Anti-bag fee people in front of safeway..trying to get our signatures!!

[beachdrivegirl]

It is interesting to me that i have been one of the only ones to actually back up my facts but get them brushed off b/c they differ from others positions on something. Of course you are going to say it is an opinion peace and dismiss not b/c you actually tried to read or take the credibilty of the article in but because it is different from your existing opinion and heaven forbid anyone admits that thier opinion might be wrong.

If you actualy google “seattle bag tax studies” you can not get one positive (other than the cities own sites) review of the ban.

Here are a few statistics from the cities own study on what will be a few of the reactions from the ban: “The city’s own study shows that the ban will cause higher costs (69 percent more), more energy use (114 percent more), more carbon emissions (134 percent more) and more generated waste (140 percent more). “

Did you also know that there are better more cost efficient alternatives than banning and taxing such as recycling ??? For example although Shanghai once had a ban on polystyrene foam it now recycles more than 70% fo it after lifiting the ban. Furthermore, with more reasearch you can learn that those European countries that have banned plastic bags were not doing so for the environment but actually to crack down on littering. something with India. They did it b/c it killed a cow after a plastic bag clogged a storm drain.

Show me that this will not raise our food costs, our cost of living, and the cost of being a City of Seattle resident. I also would love for you to find the facts that this will make a difference. I doubt you find many. Califronia is being sued. Shanghai is lifting theres, oh yeah and Ireland…their number of garbage bags has more than doubled since the ban. Great job Seattle!

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[mellaw6565]

JoB – yes I would love it if you would give me a shout; mellaw6565@aol.com. I have 3 dogs plus I have a supplemental pet sitting business, so lots of poo in my life:)

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[JoB]

Beachdrivegirl,

i didn’t dismiss the piece you referenced. I simply pointed out that it was not an academic analysis, regardless of it’s authors.

most of the “facts” you are quoting come directly from that piece which sourced them directly from plastic industry paid evaluations.

does it matter that other countries where they chose to ban plastic bags because of litter had a much larger problem than we have in Seattle? Does the fact that their problem was larger make ours insignificant?

What will that do to alleviate the increased cost of the current methods of recycling plastic bags and controlling the litter they create? Was the difference in the litter problem there due to a lack of litter control in general?

And the big one, who will assume the increased cost of both recylcing and litter control if there is not bag tax?

The bag tax should only raise your food cost if you choose not to bring your own bags… it is a use tax. you have to use the bags to be taxed.

However, if we don’t find a way to cover the increased cost of recycling plastic bags, you will pay the cost of recycling them in your garbage bill, whether you personally use them or not.

A use tax gives the individual the right to choose whether or not to pay the additional cost.

I would think you would be all for that.

It is true that banning polystyrene foam has the side effect of raising polystyrene recycling costs. It also has the side effect of temporarily raising the costs of alternate containers.

Unfortunately, it takes more than one isolated market to increase the demand for low cost bio-responsible alternatives..

Once those alternatives are the market standard, the cost for recycling polysyrene containers drops to 0.

and the same can be said for plastic bags.. until there is a strong demand for biodegradable bags, they will continue to be more expensive than the alternative..

One of the advantages that Seattle has in starting this program over that which is likely to be overturned in Ireland… is a strong mandated recycling program that is already in place and a public education process to learn about alternative replacement containers .. also already in place.

yes, the short run costs increase… but the long term costs decrease.

one of the factoids from that piece that i found particularly telling was the assertion that landfill capacity was no longer a problem.. since we use Eastern Oregon and they will have capacity for another 40 years.

That plastic will still be there in 40 years.. or it will have been burned releasing toxic chemicals into either the air or the ground water… for another 40 years if we keep the status quo.

Does this seem like a good solution to you?

Who do you think will foot the bill for cleaning up that mess?

Yes, California is being sued.. by the industry that it is depriving of revenue.. on the basis that they didn’t do a proper environmental study before passing the law. Now that’s irony!

