Why healthcare over education?

[kootchman]

elikapedia… you didn’t pay a dime for mine.

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[miws]

So, it sound like we agree, that trade assocs. are basically unions for corporations.

And, I dare say, for the most part, corps have the big bucks to be “heard” on their own, unlike the middle class, that doesn’t.

Similar, in my mind, as to how the corps dump more bucks into political campaigns, than unions.

Mike

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[miws]

kootch, I don’t have time to go back through your postings, but didn’t your kids go to parochial school?

If so, elikapedia and others, really, did pay for that, in the sense that taxpayers end up paying more, to make up for the fact that churches don’t pay taxes.

Mike

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[JoB]

JV..

LOL… so, in your alternate universe, the healthcare industry lobbyists aren’t an outside corrupting influence but teacher’s unions are…

planetary influence…

teacher’s unions .. pluto

healthcare industry lobbyists.. jupiter

and yes, i am well aware that pluto no longer qualifies as a planet..

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[JoB]

kootch

“Graduation rates are up 20% since the city of NY instituted charter schools. In a mere ten years… a 50% increase in graduation rates.”

yes, graduation rates do go up in charter schools..

just like they do in private schools

but you haven’t given me the figures for the rise in graduation rates in regular public schools as a result of the “competition” of charter schools in the area.. have you?

i wonder why that is?

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[JoB]

kootch..

it was so sweet of you to make the case for unions

” They help to articulate the positions of their members in large enough numbers to be heard.”

i couldn’t have put it better myself

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[redblack]

JV: it’s pretty simple, and it seems obvious to me that health comes first, education comes second. or do you want your kids catching tuberculosis when they go to school? head lice? pneumonia? if your kids go to school with kids whose parents can’t afford to get them to the doctor…

kootch: i don’t give a shit what FDR or george meany said about government unions. they are there to protect those workers’ wages and benefits in scenarios exactly like this one! we now have a bunch of teabagging freepers running around trying to norquist the government because they’re too selfish to care about the communities around them.

what’s really funny is that you guys are attacking those unions and demanding that they go away so that you can cut teachers’ salaries and benefits.

can you see how teachers’ might not be so enamored with that idea?

maybe you guys should stop being so strident in your altruistic quest to cut your taxes – oops! – i mean better the nation’s education system.

’cause you guys only care about the nations’ children, right?

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[JV]

Red, we aren’t dealing with an imaginary system, we are dealing with they HC and EDU systems currently in place. I’d rather go to a decent school with head lice or TB than go to a crappy school and learn nothing for 12 years.

Big loveable unions pretend to be the big protector of teachers, but they are really just protecting the bad ones. Again, we want to pay good teachers more and fire the bad ones. I can see how the bad ones have a problem with that. And anybody who has a political interest in keeping their membership numbers high.

Clean up the system.

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[JoB]

JV

here’s an article that speaks to why healthcare needs reforming…

i don’t really expect you to read it..

but it makes a really valid point

http://tinyurl.com/dx6exbl

it’s another of those pieces from naked capitalism

Profiting from market failure

how todays capitalists bring bad things to life.

here’s the relevant quote for you although i would encourage you to read the entire article

“in the health insurance market. Those with power avoid risking capital on innovative solutions that might expand insurance to the tens of millions of Americans without it. The same high priests of capitalism erect ever more complex, unreadable insurance policies supported by ever more withering and costly administrative procedures that, when combined, perpetuate a huge market failure: only a small percentage of premium dollars actually going to pay for care. Insurance markets go to war with customers in ways that increase, not diminish, the odds that folks who think they have coverage actually don’t.”

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[JoB]

JV..

“Big loveable unions pretend to be the big protector of teachers, but they are really just protecting the bad ones.”

so JV.. do you contend that the majority of teachers are bad and need to be fired or just those you think are the bad ones who are being protected while the union protects the rest of those teachers who are still underpaid and overworked?

just asking

though i will take your answer offline ..

i’d like to save my phone a friend for an opinion i haven’t already heard

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[JanS]

THmmm. Not personally involved w/head lice or TB, but have been extremely involved lately w/pneumonia. No, You DO NOT want to pick this option over education. Children and older adults suffer the worst. I literally thought I would die. If you would actively choose that for your child, well, you might need some remedial training in parental love. That ‘s being nice, JV.

