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July 21, 2012 at 12:46 am #764359
JoBParticipantkootch…
“This year we have a chance at reforming public education… Charter Schools.”
LOL.. and will those charter schools be required to accept all students in their district? Well, no.
they will cherry pick students the same way that private schools currently do and leave the public school districts who are mandated to accept all students with even less funds to hire quality teachers than they do now.
that isn’t how you fix the public school system kootch.
that’s how you break it.
July 21, 2012 at 1:12 am #764360
miwsParticipantDoes anybody, including mike, know what he is talking about? I will never know what goes on in that head of yours…I’m not sure you know either. (If I would have posted a series of pictures maybe you would have followed the conversation better.)
Okay, folks. Let’s help JV out here.
Frankly, I’m stumped, but if we all work together, maybe we can come up with an answer to his question before the evening is over.
Then, he’ll be able to sleep well tonight.
Mike
July 21, 2012 at 1:36 am #764361
kootchmanMemberNo JoB sometimes you are wrong. As I see you didn’t see in the Harlem Charter School … it’s done by random lottery. If this is your belief, you are not informed on the issue.
What you don’t want, is to deny the truly oppressed any options. This is the subtleness of racism couched in liberalism. You will protect a “system” over the rights of a relevant education. Yes they are required to have random lottery drawings. Shame on you. This is a deliberate falsehood. Perception and opinions may vary. Bless the differences. But to tell a falsehood.. that is a different story.
Now, a parent can choose to enter the lottery.. or not. But, when the lottery attracts 3 times as many parents and students as there are places for them. This is a very telling tale. They want options, and one of them is to wait with great anxiety, hoping their child will be one rescued.
Do they cherry pick? Accepting students two, three or MORE years behind grade standards is not cherry picking. It’s reform.
Try again.
Throwing more money at a failed system is not reform, more of the same is not reform. It’s more of the same only more expensive. Yes, I would invest more in education at the moment, because while 85% of our citizens are covered by a healthcare system in need of fine tuning… our public education system is so bad… 35% don’t even graduate. Since Charter schools were initiated in NYC and underperforming schools closed… NYC has increased graduation rates an astonishing 20 per cent… that’s right 10 years ago.. NYC graduation rates were . 45%… they were 65,9 last year… the Charter Schools lifted everyones game… the traditional public schools have to fight for their students. They have options. That’s why we are against universal healthcare… we saw what “universal” education did… it decimated our young for two generations.
July 21, 2012 at 1:48 am #764362
kootchmanMemberTo preserve this system you would forgo this?
For the third year running, an all-male charter school with students from Chicago’s roughest neighborhoods is sending its entire senior class to college.
Urban Prep Academy reports that all 85 seniors graduating from the all-male preparatory school have been accepted to four-year colleges or universities, the third consecutive year an entire senior class has gotten acceptance letters along with their diplomas.
In 2010, the school sent all 107 graduating seniors directly into college or university programs for the first time.
“No other public [school] in the country has done this,” Urban Prep Academy Founder Tim King said at the time. Continuing that success in 2011 and 2012 makes the school’s performance even more remarkable.
The school also boasts an impressive “persistence” record this year–83 percent of 2010 Urban Prep graduates who went on to college have stayed there, compared to a national average of 35 percent among African-American males, according to the Chicago Tribune.
NO JoB… this is very important… this is the “cherry picked” kids profile… the actual raw material you would deny.
The school’s success has grown exponentially since its founding in 2006, when only four percent of the school’s first freshman class was reading at grade level when they entered.
YOU CALL A FRESHMAN CLASS WHERE 96% OF THE KIDS AREN’T READING AT GRADE LEVEL “CHERRY PICKING” ??? And then four years later 100% were accepted at 4 year colleges? Let the cherry picking begin!!!!!!!!
Do you REALLY want to improve the quality of life or just perpetuate a cornerstone of perpetual dependency? What place in the world would liberals have if the dependency/desperation cycle was broken? None. They fear irrelevancy.
Young, achieving, successful men capable of supporting and protecting their families, providing them healthcare, removing food insecurity, encouraging their needed participation in a better society. Hell of thing to expect from a school system.