I could analyze the facts you pulled out of the “city’s own study” had you posted the link to that study.. but i am not going to go digging for what i am fairly certain is a limited representation of the facts. After all, if the facts you mention are all that were in the study, it is unlikely there would have been agreement on the proposal.

i think it is important that we dig deeper and ask ourselves if those who are trying to influence us are giving us all the facts..

and if they are asking the right questions in the first place…

whether we agree with them or not.

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[mellaw6565]

BDG – a lot of studies’ predictions never come true. I don’t think anyone is brushing you off – in fact JoB and I both read the article that you forwarded and disagree that it is a scholarly statistical measure but leans more towards scholarly opinions, which is a big difference.

I’ll look forward to debating the results with you in the future as the ban takes effect; then we can measure how accurate any of these predictions are, pro or con. Until then, I’ll continue my practice of reusable bags and you can continue to drive all over town to avoid using them. To each his own.

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[JoB]

BTW.. in the interests of disclosure.. i do a great deal of my grocery shopping in Burien… it’s cheaper… where i will not be forced to pay a bag tax if i forget my bags…

but.. i have been taxing myself for some time now by making myself purchase bags when i forget to bring in my own..

and the number of excess bags i am donating to the food bank is rapidly dwindling…

i don’t know how it will work for others when they pay 20 cents instead of a dollar each.. but my own personal education program appears to be working very well for me;~>

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[beachdrivegirl]

Would you mind citing where you are getting your facts JoB? Those facts I used in my second post were fron a different article than the one i posted. Once I read where you gets your facts I will be happy to supply my links; howver as i have mentioned at least once google:

Seattle bag tax evaluation & SEattle Bag Tax Study. I think you will be surprised at what you see.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Actually dont becuae I dont want to debate about this anymore. it is really a waste of my day.

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[condodweller]

For everyone’s peace of mind, I DO recycle bottles, plastic and paper, just not “wet garbage”, some of which could probably be of the yard waste description. However, we are not set up for that type recycle at our building and it would cost about $5,000 to do so.

Simply put, it (the tax) does not solve the problem, every other type of business is free to plastic bag away. I too feel the pollution problem is an urgent issue, but not one that we will solve with charging for plastic bags at the store. It will come from universal caring about our planet.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

the info about the difficulties in recycling plastic bags came for the insert in my garbage bill.

the info about the probable increase in garbage rates came from the fact that a fairly large chunk of the money collected from this fee will go to offset garbage/recycling costs to prevent an increase… as stated in the info released.

the info about the toxic waste generated by burning plastic bags came from reading about landfill issues when i lived next to one in Vancouver, Wa 10+ years ago.. and although the technology has improved some since then, the problem remains.

The info about the lawsuit in California came from the link to the article you cited… though the irony was certainly my own.

The rest of the observations came from a combination of personal observation and accumulated reading on the subject of recycling..

i did mention i have been at this since the early 70s didn’t I? I have reading and thinking about it.. and learning how to do a better job each year since then.

condodweller..

i had no doubt that you recyle what you can.

i only passed along my comments about the dishpans because finding and using them was a real aha moment for me in the last house… and solved a logistical problem i had been struggling with for years.

If universal caring for our planet was the answer, plastic bags wouldn’t be an issue now.

We would all be carrying our own to the store and wouldn’t patronize stores that make it difficult for us to use them.. like the store that recently prebagged my groceries in plastic before putting them in my bag in spite of my request to bag my own. and all grocery stores would have facilities for recycling bags.

I personally think banning the bags is a better option.. I would like to see plastic bags eliminated from all stores… but starting by charging for them in the industry that creates 85% of bag use is a good start.

I used them for years without thinking. I reused them.. but they ultimately ended up in the garbage with their little bit of dog waste anyway.

I can’t tell you how much less irritation i feel when i bring my bags in, empty them and then replace them in my purse to be used again… than when i used to unload groceries and then try to figure out what to do with them.

