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October 28, 2011 at 6:45 pm #738341
waynsterParticipantJan they don’t give out Nobels for inserting foot in mouth…. if they did we know who would win it more often then not…… Kootch really using Haliburton and blackwater as examples that was dubya’s buddie Dick’s thing and did they pay taxes while in the iraq and afganistan war zones sure they did……yes its true the republicans were more interested in defeating Obama and the democrats then helping the middle class and poor…. try getting a middle class tax cut done and its guaranteed the republicans/tea party will argue that the rich will get hurt if they did help out the poor the down and out and middle to lower class tax payers and try to greate jobs rebuilding bad infrastructures like freeways and bridges….the rich wont get richer unless we use privet sector idea…. so they can line their pockets…. along with trickle down economics theory it works well……..
October 29, 2011 at 12:31 am #738342
jamminjMemberSo Obama is the problem…so what was the problem pre Obama where we were shedding jobs out our ass? As far as taxes, even lower now. for health care, who hasn’t had a increase in cost almost every year, yes even before obama.
finally some righties are getting the picture… small government actually means… hold your breath…. JOB LOSS. When it means cuts to their district and constituents… that whole thing about govt can’t create jobs… kind of stupid to say that now. Can’t create jobs, but sure can lose them. can’t have it both ways.
If you think that large corporations are sitting in their board meetings saying – ‘gosh darn, if it wasn’t for that darn Obama, we could unleash the millions we have made to our employees, hire thousands more, lower executives pay and bring jobs back to the US…. but that darn Obama, grrrrrrr’
what planet do you live on?
Do you know WHY they are hoarding money??? Because they CAN. The only responsibility that big corporations have is to its shareholders. Not to its employees, not to its customers, not to any country… but to its shareholders.
Look at the recent Apple earnings… THROUGH THE ROOF, but it didn’t meet expectations. Making billions, but not enough… so it was downgraded. How crazy is that? It’s not only crazy, it’s fuc&ed up.
When did we decide to let gamblers betting on quarterly earnings decide the fate of this country? Yes gamblers. It is no longer a longer term investment except for mom and pop. Just hope you don’t retire on the timing when your favorite fund didn’t meet expectations and wipes you out the year you decide to retire.
October 29, 2011 at 12:48 am #738343
jamminjMemberAs far as small businesses and hiring… its about customers. who’s coming through the door, who’s buying and how much. Again, always dealt with high cost of health care, nothing new.
So whats stopping our customers… either no job, or low paying job.
Working for a private small business, sorry, we don’t sit around our meetings discussing the evils of obama, if only mccain became president, we would be rolling in the money!!!!! wooohoooo!!!
NOT.
Its all about customers. And what kind of customers, paying customers. And how do you get paying customers, customers with good paying jobs.
but oops, large corporations are laying off because they are making profits?!?!?!? huh?
Working with a small firm who is used to dealing with 8+ digit budgets, the last thing we talk about is Obama when it comes to business. And this is coming from a mainly right leaning staff.
Well, they would probably be called facist, commie, hippie, etc. now a days. whatever term that fits the tea baggers (at least you have one great name to your movement).
As a small – mid size business we never ‘worried’ about taxes. What I mean by worry is that we didn’t pay attention to our effective rate (well, our accountant did that). But what we did do is that every year we made a profit, we put that DIRECTLY back into the company by years end. Wether it was employees or capital purchases for the year. While creating a great product, we also made sure that was reflected back to the company.
What we DON’T have in wall street.
So if big corporations want lower or NO taxes. How about investing FIRST in the company and country.
Taxes start at 38% for all public corporate companies. No profit, maybe some breaks to offset local tax burdens. Make a profit, if you reinvest that BACK into the company, you get a break – doesn’t have to be 100%, cuz you do have to pay some to investors. And then if you hire x number of employees per % of profit, more tax breaks. AND if you bring X number of employees from overseas to US (and keep them for 2+years) HUGE tax break (along with living wage (poverty +25% min).
Just a start, just throwing out ideas.
But this idea of just lowering taxes HOPING out of the goodness of their heart that corps will flower us with jobs and money… sorry not going to fly anymore. That dream (or nightmare as it has turned out) has gone out the door.
I guess there is one failing in Obama that we do talke about, that is the lack of the public infrastructure jobs that was promised, his lack of backbone to those fighting public job growth. That would have been a huge boon for us. But of course, govt can’t create jobs…. right?
October 29, 2011 at 3:29 am #738344
jamminjMemberSomeone in the 1% who gets it.
Thoughts on Our Federal Government, Taxes and Small Business and More
“I am not advocating that we raise taxes for everyone. I think that is a huge mistake. I do think billionaires should pay more. We have benefited the most financially from this great country, and it is the right thing to do to give more back in a time of need.