July 21, 2012 at 2:16 am #764363
kootchmanMemberBack to kdlg…. the number one reason for infant mortality… is birth defects and premature births. That is true in the United States. The causes… as stated by CDC…. some unknown,,, others are known… drug use, fetal alcohol syndrome, genetics, and understanding nutrition, some are just bad consequences of inherited traits. BUT… better educated citizens have more power and control of those outcomes. I will pick education every time as the most important cornerstone of a healthy society. Informed people make informed choices.
July 21, 2012 at 2:43 am #764364
miwsParticipantJoB, your hottieness is paying off!
You’ve moved up to being sometimes wrong, from being always wrong!
Congrats!
Mike
July 21, 2012 at 4:22 am #764365
kootchmanMembermiws … focus, Charter schools are not cherry picking. This is an election year and it is on the ballot. If it is false, it is false. On this issue, JoB is not correct, Charter schools are public schools. Indeed most of then were formed to do just what they are doing,,taking what the PS system has caste aside, labeled unteachable, too hindered by neglectful parents, ininvolved parents, and taken the most challenged systems and students to new heights of achievement. We want good outcomes.. we HAVE to have them. Even the most modest dreams of liberal entitlements will not stand until we have productivity increases in the middle class. Education does that. There is not enough resources in the top ten per cent to achieve anything like the imaginings of the left. The top five per cent are doing fine. Perchance did you follow any of the links, read the commentary… or did you just get struck by White Knight fever again.. send us a picture. we lost a broad tax base. not because it was “taken from you”.. it was because the middle class productivity did not keep pace with a more competitive world labor market. Invest where the problem is… yes, it may mean a little intergenerational sacrifice and as JV aptly stated.. we have competing needs for limited resources. Now we can all fight over the table scraps, as we are no so engaged… or we can try and provide more sustenance to share. Licking plates in the scullery is not progressive politics.
July 21, 2012 at 6:05 am #764366
JVMemberI could counter with why did President Bush target education with No Child Left Behind instead of targeting healthcare?
JoB the answer makes my point. Because healthcare wasn’t that bad, and EDU is a national disgrace. Normally you’d tackle larger problem first…unless that larger problem owns you, then you sit down, shut the f up, cash your checks, and do as you are told.
I’ll try another analogy:
JoB has 2 cats. One is pretty healthy, and one is blind, deaf, retarded, and has no feelings in its back legs. So in your brilliance, you decide to euthanize the healthier one and instead buy a rabid wolverine. (or honey badger)
Then when people ask why you made such a poor decision, dobro says, “pay no attention to what’s going on over there…nope, no substance to that point of view, she made an excellent choice. Instead, let’s talk about how lucky we are to have this new rabid wolverine that is going to…oh sh!t, it just devoured our blind, deaf, retarded cat! Who could have foreseen such a disaster?!”
So ask yourselves. Why healthcare over education?
July 21, 2012 at 9:52 am #764367
dobroParticipantPlease leave me out of your bullsh*t analogies. You don’t have a clue what I would say in any situation and if you think you do you’re mistaken.
July 21, 2012 at 2:43 pm #764368
JoBParticipantkootch..
you cite one charter school and i am uninformed on the issue?
ROFLOL
yes, charter schools have good outcome scores.
they can also reject any child who doesn’t meet their “charter” ..
unlike public schools who must an do accept every child within their district regardless of additional cost…
nice try bucko..
but the truth is that charter schools and vouchers divert public money from public schools
July 21, 2012 at 2:49 pm #764369
JoBParticipantJV
“JoB the answer makes my point. Because healthcare wasn’t that bad, and EDU is a national disgrace. Normally you’d tackle larger problem first…unless that larger problem owns you, then you sit down, shut the f up, cash your checks, and do as you are told.”
now.. aren’t you just the cutest little thing ;->
JV.. really.. what other response is possible?
i make your point?
only in an alternate universe.
July 21, 2012 at 3:43 pm #764370
JVMemberYep, it’s simple JoB. Most people would deal with a larger, systematic problem first, unless there is an outside corrupting force. Like the teachers unions and the other things I’ve mentioned.
You should watch the documentary Waiting For Superman (no its not about Obama. It’s about education in America.)