There is no one solution that solves the problem.. but charging for bags sure makes people stop and think about whether or not they want to pay extra for them.

After all, we have been paying for them all along… their cost has been built into our grocery bill.

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[beachdrivegirl]

I have no doubt in my mind that we should recycle. I care for the environment. However, I do have a problem with our city forcing a tax upon an industry that will not amke a difference. the bags at the grocery store are not an issue and there are better solutions out there.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

you are entitled to your opinion… and your opinion is that there isn’t a problem.

but either way you get to pay the freight for the problem you think doesn’t exist.

you can pay the bag tax or you can pay higher garbage processing bills…

if there is a bag tax, you will have the choice whether to pay for bags at the store.

if higher garbage processing fees end up the only option, there won’t be a vote.. and you won’t have a choice.

we will all pay regardless of our habits.

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[walfredo]

JoB- please show me anything that states what you claim- that the bags are a specific problem, that have a terrible cost passed on to all. That this cost will be removed by removing one industries bags in one county. I would love to see anything that resembled that! I’m sure you’ll just continue to state is a fact.

The truth is- there is entirely too much packaging in all aspects of our culture. In basically any industry I can think of (except maybe downloadable software and cell phone ringtones) I think pretty much every other industry in the country uses excess packaging that causes a burden on our waste infrastructure.

Right? So, as a solution to this problem of #1- consumerism, #2- excess packaging, #3- non-biodegradable products… because those are the problems right? We have decided to tax the bags used to carry groceries .20. We have offered no ideas to even attempt to combat any of the problems that can be easily identified. We have not tried to impact the packaging of products… Or the transport of anything but groceries. Which- whichever way you slice it is a tax on the poor. The poor spend exponentially larger portions of income on staple products like groceries. They are much less likely to be able to keep and store reusable bags…

I’m from Santa Cruz, CA and I actually understand the idea behind a symbolic political gestures. I grew up in one of the few “nuclear free zones” in the United States. This was approved to send a symbolic message, and I think was kind of a cool idea. Taxing the poor to make yourself feel better about something we aren’t even attempting to solve is terrible public policy.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB please do not tell me what is and is not my opinion. i do not appreciate (and I have mentioned this before) when you tell me what I think. i dont think a bag tax is a solution and there is plenty of evidence that supports this that soem are choosing to ignore

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[condodweller]

I guess for me, it all comes down to this:

1) I will place my wet garbage in plastic of some form

2) I prefer it to be of a thinner, more biodegradeable type with more than one use of the product

3) Store bags seem to be a “greener” option than buying new, 1 time use, thicker plastic bags for the purpose

4) I do not think that the tax will help the environment at all because people still need to place wet garbage in plastic

5) I have a great method of keeping recycling that involves using store bags (they are recycleable) and ones provided by the recycling company that are reusable

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[beachdrivegirl]

out of curiousity… are the bag tax supporters all ready to bring their own dinnerware to pick up their take out? are they also ready to bring their own dinnerwear to dinner for leftovers b/c to me that sounds like fun!

And since when does it seem like a good idea to tax paper bags? This tax is negative reinforcement which typicallyl does not work well with children so i dont see how it is going to work with adults. but we will see. Seems logical to me.. but then again who uses logic these days?

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[JoB]

walfredo..

you think you are fighting this fee for the poor?

if this fee doesn’t pass creating a fund to relieve the fee pressure on garbage disposal, they will have no choice whether to pay the garbage increased garbage collection fee that will result.

they can eliminate the bag fee by using recyclable bags which they can get from the local food bank or from the city if this passes…

No, this fee won’t impact the poor more than the alternatives.

yes, they pay more for their groceries as a percentage of their gross income.. but they don’t buy more items which need to go into more bags than those with more money. In fact, the opposite is true since the money they have to spend on groceries is limited.