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[kootchman]

No miws, you can have the WEA as a trade association for 81,000 teachers… but not as a collective bargaining unit. See todays PI..read the position of the candidates… read the discussion.. BOTH candidates level of comfort with the PS system. One is bolder, one is like you… more money.. for more of the same. Remember, Citizens United? You brought that on yourselves. It just became obvious the vote selling by unions, and the hundreds of millions in electing their chosen bargaining partners was bankrupting state after state after state…. with no regard or care for either the taxpayer or even competing state programs. The are perfectly willing to run down YOU for their benefits.

You enjoy the the library. Here’s a little history for ya. WE passed the Seattle Parks levy. ALL of us. what did city council do? They pulled the parks line item budget and cut it. Now all levies are time limited. when the Parks levy expired, did the city restore the budget cuts? Noooo. Now the parks are less funded then when the levy was passed. The City Council intends to cut 10 million from the library budget. The levy is to take up slack. When the levy expires, there is nothing in the levy that says..”this levy shall not replace the cities line item budget nor shall the city cut the budget to libraries. Library funding levels shall remain constant as a percentage of the city budget. So… like the parks, when the levy expires.. we will be in worse shape than ever. Or we will have to pass another levy… its the city version of no budgets and continuing resolutions to run the federal government…. how’s that working? 6 trillion dollars later with more to come in deficits. It’s a “primer” on how to bankrupt a system. Ya can’t run Parks, Schools, Libraries on levies. Does the levy gaurantee increase hours? No. Does it mandate use for child education, No. Does it dedicate funds to content acquisition, No… it puts the libaray system on a perpetual cycle of crisis levy funding… bet that didn’t catch your eye did it? That’s the homelss plan for the city.. they can live in the library and use the bathrooms during the day and sleep in tents at night. what I got form my tour of the libraries? Good job… now lets keep the funding secure … insist a constant funding source, not levy routlette.

Where is that 10% library budget cut going? You guessed it. To meet city pension and benefit plans. The library system will live on levy life support, not as a city commitment. Now, passing a levy for libraries is fine.. they are supposed to be for things like major capital improvements as the last library levy was. NOT to replace steady funding form the city budget. Will knee jerks understand the complexities of that 5 card monty scheme? Noooo all they hear is “funding for the library is good”. Your valued library systems is going to be made less funding secure.

I am voting against it. It is structured to create levy crisis so that the formula for libraries and parks is an endless series of levies. Hell of a way to run a city budget. It’s right out of the Democratic playbook.. wrap an emotional appeal in a hidden intent. Now… if the mayor and city council… wasn’t buying union votes…. and the various unions and guilds weren’t being pandered to… and selling votes. You could get increased support and a stable tax revenue base to fund libraries. But.. it’s another Democratic bottom of the deck shuffle.

No JoB no one said all the teachers are bad… but the crap ones have to go. AND THEY DO EXIST!! And unions protect them. After tenure… the teacher is forever given job security… An entire school year with a poor or marginal teacher? Oh the agony.. for the students. I agree, we should not overwork them.. good heavens a 6 hour and 15 minute classroom presence and three months off is terrible. Ask teacher then, if they want to to a an 11 month school year… see what they say… It’s the Euro model employment they want not a full working year.The kids aren’t out picking crops and hoeing the vegetables anymore. The school year was designed for an agriculture society that disappeared 100 years ago. A really, really bad teacher isn;t sent packing… they are transferred to the schools with the least parental involvement, The worst go to the worst performing schools to put in their hours… screw the kids.

Or blather like this “only a small percentage of premium dollars actually going to pay for care” Health insurance premium pay outs… lets see what is true … the loss ratio of private health insurance is.. 92%… the highest of all insurance coverages. Now.. how about this? Obamacare… no federal program shall have a federal employee overhead that exceeds 10% …. when in actuality every federal government program takes 40% or more off the top. Never saw a thing in Obamacare that restricted the overhead of federal employees did ya? Hell no!

Too complicated for you? It’s supposed to be. That way you don’t what the hell you are voting for. It’s pinata’ programs.. the pinata LOOKS big… looks grand… but then ya are blind folded and penny candy falls out…

what say you JV? JoB.. read about the infamous NYC public schools “rubber rooms” where teachers spend years and years reading magazines and watching television because it’s too epensive for the city schools to fire them. Over 5,000 NYC school teachers are in five rubber room complexes througout the city.. some are there for sexual misconduct with students in grade schools! who cares? As long as they are paying dues the teachers union is fine with it.