July 21, 2012 at 4:54 pm #764371
JiggersMemberHere’s Alan Grayson’ thoughts on the republican’s health care plan…lol It’s true. video
July 21, 2012 at 6:12 pm #764372
redblackParticipantyou cons are pretty funny.
to answer an earlier question, JV, about why the country’s education system didn’t magically spruce itself up during the housing boom, if you’ll recall, that housing boom lasted exactly 3 years.
do you believe that that’s enough time to reform a universal education system that has been in decline since the 1980’s?
and do you think that maybe the unions aren’t the sole problem here? have you considered the ramification of the recent discovery that households headed by single mothers now outnumber two-parent families? any thoughts on how that might affect school districts’ abilities to teach?
and dobro nailed your analogy @33 as b.s.:
once again, this country doesn’t have a health care system, let alone one that works for all americans. just ask HMCRich. it’s a pay-for-privilege “system” that screws the country’s working poor (and the self-employed), a large chunk of whom work for the nation’s largest retailers and who are encouraged by those employers to seek medicaid if they need health care. it’s a “system” whose work force (i mean doctors, not insurance industry bureaucrats) is directly controlled by the AMA to ensure labor shortages and to protect high salaries.
so to claim that it ain’t broken is patently ignorant of what it’s like to be poor and sick in the greatest country on earth.
regarding education, it seems to me that you’re putting all of the blame on the unions without offering any kind of suggestions… suggestions like this one, which was put forth by a republican utah state senator who used to think much the way you seem to. once he started talking to teachers, he realized that simply putting the screws to the union wasn’t the answer.
you extol good teachers in post 20, but fail to acknowledge that those teachers are, themselves, most likely union members. and i know this may come as a shock, but some of them are even republicans!
my suggestion is that those who want reforms in public schools put away the pitchforks and torches and start listening to the people on the front lines. unlike corporations, unions are people, who have a say in how their organizations are run and how they negotiate.
i don’t know what to say about your snarky attacks on mike and others, JV. you seem to have a “ridicule the messenger” kind of posting style. it’s nothing new or cute or clever, it’s the lowest form of debate, and it pretty much tells me that you have no interest in conversation, let alone compromise. in fact, in reading through your posts, i can’t find a single interesting proposal or original thought. you seem to speak in generalities.
July 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm #764373
JVMemberRedblack I love teachers, but teachers unions make them worse. You can stop pretending that they are most concerned with the best interests of the kids.
So all other BS aside, why can’t you answer the question?
Why healthcare over education Redblack?
It’s only a tough question when you are trying to tiptoe around the obvious corruption that is bringing down our education system.
July 22, 2012 at 12:18 am #764374
kootchmanMemberYea JoB ? I can give you… and did give many options and charter schools to look at. redblack… ISS scores have declined for over forty years.. ever since education was federalized and state compliance to federal mandates determined their aid packages.
Give it up JoB… this is going in circles… I will rest my case on ONE statistic.. NYC… graduation rates and SAT scores both, have risen since charter schools were initiated. You can look on a map and see all the little pins…. those charter schools are in the South Bronx, Harlem, Jamaica, Graduation rates are up 20% since the city of NY instituted charter schools. In a mere ten years… a 50% increase in graduation rates. Those are for over 90% of the attendees, young men and women of color and the lowest income strata.
See JV… here’s the defining difference.. conservatives do not believe we are hopeless, perpetual dependents… we can rise to any challenge. Liberals just want da check.. and a universal marginal existence. Too dependent to be be bold. Even with the crushing debt burden…we believe our teachers CAN..given a new set of paradigms to work with. I still believe we can break the addiction cycle. Tougher love.
A dependent society cannot be a competitive society… how many times do we have to see it ?
July 22, 2012 at 12:51 am #764375
elikapekaParticipantHealth care over education? Yes, it should have been addressed first.
Every child in this country has access to a free education. Of course it has flaws, but no family will ever lose their home, wipe out their life savings or declare bankruptcy trying to get a basic education for their child.