And the truly poor are additionally limited in their one time purchases by the need to use public transportation.. which makes it possible for them to avoid the fee altogether by using fewer bags.

As for the poor not being able to keep and store reusable bags…

have you ever noticed that those who habitually depend on public transportation also habitually carry bags or wear backpacks? Carrying bags is a habit they have already established out of necessity.

This same is true of those who have the luxury of transportation. Their trunks already contain reusable storage bags of some kind.

It’s not the poor this fee burdens…

But, you are right, there are a lot more issues that need to be addressed than plastic shopping bags..

and those issues can be addressed best by those who feel themselves most inconvenienced by the use of recyclable shopping bags… those who might not want to carry a bag to carry their bags.

All of us can choose to use the power of the purse to purchase products that minimize packaging…

we can choose to ask for a non polystyrene take out container when we choose to purchase take out foods. Most places can comply, if only with foil. And if they can’t.. we can choose not to buy take-out.

If we were already doing so, this wouldn’t be an issue, would it?

You have to start somewhere.. and apparently it takes laws to get those who will be inconvenienced to go to the extra effort. I haven’t looked the numbers up.. but i am willing to bet that recycling rates jumped significantly here after the imposition of mandatory recycling.

You talk about what “we” have tried.

i am going to assume you pay as much attention to packaging and recycling as i do… and i can tell you that this proposed fee has made me more aware of the ubiquitous creep of plastic bags into my shopping habits… and of packaging.. and…

if people with conscientious habits realize they are still abusive of the environment with their personal habits.. just what do you think it is going to take to make those who aren’t already aware inconvenience themselves to change their habits?

At the least, it is going to take one of those symbolic gestures you mention supporting.

Right now this is the only option on the table.

If it goes to a vote, i suspect this will end just like public transportation issues have here.. a lot of talk and nothing gets done.

and that was fine until gas prices skyrocketed.

just as this will be fine until we can no longer cover the cost to clean up the mess that is being carelessly left behind.

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[walfredo]

I don’t get it… So you don’t believe this will disproportionately affect those in the lower class? I’m not talking total dollars, I’m talking percentage of disposable income. People are already stretched very thin… If no one has been paying attention, gas is much more expensive, groceries are much more expensive. Staple goods are taking a much larger share of disposable income. To add a tax to GROCERIES right now, in this economic climate, seems very misguided.

I disagree wholeheartedly that the only way this happens is through government mandate. Whole Foods started using reusable shopping bags over a decade ago. The partnered with organic producers, and environmentally friendly products. They marketed to this niche, and became an extremely profitable and succesful company doing this. In West Seattle PCC and Met Market have followed from this lead. People that want to do these things will, and they are even willing to pay a premium.

Let’s take another massive problem- drug use and addiction. This of course costs us money through law enforcement, prison systems, treatment centers, loss of productivity, increased crime etc… So let’s pass an ordinance that taxes ziplock baggies .85 cents per bag because they are sometimes used for drugs. Let’s mandate this fee, as it will help offset the massive costs that drug use and addiction and the black market it creates burdens our society with.

This is the equivalent of the problem solving and depth of thinking being used in the grocery bag tax. Let’s take a really big problem, do absolutely nothing to solve it, and raise taxes on one item out of literally 10’s of thousands that cause similar burden.

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[JoB]

Walfredo..

noone is proposing adding a tax to groceries to pay for bags.

they are proposing a fee for those who choose not to bring bags.. of any kind.. to the store when they shop.

Those with limited incomes that you speak for already do so anywhere they shop that credits them 5 cents for bringing their own bag.

