”

p.151 Tripp describes the whipping procedure: take the child to a private place (so nobody can stop the abuse), make the child confess, tell the child “how many swats he will receive”, put the child over your lap (as Tripp says, to “put the spanking in the context of your physical relationship” (!!)), pull the child’s diapers or “drawers” down and whip them. Then pull the child up and show affection.

p.154 “When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. Rebellion can be something as simple as an infant struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit on your lap. When our oldest child was approximately 8 months old, we were confronted with parenting our first mobile child. We had a bookshelf constructed of boards and bricks. Fearing the shelf would fall on him, Margy told him not to pull himself up by the shelf. After moving him away from the shelf, she left the room. As she peeked in on him, she observed him surveying the room. Not seeing her, he headed back toward the forbidden bookshelf. Here was a young child, not yet able to walk or to talk, looking to see if the coast was clear so he could disobey. Obviously, he was old enough to be disciplined.”

I’m putting in the church email. Maybe the church will listen if the public speaks up. At the very least, I would love it if Ted Tripp were instructed NOT to advocate physical punishment for babies under the age of two while he is speaking in my city.

Uck. So sick.

Email the church here:

life@marshillchurch.org

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[JanS]

nico…are you a member of this church? I personally find these teachings reprehensible, but there is this thing about free speech? Just a thought.

I’ll be curious if you hear back from the church..

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[Caduceus]

Disciplining your child is entirely acceptable imo.

But disciplining an infant for messing with a hat?

The only thing I’m concerned about is him imprinting false ideals into people’s heads.

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[Anonymous]

Completely disgusting that inciting violence (teaching whipping procedures) against babies is acceptable and allowed under the guise of religion.

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[acemotel]

If there is a god, s/he is surely weeping at this perversely interpreted theology. It’s a recipe for child abuse, making human being who equate punishment with affection. The sheer stupidity of some people is mind boggling, really.

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[WSB]

Hadn’t heard about this (hadn’t even heard about Ted Tripp, he must not have been around when we were in the early parenting years) – so I looked it up on Mars Hill’s website. Just one point of clarification: This guy is not speaking IN West Seattle, physically, anyway. He will be at MH-Ballard and broadcast live to other locations including WS. Looks like the second day of the “event” has the spanking-specific discussion.

http://theresurgence.com/shepherding_a_childs_heart_conference

TR

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[charlabob]

I loathe everything I’ve read about the guy, but I support his right to speak this trash as long as he doesn’t use public funds to do so. I’m pretty sure he and others of his ilk wouldn’t do the same for me.

We just have to provide counter information and adequate emotional support for parents and make sure that child abuse isn’t condoned by the law under the guise of “not meddling in family affairs.”

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[Ken]

Interesting paper on the history of abuse and a different religion. Remember also that most fundamentalist sects advocate child abuse of varying degrees.

A local blog Orcinus

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/10/saras-sunday-rant-ultimate-betrayal.html

The following paper is Chapter 16 in the book, The Phenomenon of Cults from a Scientific Perspective, edited by Piotr T. Nowakowski, published by Dom Wydawniczy Rafael, Cracow, Poland, 2007, ISBN: 978-83-7569-025-5.

Prior to that, it was published in the ICSA academic journal, Cultic Studies Review (Volume 3, Number 1, 2004), and was presented at an ICSA conference entitled, “The Violation of Innocence: How Cults Abuse Children,” held in Edmonton, Alberta, June 11 – 12, 2004.

Authoritarian Culture and Child Abuse in ISKCON

by Nori J. Muster

Abstract

Ninety plaintiffs and 400 additional claimants have filed claims against the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, the Hare Krishna movement, for alleged child abuse suffered in the organization’s school system in the 1970s and 1980s. Nori J. Muster, a former member and researcher, explains what happened in the schools and how it remained secret for twenty years. She also discusses indoctrination into authoritarian attitudes in ISKCON and offers suggestions on how to prevent future child abuse.

http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/articles/affpaper.html

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[JoB]

if you want to produce an adult who makes good responsible decisions that take into account the welfare of those around them.. there is no substitute for a loving nurturing childhood.

the axiom from my youth that there were no kids so wild as the preacher’s kids holds true today.

