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October 25, 2011 at 5:18 pm #601009
DBPMemberCan the Conservatives on this site please ‘splain me something? Can you ‘splain me why rich folks aren’t creating more jobs with their money? Remember: The theory was that if the wealthy kept more of their money by not being taxed, they’d create jobs.
So where are they? Where are all the jobs the untaxed rich were supposed to create?
Smitty says (paraphrase): You can’t expect corporations to invest money in a weak economy.
Others say: You don’t just create jobs to be creating jobs. That doesn’t make sense economically. You have to produce something that consumers WANT.
OK. I’ll buy that. I’ll buy those arguments. But you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “Don’t tax us; let us keep ALL our money so we can create jobs.” — and then not follow through and create the jobs. There’s just something wrong with that equation.
Personally, I get the feeling that rich people really ARE creating jobs. Plenty of them, in fact. They’re just not creating them here. Instead, they’re creating them in places like India, China, Mexico. Places where they’ll get the biggest return on their investment. Because, like they say: That’s what makes the most sense economically.
And why not? Building factories in India is what I’d be doing too. If I were rich.
October 25, 2011 at 5:41 pm #738292
DBPMemberYou know who’s creating jobs here?
–Hammerhead, with her cleaning business.
And unlike the hoi polloi, she didn’t just promise to create jobs, she actually did create them, by hiring local people, including even a couple of folks from Nickelsville. Yay!
Where’s Hammerhead’s bailout?
In fact, Hammerhead never asked for or needed one. But I’ll tell you this . . . I’d give her a million bucks of taxpayer money before I’d give another goddam dime to some wealthy invester or fat-cat CEO. I wouldn’t even care if she took a hundred grand right off the top and went to live in Tahiti – as long as she actually created some jobs here before she left.
God knows, it’d be a helluva lot more than the fat cats ever did for us, for all their millions in bonuses and tax breaks.
**************************************************************************************
Also rockin’ the job market: Full Tilt.
October 25, 2011 at 5:41 pm #738293
365StairsParticipantLots of personal assistants…who themselves…have personal assistants…
October 25, 2011 at 7:14 pm #738294
SmittyParticipant1) They are concerned about the costs of Obamacare and increased regulation. Lots of uncertainty in both big ans small biz communities.
2) How do you know they haven’t created jobs? As Obama likes to say “saved or created”! It might have been much worse.
October 25, 2011 at 7:34 pm #738295
miwsParticipantThis Country needs more Bob Moores
The Wiki article only mentions that he sold the Company to his employees.
I remember seeing, I believe on Evening Magazine, a story about Mr. Moore’s turning the Company over to his employees.
As I recall, he was being courted by some pretty big food conglomerates. Most likely Kraft and Nabisco.
Instead, he chose to keep his Company “small”, and in selling it to the employees that had shown him the same level of loyalty to him, that he had shown them, it would likely keep a philosophy of continuing to put out quality products, instead of cutting back on quality only to save a penny or two, and for the Employees/new owners to be able to stand behind those products with pride, and not be put under the stress of working for a faceless mega-corp, that puts profits before people (both Employees and Customers).
Mike
October 25, 2011 at 7:48 pm #738296
BostonmanMemberI don’t think your question has one answer DP. Its really two parts, the first is what jobs would be lost of people were taxes more thus getting into the creation versus saved jobs arguement. The second part is at what point will people use money to create additional jobs. That is really a big variable. It depends on certainty or uncertainty of regulation, tax changes, how the individual is invested (ie risk) and if the demand if there for them to hire a new person.
Yes, I said demand. While I support lower taxes and less spending I also recognize that more money alone will not create jobs. If I made another $100k a year the most I might do is hire a housekeeper or something.
The biggest issue with raising taxes right now is that people just don’t trust government to act responsibly. They don’t trust government to manage money, there is just to much waste in the system. Why should I pay more when congressman and senators get such amazing benefits? I say they should cut those benefits so we don’t have to pay more.
I also don’t like the fact that I pay about 22% on my average tax rates after deductions and people making more than me pay a little less and people making less than me pay nothing. By default I am the one getting screwed the highest because I am middle class.
Disagree or not with my opinion I think your statement DP has truth to it. Not all conservatives believe in what you say. I just think the system needs to get fixed before you mess with tax code.