…it’s a great problem to have.”
Do I realize that after all the bureaucracy and overhead associated with running our government and the programs it creates that probably less than 50pct of tax money reaches the programs that the money is intended to support ? Yes. There is no question we are throwing good money after bad. There is no question that something needs to be done and I believe transparency will help solve this problem.
HOWEVER, if money is going to be wasted by our government, it is better that Mark Cuban, Warren Buffet’s and other mega rich people’s money be wasted than YOUR money be wasted. Agree ?
October 29, 2011 at 3:32 am #738345
jamminjMembermore:
“3. Taxes Vs Job Creation
There is an ongoing refrain from some that any increase in Taxes will have a negative impact on investment and job creation. Not true in 99.99pct of cases. Never has been. Never will be. First the .01% times where it may be true. Potentially, a person could have some amount of money less than what they need to start a company because they paid say 1k dollars more in taxes this year than they did last year. This could happen and I’m sure it has happened. but its the exception that proves the rule.
Now the rule…
People driven to succeed are driven to succeed. People driven by money are driven by money. People driven to compete, compete. We live in a country that puts an emphasis on achievement. Not just financial achievement. The ability to set goals and achieve them. We celebrate and reward those that accomplish their goals. It is part of the very fabric of what makes this country so amazingly unique.
Those of us who are driven by money have a number that we strive for. People like me. (If you want to learn more about people like me, read this). We want to be a millionaire. Once we become a millionaire, some of us want more. Some of us don’t. But once you hit the first number you begin to make decisions in your life about how you might get to the next number or just use what you have to make your life (and possibly the life of others) better.
Others set goals and define success and achievement in any number of ways. In no cases do any of them examine the tax rate. In fact, I would be willing to bet that 99pct of us completely ignore the tax rate. Why ? Because we know that the rewards we all value the most came as the result of our efforts.
SOMETHING THAT NO TAX RATE IS GOING TO TAKE AWAY FROM US.
October 29, 2011 at 3:33 am #738346
jamminjMember” I have NEVER met a motivated person who has said they would not chase their goals because of tax rates.”
October 29, 2011 at 3:56 am #738347
jamminjMemberlove this idea:
4. Tear Down Foreclosed Houses.
There is no question that the housing market has a huge impact on the economy. There is also no question that the housing market is one of supply and demand. There is also no question that the government owns hundreds of thousands of foreclosed homes and growing. Every day those homes cost money to maintain and service. It’s expensive and they hold down housing prices. The solution ? Tear them down.
Tearing down foreclosed homes by the hundreds of thousands will be the ultimate infrastructure project. Thousands of jobs bulldozing and clearing homes. Reduction in inventories. Reduction in overhead to service the vacant homes. The quicker you take the homes off the market, the sooner the market for new and used homes will recover and prices will go up. I had been planning on blogging about this several months ago, but Time.com beat me too it . http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2090368,00.html .
Bottom line is that best way to build up the housing market is to tear down every foreclosed home owned by government agencies. It will not only energize the housing market, but the process of tearing down the homes will create jobs for less educated/skilled labor.
October 29, 2011 at 7:26 am #738348
kootchmanMemberjamminj… just like the cash for clunker program? All it did was raise the used car prices for those that most needed “used car prices. Funny how that works.. I turned in a perfectly good 5 year old truck..and when they ran the silica through the block and killed it… I was thinking… mobility to and from a job is a vital concern to getting someone into the job market. The also coud have kept the vehicles in service for folks on public assistance that needed transportation… The market value of housing is probably now “true” value. What inflated the housing costs was the subsidized credit. For a young couple, this is a great time to buy. A speculative bubble burst..that’s all that happened…. destroying all that inventory? Let the banks get the foreclosures done with and put them on the market for whatever they will yield. Yikes… talk about sustainable building..tearing down useable inventory to create shortages of housing to increase prices… ??
October 29, 2011 at 7:33 am #738349
kootchmanMemberAs to I have never met someone who has ever turned down a business opportunity because of tax rates? I have.. lots of em’. When you measure the effort and the reward to start and operate a new biz… been there, am there my friend. Maybe at 40 with mouths to feed, mortgages to pay, etc… I would have worked for less than 100K on my capital. Today? No way. I’d rather go fishing.
show me ONE government worker that creates wealth? Goes to work every morning, starts his machine, adds value to a raw material or a finished good.. and creates more profits.. every day. Government is an overhead, expense. Some is neccessary but when it grows faster than the overall economy… no no no.. it is by definition unsustainable. If more government workers meant more wealth creation… just close the doors on every business and have 100 full employment… we all go to work for the government… now,..,where would those taxes come from?
“” I have NEVER met a motivated person who has said they would not chase their goals because of tax rates.”?