If they are concerned, it is with the loss of the 5 cents they have been earning with their good habits…

a factoid that i haven’t heard anyone opposing the fee use…

As for equating this fee to the idea of creating a tax on baggies to curb drug use.. i am going to let that one pass with a whimper… I don’t even understand why you think that was a useful analogy…

and i am done with this subject for tonight…

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[walfredo]

The point is, that in attempt to solve a big problem, they have come up with an extremely thin solution that will do nothing, except impose a tax on 1 item used by one industry. Taxing grocery bags is as effective a way of minimizing garbage processing costs to taxpayers, as taxing ziplock baggies would be an effective way of minimizing drugs costs to taxpayers…

It solves nothing, it does nothing, but it lets people pretend that they are making a difference… and it unfairly targets the poor.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGZ5wqFMmUS4&refer=home

This at a time when inflation and rising energy prices are already pushing food costs to an all-time high percentage of disposable income.

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[JoB]

Walfredo,

the bag fee doesn’t target the poor… If you have worked with poor people, you know that.

it is true that there is a segment of the poor who this fee will impact disproportionately.. but the fee is only going to impact the amount of oblivion they can buy.

the working poor and those on limited incomes watch their pennies and won’t find carrying bags to eliminate a dollar on 5 bags of groceries a burden… it will just be a fact of life.

Those that this fee will impact the most are impulse buyers… and you have to have money to feed impulses.

While deferring the cost of disposing and recycling plastic bags to a recycling fee increase will disproportionately affect the poor since the full cost will be passed on to them.

Anything that makes people stop to think about what they are buying will have a long term impact Walfredo.. on all the categories you mentioned concern about earlier.

As for the fee raising grocery prices.. i am not so sure. my experience with stores that don’t supply bags has been that they used that as one method of controlling costs.. thereby beating out the competition on sales… the store that didn’t supply free bags in St Paul was the fastest growing grocery chain there when i left.. and for good reason. There were no lightweight plastic bags available there at all,.. you could buy paper or reusable bags or heavy plastic insulated bags. i still carry one of those in my car.

I have got to say this..

pull up your big boy panties and just get with it.

There is room in your jeans for a sting bag… and plenty of room in your jacket pocket for a nylon bag…

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[beachdrivegirl]

Of course it is going to raise grocery prices. Where else are grocery stores going to offset the administrative costs associated with tracking and monitoring the bags… It will costs more than the $.05 of reveneue that will be generated with bags being taxed. So just like how raising fuel costs have caused our grocery costs to increase the bag tax will as well. It is pure logic.

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[RainyDay1235]

I am sure we all have many human rights that are being violated right now – not getting FREE plastic bags isn’t one of them.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

I am not sure where you get the idea that there will be such huge adminstrative costs connected with tracking bag use. The bags will just become another inventory item .. among all the others they already are programmed to track.

but if their costs really do exceed the 5cents a bag.. then i suspect they will offset the administrative costs with what they are currently paying for the bags they won’t be using any more…

that grocery prices will go up as a result is only logical if you ignore the reduced cost for providing bags.

you know, one of the costs of doing business they are already passing along to the customer…

those bags aren’t free.. you pay for them in your grocery bill.

the majority of tracking and administrative costs are already built into their inventory systems. The bags just become one more item in inventory.

but you are right, thee will be administrative costs.. to the city.. and those will be paid for by the fee.

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[WSMom]

Having spent a few days in Florida where there is no easy recycling program, I came to appreciate how much I take for granted the efforts of our local government to make it easy for us to be green. You can’t imagine how wrong it felt to throw newspaper, glass and cans into the trash, but there was no where else for me to put it. No recycle bins anywhere! I am now so well trained that I really felt bad for those poor Floridians that there local government wasn’t helping them recycle. Perhaps they feel bad for us that we have high garbage rates? My point is that we are more likely to change our habits if either our pocketbook is negatively effected or the change is made easy for us by, for instance, giving us a nice big rolling bin to put our paper, glass & plastic in. I’ve admired folks with their reusable bags at the grocery for awhile now, and everytime I dismissed the effort in my mind as too much organizational skill for me to be able to pull if off. Now I’m getting more serious about running back to my car to get my bags. I think it is important, even if it’s a little thing.

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[JoB]

WsMom.. that was also my experience…

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