Can’t say the same about health care. Millions of people have found themselves locked out of the health care system. If you’re not poor enough, old enough, or young enough, every single person, even those with “good” insurance, is at risk of being one catastrophe away from disaster. Max out your lifetime cap, lose your job, get hit by a bus – all kinds of ways to find yourself in need of care and unable to get it. The system desperately needed reforming. What we got is far from perfect, but a start.
July 22, 2012 at 3:20 am #764376
kootchmanMemberWell you got it.. and free crap is still crap. Now how will you pay for it? Don’t see the looming storm clouds of fiscal collapse yet? what will it take? And the education is not free.. let’s be real clear about that… we pay for it.
July 22, 2012 at 3:36 am #764377
elikapekaParticipantOh, for God’s sake, of course it’s not literally free. I refer to “free” in the sense that it is available to all children without requiring their family to foot the entire bill personally. I could just say screw it, I don’t have any kids so why should I pay for yours? But I don’t. I pay taxes because that’s how we attain a civilized society, and education is a vital part of that. Those tax dollars need to be spent wisely – there’s plenty of discussion and argument to be had about that. But that wasn’t the question of this topic. The question was why take on health care before education – I’ve given my answer and I stand by it.
July 22, 2012 at 4:32 am #764378
kootchmanMemberUnions, are, designed to collectively bargain for a share of the profits their labor creates. Governments do not make profits redblack. This is the best, most concise, and rational statement ever penned on government unions.
” Government workers, however, don’t generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money. When government unions strike, they strike against taxpayers. F.D.R. considered this “unthinkable and intolerable.””
Here are the results of Wisconsin … what an interesting read! Instead of taking 200,000 children off Medicaid, which the unions were gladly willing to do…. for more benefits. The state is in surplus,. 37 school districts avoided layoffs of teachers… It freakin’ worked!!!! A simple, small, “whoa” by the voters did the trick. They will never repeal that law… the big sticking point? The cause? Union healltcare… the sole provider (see kids, this is what a single proider means) insisted it had to raise it’s rates and the state and school districts could not seek out other insurance coverage providers.. the like magic.. pure magic.. after the election the union owned health insurance provider dropped it’s rates over 23%…. as school districts bargained with other insurers.
Politicized Civil Service. Government unions have the power to elect the management they negotiate with, so they spend heavily to elect politicians who promise them concessions. Government unions were the top political spenders, outside the two major parties, in the 2010 election cycle.
San Jose… Democratic Mayor, city council
Chuck Reed, the mayor of California’s third-largest city San Jose, said a quarter of his city’s budget now goes for retirement benefits to union workers. Voters overwhelmingly supported cutting those benefits.
Imagine .. 25 PER CENT of a municipal going to retired workers! Show me the education budgets there?
Your best interests are served by a well trained and productive young force… you pay those taxes because you will need their productivity to pay for your elder care and retirement. If 1/3 of our work force is effectively unemployable… show me the money!!
We need some basic reform. Looking backwards to an economic model of a half century ago and wishing it would come back is crazy thinking… it sure isn’t “progressive”…. it’s wishful thinking. If you want these levels of benefits.. we need a work force productive enough to pay for them… we don’t bankrupt ourselves first.. then see if we can find the money from a wishing well.
July 22, 2012 at 6:13 am #764379
miwsParticipantJuly 22, 2012 at 6:49 am #764380
kootchmanMemberWhich ones?
July 22, 2012 at 6:57 am #764381
kootchmanMemberHey the message might be getting through ! Ya need a little cash in the cookie jar before ya go on a spending spree!
62% Want Government to Focus on Economic Growth, not Fairness – The Rasmussen Report — Midday Update — July 19, 2012.
July 22, 2012 at 6:59 am #764382
miwsParticipantAny of ’em.
Any trade association that work together with big corps.
For example, when I worked in the parking biz, the company I worked for was a member of the National Parking Association.
Mike
July 22, 2012 at 8:44 am #764383
kootchmanMemberOnly belonged to one… years ago… UAMR.. mostly used if for contracts and forms and group health insurance. It was ok.. didn’t spend much money on lobbying. I have contributed to a couple of PACS for associations with bigger memberships and access, NSBA example. I think they are fine.. and necessary. They help to articulate the positions of their members in large enough numbers to be heard.
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