Search Results for 'WO'

[Ken]

Dinesh D’Souza is a professional and profligate liar. Hitchens is a drunk who could use a good editor who can lock him out of his PC when he is on a bender.

Atheism or religion should have no effect on the observable and provable building blocks the theory of evolution is based on.

The Theory of Evolution, the Theory of Gravity and Nuclear Theory are all equally supported by science, observation and experimentation.

None of these theories are set in stone and it is unlikely any of them can be. Certainly not in our lifetimes. That does not mean they are on the par with the kind of nonsense most of us have come up with after too many shots of tequila. In science, a Theory is a framework which divides what we know from what we do not yet know and allows each sub segment of a complex problem to be subject to intense study and experimentation. It is called a theory because at any moment, a single reproducible experiment could change any one branch of the framework and require an entirely new set of experiments, if we find an anomaly that does not fit. Multiple holes in what we know, however, does not automatically reverse or negate the parts of the theory which we do know.

Yet that does not mean that the research and engineering that are based on these theories can be rejected out of hand whether that rejection is based on religion, superstition or limited understanding of the math.

Those who reject the theory of gravity tend to self limit due to the dangerous experiments they choose. (Ironically, these are often chronicaled in the “Darwin Awards”.)http://www.darwinawards.com/

Those who disbelieve nuclear physics are often not harmed by this disbelief since they cannot comprehend enough of the theory to formulate experiments that could harm them. 90% of the work in the field is done with a computer or a pencil anyway.

If those who disbelieve the theory of Evolution were willing to forgo the scientific and engineering advances made within that framework, I might have a bit more respect for their position.

Vaccines, genetics, and most of current medical treatment would not have been possible without those researchers who worked within that framework.

Agriculture would be a very different operation without the scientific advances in genetic modification and veterinary medicine.

(most of this rant deleted.)

I don’t have time to do a good job of it and it has been done over and over again. Anyone with questions read this link.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

Those of you who feel the genesis account is literal, no amount of my explaining it to ya like a ten year old is going to help either of us.

If I thought it would do any good to beg you not to vote based on that belief, I would be doing so now.

The mainstream religions both protestant and catholic understand the Book of Genesis to be allegory and very similar to the creation myths of nearly a dozen precursor religions that we know of. Those sects and denominations which require a literal belief in the bible, are also those who do not believe in Democracy or the separation of church and state.

The fundamentalist, the snake handler, the prosperity huckster and dominionist flavored con men will all tell you I am the tool of the devil for suggesting reason and science should over-rule faith.

But the truth is, I don’t give a rats patoot what you believe as long as you stop trying to inject it into either the decision making process of the country or the educational system at any level.

Only those with books to sell are trying to change your mind. Science does not care one whit as to what your religious beliefs are as long as you quit trying to call it science.

I am happy to see that some of you prefer reason with your conservatism. It means there is hope that you can take your party back once you realize how far is has gone from where you are.

A few not so random quotes from my archive:

I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.

— Barry Goldwater

“In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!”

— Homer Simpson

“The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees,” “Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them.”

— Michael Scanlon ,memo, read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee.

Some say being thoughtful is old fashioned. If so then I guess I’m just a caveman, if they existed – which they didn’t!

— Ned Flanders

[JoB]

I just finished

Shadow of the Silk Road by Colin Thubron

It was an incredible read, floating back and forth between historical sites and current reality. it was published in 2006 in England and written some time after 2004 as he references The World trade Center and Iraq invasion several places in the book during local conversations.

You may wonder what it has to do with evolution… and i can only say it spoke to me of the evolution of religion and society in a way i hadn’t heard before.

[JoB]

i gave shotweed my back two days ago// i will do more tomorrow:)

[JoB]

Ken, thank you for the link to to the Wikipedia segment on the wedge. I finally had time in the wee hours to go back and read it. And thank you Wes for your thoughtful questions. And thank you House… what thoughtful post.

I got distracted by questions of faith.. which i don’t think belong in the evolution/creationism debate as it is currently framed but which i can never resist as they are of the heart.

