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October 7, 2011 at 11:04 pm #736428
kootchmanMemberNot in my profession. However, you WILL do a lot of things MY way until I have some confidence in your autonomy. Seems to me that is the way most people I know started. Now JoB … funny thing, with all those skill sets, there is also a start your own company option…which an amazing number of people do. Just to reflect a bit though…it was a heck of a lot easier to do 30 years ago. Imagine having to report a cash deposit to the federal government of over$10,000? Or file as a sole prop with a gross income over 80K every quarter to the state,.. “stuff” that makes it hard to focus on getting a business up and running. Diversions.
October 7, 2011 at 11:21 pm #736429
redblackParticipantvelo-nut, kootch, singularname, et al:
civil servants have a saying. i think it came from the military. in any case, it’s a profound bit of wisdom:
80% of the people do 20% of the work, and vice versa. it’s known as the 80/20 rule.
the trick is figuring out how much you have to do and how much you’re able to delegate.
no, it isn’t fair. but i defy any of you to change that algorithm.
and, yeah. i completely understand ineptitude in the workplace. but they’re not robots, for crying out loud. don’t forget that you were a FNG once, too, and i’ll go out on a limb and assert that not one of you came out of the box with skills, work ethic, and wisdom that matched the old timers’ before you.
i know i didn’t, and i was humiliated a couple of times. but that experience gave me a better work ethic.
October 8, 2011 at 12:43 am #736430
velo_nutParticipantI’d say that 80/20 rule is spot on (unless you spent your 4 years on a sub…)
Failure polished my work ethic. Fall on my face, find out why, correct it and start again until succeeding.
Too many people stop after falling on their face part. Then they blame some corporation for being corporationy and then go pitch a tent in the town square.
October 8, 2011 at 1:29 am #736431
DBPMemberOctober 8, 2011 at 2:38 am #736432
singularnameParticipantJoB … Had I known you had a crew of relations transforming backyard riots into pleasant spaces, I woulda hit on you for some assistance; however, I just made a deal with a construction pal of mine to bless my space with his quirky touch. And I’m sure these kids/young adults want to get on with their careers and lives. If they continue to run into obstacles of economy and all that is broken in our country, my hope would be for one or more of them to have an epiphanal moment when they can in fact find a more powerful calling. There are a gazillion bad hiring managers out there–and based on the experience I laid out above, I’m obviously one of them. Let’s hope I’ve learned some things and, for the sake of your family, others have, too.
DP … That’s the perfect job for the folks terminated. If per chance you’re honing in my comment about “if you do not do a, b, c,” you’ve misinterpreted–that was the message given after four months of cryptic and almost-complete inactivity, agreed to immediately by the person when I discovered this fact. The key “to-do’s,” or “do exactly as I say’s,” were “do not lie to me by saying you have finished something when you in fact have not,” “answer your emails when they are addressed to you and have a question mark at the end of a sentence,” etc. Does that really sound unreasonable of me? Regarding risk, my team *is* the risk-taking team. I take them on a weekly basis, and believe me my a$$ has been in a sling many times because of it. And I promote the jobs this way–as you can imagine, people are chomping at the bit when they hear this. Problem is: Everyone (i.e., everyone in my business) fancies themselves a genius, *but* only about one in fifty actually have the “work ethic” and the “smarts” to carry it out beyond the tips of their tongues. I’m the very first to admit that doing it in a business environment is freakin’ *hard*, but that’s why they get paid what they do.
dbsea … Outsourcing … absolutely. Fortunately, I’ve managed to stave that off in my group, but I’m not sure how much longer I’ll be able to do that. A painfully hysterical thing came up in a management class I took about 5 years ago. The last chunk was everyone had to get up and present a management issue they were having. So this guy starts his spiel and I’m waiting for it to get actually interesting and, who knew!–it really did get interesting. His dilemma was he had a team in India but was being forced to create a team in China to replace the one in India and “oh, my, sheesh, how am I gonna break this horrible horrible news to the Indian team.” I about lost my dang lunch. *lmao* Seriously, I busted out laughing in the class about how stupid this entire scenario was. I piped in first with, “Well, just tell ’em the same thing you told the U.S. team when their jobs went to India.” Saddest part? Not one person expressed they had a clue what I was talking about.
redblack … Totally agree with the 80/20. And you are very correct to point out that you can’t treat folks like robots; I never have. I do, however, abstain from most chitchat, personal antecdotes, and the like (e.g., I just really don’t give a robin’s egg about someone’s really really really adorable new kitty)–I like to get in and get out. If someone’s sick or dealing with a family issue, I’m all over giving him or her full and sincere reign to blow off work and work through what’s really important, but if I want have sushi and bowl, I wanna come home to West Seattle and do it with my kid. Something I should work on a bit.
DP … I’m gonna go ahead and hit Send, but give me a nip if I’ve hijacked this post to your disliking. Not intentional, but in the end I think that’s where I wound up. My apologies.