When you make all of your child’s decisions for them… they never learn how to make responsible decisions for themselves… so when they chafe against parental control… and all children will… it generally turns out badly.

In addition…those who were physically and mentally abused as children are far more likely to physically and mentally abuse children as adults.. and not just their own.

I am sure that is not the result well meaning parents intend when they follow the kind of parenting advice offered by Ted Tripp.

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[Julie]

Ken, I think there’s a reason fundamentalist sects of all types tend to support child abuse (which they’d call “discipline”). The idea at the core of all religion is acceptance of ideas by authority rather than by reason. Fundamentalist sects return to this core idea, which tends to become dissipated in the religion’s less-rigorous adherents. And if you want to raise your children not to reason, but to accept authority without question, fear is your best tool.

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[JenV]

while not wanting to out too much of my own childhood on this blog- I will say that I was disciplined up until the age of 16. It ensured that either I knew the difference between right and wrong- or got really good at not getting caught. I personally see nothing wrong with physical discipline of a child – within reason. The real child abuse is taking your child to Mars Hill Church and exposing them to their hateful ideals.

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[MissK]

Nico I think you email will go on deaf ears at Mars Hill. They have an agenda and come hell or high water they will reach that agenda. I don’t subscribe to what they teach at that church, so I don’t support anything in regards to it. However, this Ted Tripp guy does have the right to speak his views. Even if they are horrendous and very damaging. Hopefully, those listening will use their own good judgement. Although they are going to Mars Hill?? (scratches head)

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[JoB]

generally speaking, the people who attend those kinds of presentations are those who are looking for validation for what they already think they should do..

i wish i was just being cynical.

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[Nico]

Job said: “generally speaking, the people who attend those kinds of presentations are those who are looking for validation for what they already think they should do..”

Based on my observations, Tripp will be talking to an audience that is relatively naive and inexperienced regarding his brand of “discipline”.

Otherwise I would not be bothering to discuss this upcoming travesty.

Maybe there’s nothing I can do about this, and Ted Tripp will come, teach his poison and several hundred babies, toddlers and small children will find themselves under a new and painful regime of forced submission and painful punishment.

But if this is going to happen, I at least want the church and Tripp to get a public black eye for it.

Do Child Protective Services allow an adult to painfully slap an eight month old infant on the bare skin in this state? Ted Tripp is planning to teach parents to do that and to teach them how to HIDE and deceive the authorities so as not to be caught doing it.

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[mellaw6565]

I’m not so sure I would condone Tripp’s messages under the guise of “freedom of speech” if what he is advocating could possibly be considered as child abuse under the law. That may not be “protected” speech.

Even if not illegal, I think people who espouse these types of messages should be protested and exposed whenever possible.

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[RainyDay1235]

“…but to accept authority without question, fear is your best tool” – funny, I thought I was listening to the RNC again.

Personal religion can be a beautiful thing. Organized religion frightens me. “God” help those poor kids innocently coloring out of the lines in Sunday School at Mars Church.

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[Julie]

RainyDay, re: RNC–I think the parallels leap out at anyone who’s paying attention! How else did the “Patriot” act get passed?

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[Zenguy]

I have a problem with Mars Hill in general. As a liberal I support their right to believe and say what they want. Does that same sentiment come back to me? I would guess not.

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[Jenny]

I’m willing to believe that Mars Hill’s brand of woo is the wooziest of all, and whenever I read someone explaining any kind of human interaction lapsing into Biblical phraseology I get woozy myself. But I have one question: Your citation of p.151 isn’t a quote, it’s a paraphrase. Does he really speak of “whipping”, or is he describing how to give your little brat a swat on the butt? (Also, if he mentions getting the kid to confess, then I’m pretty sure the passage is not referring to “babies”.)

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[Anonymous]

Read some of the reviews on Amazon.

“This book made me sick to my stomach. I have (did have) friend who followed this book and I have actually had to report them for child abuse. They leave bruises on there children all the time because this book says you shouldn’t worry about the bruises just breaking your childs will and heart.”