Who knows if Darwin got it “right”. We can’t refute what he observed… but as science learns more about the world we live in and discovers more.. we find that most early science got it mostly right.

What he got dead on was that in different micro-environments (for want of a better word), similar creatures turned out differently…

What is evolution? To me this is simply every living creature and anything created by them adapting to the changes in their world.

What proof is there of evolution? Well, House nailed that one if there is proof… we can actually watch microorganisms “evolve” when we introduce new stimuli into their environment. It is certainly logical to assume that if we do it on a micro level.. it also occurs on a macro level.

When did you realize evolution was true and why? Like House, i grew up in the woods with a family that was heavily tied to a home farm. I listened to breeding discussions in the kitchen and saw evidence that selected breeding worked. I saw the wild creatures that tried to coexist with that farm.. and watched as “pests” became “resistant” to the attempts to destroy them. It simply made sense to me. We use evolution to our own benefit and call it breeding. Why wouldn’t the rest of the creatures on earth have similar mechanisms for survival? I was 12 when i first confronted the question on an intellectual basis.

If any creature is to survive it would have to be able to adapt to the changing reality of our world.

What i find curious, is that we always assume that man is at his highest level of intelligence and awareness right now. We (our modern civilization) is not alone in this. I am certain that Michelangelo could conceive of nothing more glorious than the world he lived in.

Yet, archaeological evidence is destroying the idea of some sort of time line of civilization daily. What they find in current excavations in the desserts of Asia is that there have been many civilizations and they all had contact with one another long before we thought was possible.

We are arrogant to impose our standards on the skeletons we find… arrogant enough at one time to destroy anything which didn’t agree with our concept of civilizaton… what the Taliban did to far more than just “graven images” or what the English did to artifacts in Africa. We can only wonder at how much evidence was destroyed by those who didn’t want their interpretation challenged.

What is.. is as real as anything gets for us… how we look at those realities changes drastically depending upon the information available to us.

What i find frightening about the current debate… if it can be seen to be one.. is how far those who don’t want their interpretation challenged will go to deny the rest of us the information to make our own decisions about those interpretations.

[tigger]

Dana Henrickson of DMH Design (www.dmhdesign.net) does excellent work.

[TheHouse]

Ahhh, one of my favorite discussions!

You’d be foolish to dismiss evolution as a basic force on any group of organisms. Any organism, including humans, typically adapt to their surroundings for survival. If you examine human beings over generations, you can see signs of evolution (height, visual characteristics, etc). Sometimes organisms evolve subtlety over thousands of years and sometimes due to genetic mutations they can occur very quickly.

Creationism and Evolution cannot fairly be compared. People can believe in both, although I personally accept evolution, but have a hard time committing to Creationism.

An interesting point to bring up is that the very thing that proves Evolution will over time be its greatest oppressor….SCIENCE.

Science and technology actually work to thwart evolution. If left in our natural state, many of us would have our wisdom teeth growing into our skulls essentially killing us. Many of us would die from basic diseases at young ages. Many of would not be able to reproduce without the little blue pill. Many of us could not conceive children without in vitro treatments. These are all examples of “Natural Selection” that are thwarted b/c of modern medicine and technology and those people now live and reproduce carrying those genetic traits on to the next generation. This essentially makes it difficult for us to become a genetically stronger population in many aspects.

Now that I have that off my chest, I will answer Wes’s questions:

1) Evolution is defined by be as the changes (both positive and negative) in an organism from one generation to the next…like I stated above, sometimes they might be subtle and take time to see, sometimes they happen in one generation.

2) There is proof all around the world of evolution. The easiest example of evolution appears in bacteria. Everyday there are dozens of antibiotics that are rendered useless because the drug resistant strains of the bacteria are the ones that get to multiply and therefore become the dominant strain. This is the Cliffs Note version of course. I could explain in detail if you need me to.

3) I didn’t realize evolution at one point in time. Instead, it was something that adopted over time by observing animals and nature (spending time in the woods). I don’t claim that my method is scientific, but it I understand it because it is something I can observe and is rational to me. I also studied religion (Judaism & Catholicism) and found it to be based on faith. Faith cannot be observed and to me is not rational. I believe that we’ve discussed this in the past…many people believe that religion adds value to their lives and is positive, while many believe that it is a great oppressor.