October 25, 2011 at 8:36 pm #738297
TDeParticipantHere’s the problem I see with demand. If a large percentage of people are unemployed and a larger percentage of people have had to take jobs that pay less than they used to make and even a larger percentage are paying out a whole lot more out in bills because everything costs more… how in the world will demand be created? Like Bostonman says, If I have $100K more a year I can afford to hire a housekeeper. But I have so much less than that… even less than I had last year.
If there’s no demand and the job “creators” don’t create jobs with all the money they have stashed away for a risk-free environment, then it seems the country continues to downward spiral into an economic abyss.
Please enlighten me… How do you create demand in such an era? I’m open to hearing creative thoughts.
October 25, 2011 at 8:46 pm #738298
BostonmanMemberWell TDe creating demand will be driven by what happens on not just a national level but on a global level. In fact its more globally dependent than ever before. Small companies will create a small amount of jobs but a company like Amazon or Dell won’t hire until foreign demand is needed.
Either than or someone will create a new service or product (facebook for example) and they will hire people. Perhaps alternative energy is the next big source of jobs. It won’t be manufacturing though.
October 25, 2011 at 8:50 pm #738299
JanSParticipantSmitty…that’s an excuse only. Try an explanation without inserting “Obama” and “Obamacare” into it. You sound like a repeat of what’s said on Faux News…soundbites…
October 25, 2011 at 9:49 pm #738300
oddrealityParticipantA conservative that seems to be coming around…
http://www.businessinsider.com/david-frum-paul-krugman-right-2011-10
October 25, 2011 at 10:11 pm #738301
skeeterParticipantWhile its true that many manufacturing jobs have moved overseas, the U.S. is still a manufacturing powerhouse. The U.S. manufactures more goods (as measured by dollars) than any other country in the world. China is #2 and Japan is #3. Though China will most likely surpass the U.S. in the next few years. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufacturing-countries.htm
If you think about it – it’s quite amazing. A country of 300 million people (U.S.) manufactures more than a country of over a billion people (China.) All this even though it costs more than 10 times as much to employ a person in the U.S. as it does in China.
To the extent the economy booms and more manufactured goods are produced, that means more jobs in all manufacturing companies – U.S. included.
October 25, 2011 at 10:29 pm #738302
365StairsParticipantEven if an increased demand is there…going forward…all organizations will still be very careful in hiring FT with benefits…PT will be huge wave…It will all depend on how lean or how much redundancy any size company will want to run at.
Jobs that require an immediate backup person or two to step in for sick / planned vacations means more jobs…
Small business back up is typically the owner and they forget to factor their pay a lot of the time.
I would hate it if there was a large dependence on the tech / internet business industry again…Facebook, Twitter, Google are all anomolies and their value vs. actual growth may be overstated long term. I say this even with close to a billion users and counting on FB…which will require infrasture / jobs…but where is the revenue to support this user base?
Its all about Ad $ on the internet…
I’ve said this before…gone are the traditional 15-30% net margins for sustainability…you will have to survive on 10-20% expectations and most likely less. Some products will beat this of course…but the cost of all production equipment alone will make labor factor a close consideration.
October 25, 2011 at 10:58 pm #738303
JanSParticipantOctober 26, 2011 at 12:08 am #738304
kootchmanMemberAnother Jan “ism” ask a question, get a reasoned response and then attack the message or messenger. Why ask Jan? How is taxing going to create jobs? Taxing our way to prosperity? That woud be a first. Just consider this for a moment.. is there a worse investment than our federal government? You wonder why your bandwagon is so empty? Because even the middle class has come to the realization that government pisses money away like a drunken sailor. Worse, it creates programs and instituions that never go away. They endure forever with a never ending and growing demand for more taxes. We don’t trust government. Investments today is strictly try and preserve the integrity of the accumulated capital. Yes, Obamacare IS a drag on the confidence of business. Do read the news.. the numbers were fudged, FINALLY HHS fesses up and says it is not sustainable and drops the CLASS portion of Obamacare. Slice and dice it as you wish, we were deceived intentionally. And where did this creation come from? Vote buying. CLASS would have created an entirely new class of unionized caregivers…hundreds of thousands of them. This was crafted by and for big labor. So far Obamacare has been fudged numbers, gimmick assumptions, and the more ya see the less ya like. Crafted in secret, behind closed doors…it begs mistrust and suspicion. You want businesses to create new jobs, hire, with this level of mistrust? So far the only “stimulus” has been for unionized government workers and unionized industry. There is no trust of wise, efficient, or effective use of tax resources. Business is going to hold it until it can invest it with some risk and some upside. I’d rather give a crackhead $100 to hold for me then $100 to the government, who will use it to create programs that will cost me $100 over and over again in perpetual cycles… and over 1/3 of that will be to pay off the debt for the overextended deficits incurred. Nope… just keep it where it is..safe from confiscation and value degradation. It’s a trust thing.