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0966378601/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar

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[Concernedparent]

Concerning the law in Washington:

From

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.100

However, the physical discipline of a child is not unlawful when it is reasonable and moderate and is inflicted by a parent, teacher, or guardian for purposes of restraining or correcting the child.

But adds

The age, size, and condition of the child and the location of the injury shall be considered when determining whether the bodily harm is reasonable or moderate.

Concerning the age at which Ted Tripp is advocating starting his methods: I do believe he is suggesting whipping babies.

p.134 “Acquaint your children with authority and submission when they are infants. This training starts the day you bring them home from the hospital.”

“Watch a baby struggle against wearing a hat in the winter. Even this baby who cannot articulate or even conceptualize what he is doing shows a determination not to be ruled from without. This foolishness is bound up within his heart. Allowed to take root and grow for 14 or 15 years, it will produce a rebellious teenager who will not allow anyone to rule him. The spanking process drives foolishness from the heart of a child. Confrontation with the immediate and undeniably tactile sensation of a spanking renders an implacable child sweet.”

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[WSratsinacage]

I don’t have a citation but it seems reasonable to me that experts say hitting doesn’t work. Might work in the short term but in the long term it is counterproductive. Break the cycle! God knows what this sort of behavior is having on kids and grown up survivors of abuse. It is not a far stretch to think this has an effect on how abused kids raise their kids when they grow up or perpetuating drug use to escape. Criminal behavior or acting out etc. The abused/molested who abuses/molests when he/she grows up.

I agree with comments 4, 5, 7, 13, and 20.

People used to debate whether disciplining kids was abuse, now we are talking about a book advocating abusing babies?! OMG! And this is coming from a church member? I don’t consider Mars Hill a church, it’s a “church” like those crazies that “handle snakes and dance to band on stage playing a monotonous beat by “musicians”. Join civilized society.

Ironic and sad that what is supposed to be a good thing (belief in a high power, being Christ-like, benevolent, etc gets twisted into physical and sexual abuse on such a grand scale over so many hundreds of years!

I was disciplined and I still hold it against my parent’s decades later. I still don’t think it was a good thing. I have broken the cycle with my kids. Laying a hand on someone you love and created is so foreign to me. Many people say it is discipline when really it’s parents who are mad and lash out physically. Quit making excuses. I think you lack a sympathetic emotional gene.

Does West Seattle want Ted Tripp? No!

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[charlabob]

Are we really debating whether infants should be beaten? As far as I can see, the freeper troll is the only person who came close and even (s)he only disputed the citation. Thank you WSB forumites, for restoring my dwindling faith in humanity. :-)

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[WSratsinacage]

ok, I am not ashamed to admit it but I don’t know what freeper troll is defined as but I think we are all too old to be using slang like a bunch of 12 year old internet geeks! Still, I want to know what it means? Troll – someone who is registered but doesn’t post? Is freeper someone who signs up 2 seconds ago to lob something out there?

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[Concernedparent]

Here is the citation that you would might be looking for:

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), however, in an official policy statement [4] (reaffirmed in 2004) states that “Corporal punishment is of limited effectiveness and has potentially deleterious side effects. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents be encouraged and assisted in the development of methods other than spanking for managing undesired behavior.” In particular, the AAP believes that any corporal punishment methods other than open-hand spanking on the buttocks or extremities “are unacceptable” and “should never be used”. The policy statement points out, summarizing several studies, that “The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults.”[34] Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence when used with older children and adolescents.[35]”

Sources;

4. http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;101/4/723

34. Straus MA. Spanking and the making of a violent society. Pediatrics 1996; 98:837-842 PMID 8885984

35. Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment be tested? Pediatrics 1996; 98:834-836 PMID 8885983

First I think the focus should be what can we do about this monsterous man talking in West Seattle?

Also, I think the debate is about free speech. Is it free speech when you are giving a seminar on harming young children? And is what he advocates even legal?

And consider the long term effect this discipline technique could have on the children that will most likely going to school with your kids.

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