One thing that evolution does not answer is who or what created the universe…..that is how every debate ends and neither side can answer with 100% certainty….that’s because we cannot comprehend it!

[ephonk]

I have a large but troublesome kitchen space that I am about to remodel. The same awkward trouble spots keep popping up with every stab I take at it. I’ve had input from Home Depot guys, cabinet builders and one interior designer, but I still don’t have confidence in the current best plan.

The one thing I haven’t done is actually lay out cash for someone whose core skill is designing kitchens. If it gives me a plan I have confidence in, it’s worth it. So, can anyone recommend an architect/kitchen designer?

[Aim]

Todd, you’re in exactly the neighborhood we want to be in. I would be ALL OVER this one if we hadn’t decided a short time ago that our next move will be into something we own. We are very very near you and pay $715/mo for a 1k sqft in a 4-plex with amazing neighbors.

We’d love to be in a house, but we really can’t justify paying more than the crazy-low rent we currently have unless we buy. And our landlord is fabulous, as well.

It would be nice to meet others in the neighborhood though. Maybe we can arrange to bring our respective spouse/partners and hit the next WSB meetup…

[Ken]

My home security company eats pedigree at a rate of about 50 lbs every two weeks.

Just for your info, I listened in on a few pitches for ADT when new people were moving into the town houses in Highpoint.

That is one terrifying place those people were moving into.

I wonder when it happened? I have been here across the street for 7 years and it looks nothing at all like the scary place the ADT salesman was describing.

Btw: never get a Husky for a watch dog. They are worthless. Mine never met a stranger but will guard a squeaky toy all day. The lab and the lab mix have to do all the watchdogin that happens around here.

[JoB]

i like that idea, but Obama still wants to be top dog and his linear thinking wouldn’t make things work out so well if he isn’t.

I have impishly thought of a Clinton/Clinton ticket.

Bill is charming… He charmed the pants off world leaders when it was his watch… She could keep him busy enough to keep him out of the way of predatory females…he will be there advising her anyway (whether she wants him to or not)… and he too would hit the ground running.

and.. he would help keep hillary safe because if they shot her he’d be presdient:)

just a thought… Yes, it is saturday night and some of us want to play ;-)

[JoB]

acemotel, you asked a direct candidate centered question and i will answer it in the spirit it was asked… what i think and why.

at this point i don’t trust Obama because he is selling his charisma as though it was the only thing he really had to offer.

His policies, when he personally gets to them are crafted to apply to too broad a spectrum of the populace to actually mean much. And he is just plain too good at sound bites. If i heard him actually give me something more substantial in addition.. i don’t think i would mind so much.. but i don’t.

He is bending over backwards to not be a champion of the little guy so that he will be liked by middle class America and i want someone who will bend over backwards to be a champion of the little guy so he will lead middle class America.

Hillary has a history of doing just that. And i find that inspirational.

I don’t think it is inherently bad to have an inspirational leader but i want to be inspired to purpose… and i don’t see that with Obama.

What i see is that he is good at articulating vision… and that he has mass appeal… and that is pretty impressive…but i am not so sure i see leadership.

I agree that the men of the world would much rather see a black man as President of the US than a woman… but over half of the world is not male. The female half, especially those in underdeveloped countries… already know and trust Hillary. She has been actively working for them for years.

Aside from that, she is actually very well known and respected by most of the world already… and she got that respect the good old fashioned way… she earned it. Take a good look at where she has been internationally. it’s pretty impressive.

I agree that we need to change our international image… i just think there is a better way to do it:)

[acemotel]

JoB, Although not recognized by the US, I have dual citizenship and spend a bit less than half the year in urban EU locations in my business.

My opinion draws from my own personal experiences, granted, and my anecdotal reading and conversing that convinces me Obama would generate a newfound respect on the international stage.