October 8, 2011 at 3:10 am #736433
kootchmanMemberredblack… I dunno where it came from, but it is spot on. Now the ‘trick” is..to carry over from our other shared forums.. is to reward the 20%, one, for being in the 20%, two, hopefully as an example for anyone in the 80% to make the transition to the 20%. That would be my instinct.. to compensate the 20% more for their efforts.
October 8, 2011 at 5:48 pm #736434
redblackParticipanti see it a little differently. the trick is to lead the 80% by example. in my experience, threats and yelling are the worst way to get someone to learn and the quickest way to douse morale. you have to get in there next to them and start throwing elbows, so to speak. make them keep up with you. that sort of thing. work yourself into a sweat – and sing while you’re doing it, even if you’re doing most of the work. you’ll either shame them into working harder or make them quit when they see what the job takes.
i get a little extra on top of union scale because i have that skill. i think it’s a fair system.
but i need the 80%, and so do we all. no man is an island. i don’t mean to be arrogant, but they are a resource.
but you have to remember that they’re also people, no matter how much their pecadillos annoy you.
October 8, 2011 at 7:28 pm #736435
YardvarkMemberLove seeing all these folks actually speaking up for their future. (Also love the dimissive comments of those who can’t make sense of it and likely never will.) Excellent on both counts! This is just the beginning. It’s gonna get weird!
October 8, 2011 at 8:56 pm #736436
JanSParticipanta quote from a commenter on another site…
“Yes, sometimes our democracy is inconvenient. Thank goodness for that, sometimes we need to be inconvenienced in order to move forward in a positive manner”
October 9, 2011 at 1:02 am #736437
elikapekaParticipantAnother wrinkle in the work situation is that there are currently big differences in the personal and business styles of different generations. Google something like “generational differences in the workplace” and you’ll find some interesting reading.
I don’t really deal with it too much, because I work with people online and we simply exchange work – no one cares how it gets done as long as it gets done correctly and on time. But depending on the generation of your workers, you may get better results by changing how you deal with them.
October 9, 2011 at 2:00 am #736438
kootchmanMemberI agree to a point. The successful biz will attract the 20%…and KEEEP them. Jack Welch has an interesting take on it. He charged his business management units to asess the state of their salaried oversights, Other than malfeasance, theft, etc.. the lowest performing 10% were called in and given one year to find another job. Which most did. The notion being, every “freshman” class had a potential 20 per center in it. It raised the game of the 80%…For the lower 10% .. GE just wasn’t a good fit. GE can be faulted for many things. But it is a feared powerhouse across the globe as a competitor. Now being a bit north of the “young gun” executive.. getting in a slinging #80 lb. bags is not going to happen… and I don’t expect the same drive, risk assumption, of the 80% … but they know the standards. I did learn one thing, in the USMC… if they don’t buy the “whole” program… they don’t fit.
October 9, 2011 at 2:17 am #736439
JoBParticipantkootch..
funny you should mention that..
my brother is thinking of becoming their very own venture capital source..
of course.. that is his retirement he is investing:(
October 10, 2011 at 1:00 am #736440
kootchmanMemberOhhhh… well I opened 6 businesses… 3 failed, two sorta limped along for years.. til I sold em to smarter people and one “made it”.. I also took out so many second mortgages… I stopped counting. Couldn’t do it today… smarter, savvier, craftier though I think I am… I couldn’t put in the hours. Sad realization cause there is still opportunity out there.
October 10, 2011 at 4:56 am #736441
JoBParticipantkootch…
i am pretty sure my brother would be smart to invest his retirement in his kids…
what i am not so sure is that this is the economy in which starting any business is a smart investment:(
October 10, 2011 at 8:55 am #736442
kootchmanMemberWell, KKR ripped apart my first “post college” Fortune 50 company in the wondrous of economies.. Jimmy Carter. I started up my first business three months after RR was inaugurated. The PC and software industry kicked in…and there was tons of venture capital ..As in all recession, when they recede, and they all do at some point, demand accelerates. Those trillions will come off the sidelines and go on the grand craps table. Providing, it stays on the sidelines and isn’t confiscated until then, or goes overseas in search of better returns. I dunno, he may have a compelling business model..that defies the trend. I don’t think I would have made the same decisions though..if I had kids at that point. I was risking my own status. Kids make for more caution.
October 10, 2011 at 4:20 pm #736443
365StairsParticipant“365: Were you never young? Did you never offer to sacrifice yourself for a higher ideal? And weren’t there others who thought you foolish for doing so?”
DP – Yes on all accounts…I was young… thought my ideal world would be much better by stealing a whole box of M&M’s from the grocery store (what is now Endolyn Joes). Many thought this was foolish even despite that I offered to share my stolen property after the fact…
Too Young or wrong ideal? Not quite what you were looking for…but rest assured…I remain passionate the entire world would be better if we all had our daily share of M&M’s…(with the dark chocolate).
Of course I was young and foolish and didn’t know what I wanted to do in life…I could run fast and shoot really well…so I joined the Marines.