October 26, 2011 at 12:20 am #738305
SmittyParticipantRegardless of what you call it (I watch MSNBC believe it or not) healthcare reform is what is keeping big and small businesses from hiring. Lots of uncertainty and fear of sky-rocketing costs. Mark my words, if it becomes evident that Romney will win (by say October) you will see a drastic shift in hiring. It’s very much like when it became clear that Obama was going to beat McCain (in October) that the massive layoffs began.
October 26, 2011 at 1:13 am #738306
TDeParticipantI run a small business. I’ve hired 3 new people this last year. The only reason I’m not hiring more is economics… not Health Care. When the business grows enough to support another worker, I’ll hire them.
October 26, 2011 at 1:14 am #738307
oddrealityParticipant99% are pissed about this too.So many things gone wrong.So many fairy tales.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/reagan-and-revenues/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto#
October 26, 2011 at 2:36 am #738308
kootchmanMemberThat maybe true TDe.. but are you strapping on 10K plus per worker? Service workers are easy to hire and easy to lay off. Generally manufacturing requires two investments. The machines and equipment, and the people to run them. While you can lay off service and knowledge workers, the capital costs of that equipment are not variable costs, they are fixed. And as you well know, firms with over 50 employees are required to pay the costs of their employees and a good portion of yours too. Your business will be subsidized by other businesses who are larger. even the smallest firms, the tax credits “disappear” after 2 years as the “exchanges” kick in and (ha ha ha) costs are lowered. So far health care costs have exceeded the most optimistic projections. To be “fully” insured under the mandate, after 2014 small businesses will have the diferences made up by others. There is no upper limit to that cost…no defined cost structures to budget.
October 26, 2011 at 3:29 am #738309
kootchmanMemberOh yea Krugman and the NY Times..with contributions from Rachal Maddow and Keith Obermann… now that is a true and unbiased data source. What exactly is “real revenue” as defined by Krugman? For now.. lower dollar values..up go prices. Food is up 15%…and gas will be around $3.50 gallon around election time with no appreciable demand bump. As Messer Obama and Geitner are about the business of trying to inject inflationary price pressures by quantitative easing a review of the effect is sobering. Inflation is his last option to raise revenue. I would prefer government cuts, and so would you.
“Since taxes are assessed on nominal incomes and tax indexing didn’t start until 1985, the sharp fall of inflation shrank the tax base and increased the tax cut’s revenue loss.” Demand and growth, both accompanied RR tax cuts. Just what we need now.
Wringing out the juice of the Jimmy Carter inflationary spiral was far more impactful than the RR tax cuts. You also neglect to add that Clinton kicked half the welfare recipients off the tax roles. That was no small measure the reason for his “almost” balanced budget”… there was no surplus either. We were still eyeballs deep in debt, we stopped digging for a two year period.
For those who oppose a flat tax or VAT
The average federal income tax rate on a median family is less than 5 percent and its marginal rate is 15 percent. Inflation is nonexistent and the federal funds rate is close to zero.
Reagan Years
“The average federal income tax rate on a four-person family with the median income had risen from 7 percent in 1965 to 11 percent in 1978, and the marginal tax rate – the tax on each additional dollar earned – rose from 17 percent to 25 percent.”
It ain’t just the rich… that are riding historically low tax rates. From 17% to 5% is a pretty hefty tax cut. It just so happens that a flat tax of 20%….and a limit of spending of 17% of GDP would bring us to a balanced budget in 10 years. Ya have to broaden the tax base. Class warfare ain’t being bought, no matter how hard The Messiah wants to sell it.