I don’t know of any diplomatic trips, nor do I know his religious parentage. His race is a factor, of course. I suspect a black man would be more credible than a woman of any stripe in some Middle Eastern countries. (please be gentle! If you believe otherwise, I would love to know why and how.)

As it is, the US (or more precisely, our president) is the laughing stock of the mainstream foreign press. Someone will surely find an exception, but that’s a point not worth debating…..

Regarding “charisma” I don’t see the Obama campaign spawning a Hoffer “True Believer” movement, do you? I see his words stirring people, affecting them, perhaps moving them. I don’t see his words calling people to blindly follow.

Charisma aside, is it inherently suspect to have an inspirational leader? Has it been such a long time since we’ve had any heroes that we no longer trust visionaries? Do you prefer Clinton because she’s pragmatic rather than inspirational? Or do you prefer Clinton because you don’t trust Obama’s charisma, which is not easy to define?

[Anonymous]

Acemotel – thanks for backtracking on the grocery cart opinions. I might be one of those people you’re looking at. First, I know I am fat. I wasn’t as a child until I was abused. Then as an adult I maintained pretty well until I got a chronic illness and became forced to live a mostly sedentary lifestyle. Recently a new medication made me gain 30 pounds on top of what I was. I would never have the cart you described, but when someone asks me to pick up dessert or if I have a craving for something totally fattening, I just cringe when I’m at the store picking it out. I know what people are thinking.

And when my kids were teenagers it was even worse. They’re both so skinny you could blink and miss them. They could eat anything but I was still the one people looked at purchasing it. Of course I know I couldn’t get my size without a high percentage of chocolate, but illness, medication and emotional issues have made their contributions as well. So thank-you for not saying something out loud. I already know it and feel bad enough.

[acemotel]

Jan, I do wish they would sell those brownies in packages of one or two. :-)

Kayleigh, you go, girl! You are a much better human being than I am. In my next life, I will hope for a richly textured interior life, to keep my thoughts inside my own head and my eyes on my own cart!

What a nice afternoon to take all our variously-sized bodies outside….

[Anonymous]

My wishful thinking still wants a Hillary/Barack ticket. I feel like whomever is president next is going to have so much work on their hands fixing things, that hope won’t even have a chance to play out. Hillary has the brains and the experience to accomplish that. Not to mentions the ovaries to make hard choices and not care if she’s popular or liked. People have already formed their opinion on that so she can just go about her business and get to work.

Meanwhile, Barack could be running around the world using his “charisma” to restore global relationships. All the while gaining experience and knowledge of the job, putting himself in position to take over in 8 years.

[Magpie]

This is a great thread…I think there are many folks who will vote for a woman because she is a woman and many who will vote against a woman because she is a woman..I remember reading that when women were finally given the vote that would mean no more war..we know that didn’t happen, because, unfortunately, they still went to their menfolk for guidance. (I wish I could find the letter from Boeing in 1949 that my mom received. (I’m paraphrasing) which stated thank you for applying but we don’t hire women for these positions (yes, she was totally qualified.)

In these historic times, we can take a stance (except those of us who could not causus..stupid system)and vote for the best candidate. Yes, I am for Hillary, but I remember the first couple of years of the her husband’s presidency..he lost the house, things were kind of in shambles)..seems to me that she would have had some on the job training that none of the other candidates have had on how to get things done…I think we’ll have an idea by the end of the day on March 4. It is really great to have all of the options we have this year. And, yes, I believe in stream of consciousness………

[Anonymous]

Wes – I will get to some of your suggestions eventually, or at the very least check into them. Not to be dismissive, but one of my medications really affects my eyesight so my reading has become limited. And just for a little background, I was raised from birth in a very fundamentalist baptist family. We had a lovely painting of hell above our fireplace, lest we forget what might await us. Wasn’t allowed any contact with any one who might be considered “secular”. I was punished for doubting or asking any questions. So I read just about anything and everything I could get my hands on from “god is a woman” to “understanding Islam” , to “the origins of satan”. And yes, even the Bible more than once.