The Pinata.. is worth more then the content it delivers…

JV is dead one… as long as it pays dues.. the unions want them. Good, indifferent or horrid… as long as the dues are paid..unions will protect them. The 16 year old kid that just lived through insufferably bad teaching for two years… ya wonder why they walk out the door? i/3 of them do nationally. The vast majority minority kids… the feeder systems for out prisons is public schools. It ain’t money.. Ingram gets as much (less actually) than Rainier Beach…. one is a feeder to college and it ain’t Rainier Beach.

The Seattle times endorsed the republican candidate for state attorney general.. why? Because the need an AG that will support the government reforms that are needed and he is best qulaified to take on the union litigations to follow. Redblack… you are trying to hold back a rolling tide… we are busting civil servant unions death grip on government spending agendas.. it breaks my heart. whose winning? Public unions went to the same place private unions did… greed made them undesirable, damaging to the system they work in, and irrelevant.

You may not give a shit about FDR or George Meany… but you better care about the TEA party and taxpayers…. cause they are in open rebellion.

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[JoB]

kootch..

what exactly do you think trade unions are but collective bargaining units?

i get that you think there should be totally different standards and rules for individuals and for businesses and that those rules should favor businesses…

but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck

chances are it’s a duck

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[kootchman]

I was responding to a miwism…. to wit… trade associations are the kith and kin of unions. Civil work forces are bankrupting cities, counties and states… they have to reckon first because they can’t turn on moeny printing presses… and borrow from foreign governments. That’s right.. there ARE different sets of rules for private business …. it’s the engine.. governments are taking up more and more of the freight. Here’s a factoid for ya.. in 1930 the average family worked less than a day FSCL (fed, state, county, local) taxes. Today… 2012.. it will be 99 days, The average family spends more on FSLC taxes then it does on housing and food in any given year…. that’s not working.

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[metrognome]

let’s see … 1930 … no federal highways, few state hiways, minimal municipal street system; no federally-supported services such as sewage treatment, seaports, airports, public hospitals, farn subsidies; not much of a federal parks system; no Social Security or Medicare or OSHA or other job protections (60 men died building Coulee Dam,) etc. Yep, the good old days, fer sure.

Can you cite some source for the allegation in your last sentence?

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[kootchman]

Is it worth 1/3 of your life for the benefits ya have? Well? I would dump SS is a second.. and anyone under the age of 45 should be demanding it! Rioting to have 14 per cent of their gross income restored so they can actually do something with it. Not give interest free loans to a government that will probably not even repay the principal.. in fact.. they count on it…that cannot restrain spending and forces us to give them a free operating loan. So bad is it.. that SS for the first time is borrowing to meet current obligations.. yep.. it’s into deficit borrowing! In 2010 it went negative. Here is the status of that great Ponzi scheme… calling this an achievment?

(CNSNews.com) – Social Security faces an unfunded liability of $8.6 trillion, according to the 2012 Annual Report of the Board of Trustees of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Federal Disability Insurance Trust Funds.

The $8.6 trillion in unfunded benefits Social Security is expected to pay over the next 75 years equals $73,167.83 for each of the 117,538,000 households the Census Bureau said were in the United States in 2010.

However, the report also shows that when considering the unfunded obligations over an “infinite horizon”—the period extending into the indefinite future—the $8.6 trillion shortfall balloons to $20.5 trillion.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/social-security-faces-unfunded-liability-86t-or-7316783-household

That’s an achievement?… putting the deep screws into any family or individual under the age of 45 so they can put another 25% of their income into SS . All the Gen X’rs… are you willing to put 36 Per cent of your gross income into the SS system? If ya die at 68 your heirs have nothing.. not a dime.? You got yours right metrognome screw those that follow?

Ole Jug Ears probably will call it the “Affordable Retirement Act” and it won’t be a tax.. a low yielding mandate ha ha hah…

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[JoB]

kootch..

miws had a point.

trade associations and unions are both collective bargaining units…

one works for business

the other works for workers

you can choose to put a political label on unions if you want to… I could make the case for putting a similar political label on trade associations… but that won’t change the validity of the basic comparison miws made.

what is good for the goose

is good for the gander

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[JoB]

Rant on old mighty Kootchman, rant on

sorry…

i just couldn’t resist the parody

when the mighty river crossed my mind…

it is a parody, right?

my mind is trolling for words today and catching less than usual

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[JV]

JoB, people aren’t forced to join trade associations and pay dues to them.

With the unions, after the dues are extracted, those dues are given to Dem politicians almost exclusively, so they can have their selected Dem on the other side of the negotiating table. To negotiate with OUR TAX DOLLARS.

I’m sure you can see how most Americans have awaken to this form of corruption and why they are throwing the bums out.