I’m last of 8 kids so protesting for anything was out of the question and became not my nature. Some of us don’t have to lead or demonstrate to get our points across…some of us “just do” because in our eyes…involving others in our mission is not necessary…we are not carpets mind you…oh no…I’m no carpet…when things really matter…and I can control the situation…you will hear from me…trust that.
I suppose by default of my life…I judge these public protestors harshly because, although I live in the “same circumstances” as those out there…my course of action would not be to sit in the streets shouting and challenging authority to the point I got hauled off to jail…Nobody will take you seriously after that.
Personally…if I had a real strong message as this…I would find a good writing / speaking coach, a good tailor, and a Hoovers contact list of all my local CEO’s complete with #’s. Then, after studying up on said CEO’s…and practicing really hard on my message (facts and figures – reeling in emotion), and being prepared for any counter message or questions, I would get all dressed up in a really nice suit, schedule a professional appointment, and take my message on that scheduled appointment to a specific list of the top CEO’s of the banks and corporations I could have access to. If they don’t want to meet and I’ve exhausted my list, I would draft my public editorial for all the local news (print and video) on what I attempted to communicate professionally and raise the bar that way. Not wanting to waste the message in a one time shot…I would also ensure the national publications knew what I tried to do…and notify them with regular follow up…
The streets are not where decisions are made…period.
Sometimes…while it may seem like a “pride sucking siege”, you have to play the game their way and help them see things could be different and guide the decisions from their level. It works…sometimes.
October 10, 2011 at 4:28 pm #736444
JiggersMemberDBP..Photoshop is wonderful isn’t it?
October 10, 2011 at 6:19 pm #736445
DPMember365: I like your sense of humor. How refreshing!
I also like your approach to problems; it’s definitely one way to get things done. (Any time you need editorial assistance with a letter or speech, look me up.) However, I don’t agree that acting alone is the ONLY way to get things done or even necessarily the best.
Remember your esprit de corps? It brings out the best in a Marine, doesn’t it? Well, that same spirit is what it takes for some people to shine in the civilian world as well. These folks have to feel like they’re part of something bigger than themselves, and they can’t feel that way until they’re acting as part of a group. These people are not rugged individualists like you; they’re essentially followers. But they can still believe in a good cause and can be very brave and honorable in battle.
I’ll be the first to agree with you — and kootchman and singularname and Bostonman and velo_nut, et al. — that SOME of the people at Westlake are loafers and malcontents. Any movement of this size is bound to attract some. However, I don’t think it’s fair to say that they’re all bad apples or people who wouldn’t be worthy of your trust as an employer.
In any event, if you ever want to head down to Westlake and chat with some of them to see for yourself what they’re about, I’ll be happy to go with you.
For protection.
October 10, 2011 at 7:34 pm #736446
365StairsParticipantDP…I enjoy your commonsense and rational thought processes!
You really have a knack for understanding both sides of the story before rendering comments….
I lack this tact at times…
Thanks for keeping it real here!
IF this lasts passed Halloween, I will go down there with you…deal!
October 10, 2011 at 7:42 pm #736447
DPMemberDeal.
October 12, 2011 at 10:06 am #736448
kootchmanMemberMeanwhile… back in ND… 100K to drive water trucks to drill sites. Takes about two weeks to get a license. Who knows, there might be a Studs Terkel type novel in there somewhere. If you are young… now is your time to take chances. Westlake probably does not have the answers. First “black” American Express card I ever saw… my waitress at the Capt. Cook in Anchorage. they weren’t black but they had a “b” code which meant as I understand it.. (she owned rentals and property…and a rental car franchise)…100K unsecured line..Started delivering parts in a PU on the Aleyska..ended up working lifing pipe sections as a heavy crane operator. Might have to get used to Folgers.
October 12, 2011 at 6:05 pm #736449
WorldCitizenParticipantOctober 12, 2011 at 7:38 pm #736450
kootchmanMemberIt was a toss up… Jimmy Carter or Barak Obama.. but yea, I would give BHO the edge. Jimmy at least gave the appearance of being uncomfortable as a charlatan. BHO basks in it.
October 12, 2011 at 9:10 pm #736451
DBPMemberFirst “black” American Express card I ever saw… my waitress at the Capt. Cook in Anchorage. they weren’t black but they had a “b” code which meant as I understand it.. (she owned rentals and property…and a rental car franchise)…100K unsecured line..Started delivering parts in a PU on the Aleyska..ended up working lifing pipe sections as a heavy crane operator. Might have to get used to Folgers.
[shaking head rapidly back and forth and making ‘yabbidy-yabba-yabba’ noise]
Dude, what the ffffooooookkk ?!
Black WHAT ?! Folgers WHO ?!
Are you using some kind of random-word generator to write your posts? Or are you just . . . like, the Art Bell of the Blogosphere?
October 12, 2011 at 10:56 pm #736452
WorldCitizenParticipantHey Kootch, check this out…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
Now, go ahead and tear this up. Damn liberal media…oh wait, they address that “problem”.
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