Nothing ever “spoke” to me, for lack of a better word. I’m curious. I like to understand people and how they think and believe and act. All sides of the coin, if you will. But for myself, I genuinely don’t get it. It just does not make sense to me to believe in anything mythical. In fact I find it kind of silly. I would however, defend anyone’s right to have those beliefs if only they would stop using them to try and control my life.

[Wes]

JT and NewResident, can i suggest Ravi Zacharias’ book, Can Man Live Without God? He answers and goes into depth some of what atheist thinkers have asked and said. Bertand Russel, Nietzche (sp?) and also What’s So Great about Christianity? by Dinesh D’Souza, who has debated Hitchens a lot and not just on religious topics either.

I have also been meaning to read god is not great, and hope to this year.

Also, I appreciate your honesty in saying that the book perhaps wouldn’t change a Christians mind anymore than the Bible would change yours. Great honesty there.

[Anonymous]

I just started that book. It was recommended from my Dad. I agree that it would be a great read for everyone. From what I understand, it sheds light on another way of perceiving things.

My daughter’s father is extremely religious and, naturally, influencing our girl a great deal already in her young age. I am trying to educate myself thoroughly with knowledge other than what he believes in. Ideally, I would like my daughter to have insight to all possibilities when she is ready to decide what faith, if any, she will choose to follow. Do you have any other good read recommendations?

[Anonymous]

NewResident – I’m half way through God is not great. As an atheist, it provides real clear cut facts to support what has been a lifelong gut feeling for me, ie: there is no god(s). Then goes on to explain, again with specific examples, of how this belief system harms the world. I feel it is a good read for everyone. Not that it will change the mind of Christians any more than the bible can change my mind, but perhaps it could alter the way in which some people practice their faith.

[Wes]

NewResident

Thanks for the links, but I was looking more for your answers in these areas. I went to public schools for 20 years so these definitions I am aware of. The purpose of the questions were to get your opinion in your words and why.

[Wes]

I would agree that to shut out science becasue of one’s faith is very stupid indeed. I think that both can co-exsist wonderfully.

I am also positive that I will be the overwhelming minority here as I do believe that God (that is the God of the Bible) has created everything.

Before the barage of questions begin I have some myself.

What is evolution?

What proof is there of evolution?

When did you realize that evolution was true and why?

Cheers!

[JanS]

New Res…tall is good. I’m 5’4 (old age shrinkage, used to be a bit taller – lol), ex-hubby is 5’7….daughter is 5’8. and struggles to maintain a low weight because of comments her dad made when she was a teenager, and because society, even doc charts,say she weighed too much for her size.

Me? I just need to grow about 4 inches, and my weight would even out…hahahaha. We all need to love ourselves as we are. A rule to live by…never take anything personally, whether it’s a wolf whistle, or some jerk telling us to eat more because we’re so thin ( not even in my dreams). What those people feel is not about us, it’s about them, and what they feel internally. Not taking things personally is a hard thing to do, but certainly makes life easier..

[JoB]

one last thought for those who may be lurking on this thread… i don’t think it is a question of them versus us… i just think men and women are different and think differently.

i know that guys know that… i just don’t think most of them see the way we think is valuable and a viable alternate way to look at things yet.

in my daughter’s case, her professor gets that she has something valuable to contribute because of the “weird” way she thinks.. but has not yet realized that his reluctance to let women work out their own way of thinking may be the reason the department keeps losing female phd candidates.

it will be easier of the next woman who refuses to compromise.. but not easy.

It’s not something that can or will change overnight. but it can never change fast enough for those of us living it.

[JoB]

charlabob… you stated my sentiments exactly,

“I even believe kids should be taught critical thinking, no matter where it leads them”.

I know my mom wasn’t so happy about where mine took me… but i think she got over it:)

i am appalled by ken’s stats… that is truly frightening.

I really don’t understand why so many of our nation’s religious are afraid of science and critical thinking. Is their faith in their fellow christians so weak that they don’t believe you can think critically and/or scientifically and still have faith? or do they simply think like the catholic church once did (and would like to now) that ignorant and uninformed people are easier to control?

i don’t know. i do know it is possible to have a never ending curiosity about the world we live in and respect for scientific evidence without losing faith. the world is such a miraculous place.