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[JoB]

JV..

so your real problem with unions is that the donate to democrats?

who at least traditionally supported policies friendly to workers

ROFLOL

union membership is voluntary. Nobody is forced to accept a job in a union shop…

i know it would surprise you.. but a lot of people choose a union shop simply because that union shop provides better bargaining power which means better working conditions, better pay and better benefits…

they choose a union shop because it’s in their best interests …

a lesson America is beginning to learn the hard way as working conditions deteriorate and wages and benefits fall.

destroying unions is not in the best interests of the American worker

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[elikapeka]

JoB,

Your response hit the nail on the head – the real purpose for this assault on unions is to de-fund the Democratic party. There has been a concerted effort by Republican governors to do this since the 2010 election, even though it was not a campaign issue. They continued with their assault on union rights even though in many cases, (such as the often-mentioned Wisconsin), the unions agreed to the financial concessions that were demanded.

Unlike other organizations, union members have mechanisms available to them to opt out of political spending. But that’s not good enough for the right wing – they are on a search and destroy mission. The demographics of the country are not trending well for the Republican party, and they have no new ideas, so all they seem to have left is to destroy the other side by voter suppression and cutting off as much financial support. That’s the real motive behind all this.

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[JoB]

elikapedia..

“The demographics of the country are not trending well for the Republican party, and they have no new ideas, so all they seem to have left is to destroy the other side by voter suppression and cutting off as much financial support.”

spot on.

and i think people are catching on to this charade

at least, i hope so.

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[JV]

JoB/Elik, I’m not saying all unions are bad, I’ve focused on three which have done a lot of harm to our country and to our future generations.

Government Employees Unions, United Auto Workers, and Teachers Unions.

(For the sake of clarity, I don’t have a problem with TEACHERS, just the TEACHERS’ UNIONS. I don’t want you to confuse that statement yet again.)

Please help me understand why those 3 unions are a good return on investment.

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[kootchman]

well actually, JoB a trade group cannot directly receive pensions and benefits or establish work rules. But then you should have no problem with “right to work” states. If you choose to joing the union, fine, if not fine too. Collective bargaining results in contracts with taxpayer liabiltiy. trade associations merely advocate for their members. BIG difference. The unions did not agree to the concessions.. the unions went out on illegal works stoppages.

See if I don’t pay my dues my trade association can’t close my business. If I don’t join a union, I can lose my job. One is not like the other is it?

No, JV.. that is indeed the problem, Democrats can’t distinguish between teachers and unions. They can’t see the forest.. too many trees in the way!

So, it ok that unions fund the campaigns of the very people who will negotiate their contracts with? That’s not collective bargain…that;s collusion bargaining. Ummm.. where is the representatives for the public interest? They sure aren’t at the table. Of course you will have a winning season …. if your team pays the referees and is their main source of income. Now everyone is all pissed off that Citizens United brings their set of referees to the game. Seems fairer to me.

Myabe if the Democratic Party had broader appeal, looked out for the interest of the taxpayers and didn’t act like a cheap political hooker..we wouldn’t be in this monetized warfare. But, it is as it is. I see Romney just passed Obama in the Quinnicpac polls in VA. Bain ain’t working… Bush did ain’t working.. what’s next? We know we aren’t going to hear “look at my record”.

If you look at the BIG tends… other that the pockets of urban dependency… we are a red country, not a blue one. Only where the culture of no options has taken root are the demographics “blue”.

The Wisconsin case history is not going to be rewritten here.. but they absolutely refused to make the concessions neccessary to balance the state budget. Scott Walker did exactly what he said he would. Now, that behavior is unrecognizable to Democrats.. we understand that.

I’ll take the trends… whatever states where the two run neck and neck… if there is a 5% uncommitted vote… Obama has a job approval rating of 29% … the uncommitted will vote Republican.

we got the charade.. public servants is a misnomer.. as is elected officials… neither one serves and the other is bought goods. Unions are damaging the esteem and respect for the very people the represent. That’s why they no longer represent the private sector in any meaningful way. Next to go.. Davis Bacon is in the crosshairs.

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[kootchman]

Here ya go JV…. even the die hards are coming to a vast realization that productivity, the right amount of capital, with the right skill set floats the boats. You drive off capital… no skill set is worth a damn. Throwing capital where it is not converted won’t work .. and worse… driving it permanently offshore is the kiss of economic death.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2017562941_lynne22.html

That why we did healthcare and not education reform. Enjoy the read.

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