October 26, 2011 at 4:22 am #738310
redblackParticipantto smitty:
Regardless of what you call it healthcare reform is what is keeping big and small businesses from hiring.
really, now?
at 1/6 of the country’s GDP, what is an unregulated for-profit health insurance industry costing business?
to the bigger topic, no matter how you slice it, wall street and “industrial capitalists” have no frigging interest in creating jobs.
their sole purpose is to make money. period. end of argument. and hiring human beings who demand living wages and/or benefits is contrary to cost-cutting and profit-taking. as such, their money is better spent in attacking government regulations, taxation, labor laws, and collective bargaining with vast sums of money, lobbyists, lawyers, and big-media PR blitzes.
conversely, regulations and taxes are the very tools that we, the people, are trying to use to make a better society.
why don’t republicans, conservatives, “independents,” teabaggers, and libertarians ever admit this to themselves – or anyone else? are you ashamed of carrying water for people who don’t care if you live or die?
but a better question is, “why do you do it?”
October 26, 2011 at 4:30 am #738311
redblackParticipantkootch: volcker raised interest rates to quell inflation due to the cost of the war that you served in to stave off a massive meltdown in the economy.
it could have been a lot worse.
and it had nothing to do with social engineering.
and i hate to break it to you, but – when accounting for inflation – wages have flattened for us in the past 30 years while the slice of the pie for the top 2% has gotten wider and deeper. low taxes haven’t bought me a damned thing – except a broken country that doesn’t make its own tee vees and a lot of red ink.
October 26, 2011 at 6:03 am #738312
JanSParticipantoff topic a bit, but…I sit here reading Kman trashing Krugman…nay, making fun of him…and wonder, Kman…where the hell is your Nobel Prize? where the hell is your professorship at Princeton? I’m thinking that there are people who know more than you, although I’m sure you don’t think so. Yet, you’ll put a Herman Cain sticker on your car? Seriously? Oh, yeah…he ran a business…crappy pizza..catered to..the masses? Yes, that’s success of a different kind. But is he qualified to put his hand on the nuclear button at 3am? Uz.beki..beki..beki..stan? Seriously? And he says that we lack a sense of humor? There is nothing funny about the state of our economy…or the fact that he wants to run this country, yet doesn’t know the basics, and hasn’t even run for dogcatcher…
yep…cranky tonight… I’m sure you’ll have a sarcastic remark, though…give it your best shot..
October 26, 2011 at 7:03 am #738313
JoBParticipantOctober 26, 2011 at 7:22 am #738314
HMC RichParticipantKrugman supports Obama economic policies. They have not worked. Harry Reid just said the private sector was OK but the Public Job creation was horrible. (Since 2007 6.3 million private sector jobs lost compared to 392,000 Public Jobs lost). We have lost 2 Million jobs since then. Yes, more Public Union jobs lost means less money from dues feeding the money laundering of the Democratic Party. Talk about a scam. That is why Public Unions are evil. Anyway, Stimulus was supposed to create jobs, infrastructure etc. Some created (many union) but mostly ineffective. Unemployment rocketed past 8% after you know who promised it would not. Omnibus spending bill did not help economy either. EPA regulations intrusive and at one point Yellowstone National Park would have been in violation of Federal Air Standards (but the press was bad enough so Obama had them pull that away).
Government take over of businesses. Attacking the Chamber of Commerce, Backing Alternative Energy companies whose time in the market has not come. Ever hear of Solyndra? Excuse the spelling. How many millions wasted on the poster child of alternative energy? Obamacare on the horizon while private insurance companies raise health care premiums when we were promised they would go down. Giving favorable companies and Unions exemptions but going after other companies that don’t agree. Calling people who work hard Fat Cats and other names, while catering to Wall Street for donations (and not letting in the press when the wealthy are lavishly paying to meet El Presidente!) And Biden. Fact checked as a failure on the recent rape and crime allegations if we don’t pass the new jobs bill. I hope Obama stays healthy because we do not need a nut like Biden running the country.
Mr. Obama and Mr. Krugman’s arguments are baseless because the President’s policies are not driving the economic engine, but cooling it. He is the anti business, pro labor, pro crony, rookie prez who has no answers. He was not qualified to be President and it shows. He supports Occupy Wall Street but takes the fools in Wall Streets donations (behind closed doors). Mr. Community Organizer is a narcissist and a socialist. That is why business is not hiring. Why should they?
No, businesses are hiring in spite of the President.
October 26, 2011 at 7:26 am #738315
HMC RichParticipantJanS, although we disagree in many areas I do hope to see you on the 6th. I am the Fat Cat smoking a cigar. Not really. White hair, glasses. Northern European looks and too many pizzas over the years. Thanks for your contributions.
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