Enough money I would be motivated… to “earn a living” isn’t enough motivation. Been there done that… seen it many many times. Ya gotta tempt me to take risks. Therein lies the essence of the problem… you cannot decide for someone else what is tempting enough to put capital at risk… it;s all about ROI..vs ROE….always. Apple? Yea,, so what? Stockholders (including your 401K mutual fund) are just putting the heat on Apple to keep creating “insanely great” products so your 401K keeps increasing in value and you get dividend income. If you held Apple 20 years ago,,, bet you are a happy camper now! Yes it is relentless pressure… capitalism is that. Not only did Apple grow..it forced entire industries to get better, create new business models, spewing wealth globally… that is what stockholder pressure does. If Apple falters… stockholders put the money elsewhere where they can get the better return..and I promise you.. today, right now, companies worldwide are trying hard as hell to to attract those investors and their capital by doing better than Apple. Or you can be forcibly invested in your federal government and get GM results or Solyndra, or Fisker Motors… ya know? No pressure there to perform is there?
October 29, 2011 at 8:15 am #738350
kootchmanMemberBTY… Steve Jobs was looking out for his customers…that’s why they bought Apple products. GM made shit cars, that cost too much to make… that’s why they didn’t attract investors..except you know who. Customer focus is always the hallmark of a successful brand.
October 29, 2011 at 4:17 pm #738351
jamminjMembergovt. “no no no.. it is by definition unsustainable.”
then shut down the US military. Including the DoD and VA and it’s civilian employees, it is BY FAR our biggest government expenditure. Get rid of it, or decrease by 75% at least. You think the government is a waste, then you are ignoring it’s biggest waste.
October 29, 2011 at 7:45 pm #738352
kootchmanMemberThe government has one overriding responsibility. DoD could stand a trimming for sure. It is a core obligation and I will pay for it. Now we are at value choices, which moves the discussion forward. But I see no argument that a growing government that outpaces the the growth of the private sector is unsustainable. Want to sop up that extra, surplus, labor? National service. No federal programs, loans, loan guarantees, FHA, until your national service is rendered.. student loans forgiven for national service. watch the howl from government unions!
October 29, 2011 at 8:00 pm #738353
kootchmanMemberSpin it anyway you want. There were two necessary actors in this debacle. The first bad actor were irresponsible, risk assuming loans of questionable credit. The mortgage banking business. The second bad actor, was the consent, and encouragement of the federal regulatory agencies and monstrous political gains to hyper inflate a speculative bubble and distort the prices of homes by loose as goose s—t credit standards… like 0% down FHA standards and loan to value ratios that 25 years ago..unheard of. These things were national housing policy and we loved it. Now we pay for it. The party is over and the two hosts who gave away the car keys after the credit binge share equal blame. There were cautionary voices the whole route. Voices that were ignored for political expediency. None of this would have happened without the active participation of your federal government. You are blaming one host of the party. Too hard to believe they are as corrupt and rapacious as the banks? Your beef with “corporations” who had no participation in the scam is misplaced. I understand the pressure to get “someone else” to pay and anyone but “me” … is attractive. I suggest the first step to minimize your victim status is reassert some controls over your government…not give them more levers. I think often of the barrista who said ” I don’t pay any attention to the news”…and then is stunned at the devastation wrecked on her life.
October 30, 2011 at 6:59 am #738354
redblackParticipantsorry about the late response. been working out of town again.
smitty said,
So is this just a recent phenomenon over the last four years? Big and small business hired millions b/t 2001 and 2007. NOW they are greedy? Are you saying this will never change unless we force them to hire via regulation? How will that work? Why did they hire before?
no, they’ve always been greedy, to an extent. it’s a simple fact that paying good wages and benefits hurts the bottom line, correct? if you start a business, do you do it with the thought that you’re going into business to create jobs? i highly doubt it. you’re more likely chasing a dream, and when your business grows and you need help, you’re thinking, “damn. i need to hire someone.”
and no one’s forcing anyone to hire anyone. it’s called incentive.
why did they hire before? because demand rose in the housing bubble-driven economy.
same answer for why tax revenues rose. in a hot economy, everyone is paying taxes. but low taxes were not the reason for the hot economy.
the housing/re-fi bubble was obviously an unsustainable economic model, especially when you consider that wall street was leveraging mortgage-backed securities at 30-1.
(how to you copy and paste someone’s post like you did mine?)
it’s the blockquote tag. like this:
<block quote> [insert text here] </block quote>
[remove the spaces between block and quote, so it’s one word. obviously, if i spell the tag correctly, it will make a blockquote. :)]
WSB forums doesn’t appear to support all of them, but most of the tags listed here seem to work – like bold (strong), italic (em), and blockquote.
October 30, 2011 at 7:52 am #738355
kootchmanMemberNo Smitty, every investment has to have a return. As a “general: rule of thumb, given wages, benefits, etc… it is not worth hiring anyone unless you get a 30% “return” on that investment. That is low skilled, production, or general labor, warehousemen, etc. It’s a ball park figure. In small businesses, generally bankers and lenders will look at two things, revenue per employee and the return on that investment. It’s a fair indicator of efficient use of human capital. As a wholesale distributor as an example, I would look at numbers in that range. For a technical sales agency, I would get a better return. When those numbers don’t crunch… someone leaves to be replaced, or ya fire and increase the yield per employee. That return is after tax. net income/number of employees.
October 30, 2011 at 5:56 pm #738356
JoBParticipantjamminj…
i really do love your posts
but when you suggest tearing down government owned houses while people live on our streets…
you make this little old lady want to smack you upside the head…
October 30, 2011 at 7:47 pm #738357
JanSParticipantOctober 31, 2011 at 12:04 am #738358
kootchmanMemberThe growth of capital equipment purchasing is starting to grow.. which always precedes a turn around. Japan went through two decades of reformation when their banks went over the brink. Great Britain, about the same. Europe is as much a basket case as we, but they went with austerity and bite the bullet write downs..yet to be acted on, we will see. I noticed the debt bond yields China is going to buy are twice the return of US Treasuries. So.. we will have to increase our T bill yields to borrow from China or we have no one to lend to. Inflation anyone? Everything is pegged to T Bill rates..
October 31, 2011 at 4:46 am #738359
JoBParticipantkootch..
this is a “turn-around”?
only if you think the past “downturn” is a normal market correction.
November 1, 2011 at 10:02 am #738360
kootchmanMemberFunny thing… Perusing east coast colleges for our trip back east to tour campuses…. this interesting
article : YOU DECIDE: Why has economic inequality increased?
Smitty you will like this one…
“Research shows that higher income households subject to this highest rate have responded to its reduction by working and earning more.”
what we have known all along…. the greater the incentives, the greater the effort to achieve them.
And I said “starting to turn around… and capital equipment purchases always have preceded a turn around. Obama goes… the cash flows.
November 1, 2011 at 10:06 am #738361
kootchmanMemberAnd all those b.s. numbers re: the 1%
U.S. Census data show that since 1980 and after adjusting for inflation, average annual incomes of the richest 10 percent of households rose 35 percent, the average income of all households increased 11 percent, and incomes of the poorest 10 percent of households trended upward by 5 percent.
Wealth also became more concentrated, with the wealthiest 1 percent of households increasing their share of total wealth from 20 percent to 27 percent over the last 20 years.
November 1, 2011 at 1:11 pm #738362
redblackParticipant“Research shows that higher income households subject to this highest rate have responded to its reduction by working and earning more.”
you know, kootch, not all of us can – or even want to – work harder or work longer hours. in fact, most of us are being told our hours need to be cut back. especially those of us with blue collar jobs.
your quote just shows me how arrogant, privileged, and completely detached from reality the upper class is.
time to occupy broadmoor or clyde hill, methinks.
November 1, 2011 at 2:46 pm #738363
redblackParticipantand re: all those b.s. numbers:
you see how the gap is widening, though, don’t you? your own post 71 confirms it.
November 1, 2011 at 2:49 pm #738364
redblackParticipant“obama goes the cash flows.”
catchy.
capital investments are not being made because the people with the capital don’t want to pay taxes. period. they’re waiting for a republican to remove capital gains taxes and other taxes on investment.
i say we dissolve their charters if they don’t start investing and paying those taxes.
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again: i don’t give a rat’s hindquarters how many taxes you paid to china and how unfair you think it is that you pay taxes in multiple countries. you do business here, you pay taxes here.
November 1, 2011 at 5:03 pm #738365
kootchmanMemberWell SOME people DO want more income… and they create the economic scale of activity that employs you. Sure you could work more hours… start your own business. Fine that you don’t want to..that’s your choice.. but being entitled to the rewards of the people who do… no. You aren’t. They do pay taxes here. Lots of taxes. I already paid taxes once on my capital gains… when I earned it. What I do after I earn it should not be taxed. If I choose to burn it, buy a boat, … that’s my choice. Here’s the problem… the new economy workers are not underemployed..and they are the majority of the work force. Low skill blue collar labor is taking hit… no question about it. At least you are young enough to retrain and do something about it. The rest of the country is doing to government worker unions what they did to trade unions… recognizing they cost too much and are a drag on productivity. Despite the all that, they still gained… but no, surplus labor in oversupply will not keep pace. It’s a tribute to the top ten per cent that they were efficient enough to drag along the rest. Watch Europe.. they are paying dearly for their wealth confiscation schemes… Greece? Italy?… they are going to lose massive social spending programs. Why would you want to join them?
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