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June 22, 2012 at 1:23 am #760858
kootchmanMemberJoB you are required to educate all students by washington State Constitution.. nothing says how… you aren’t being held “hostage”…you are confronting economic reality. No funds for vouchers,… no funds for levies. Not as a gesture of ill will… as a reaction to economic necessity. Cause here is the truth… mine first.. then I worry about yours. Any parent that says otherwise is FOS
June 22, 2012 at 2:04 am #760859
oddrealityParticipantI believe in public schools. We need to put more money and resources into them to make them better. We need better teachers, we need less learning for testing and more learning to learn.If people can afford and have chosen ~ even if they need to work extra hard to do it ~ to send their kids to private schools then they do not need my tax money to help them do it.I positively do not want tax dollars going to religious schools.Or corporate schools.
Public schools definitely need improving but taking money away from them and giving it to people that are already able to send their kids to private schools is not the way to do it.
June 22, 2012 at 5:59 am #760860
JanSParticipantsay, Kootch..where are all these private schools, that hold maybe a few hundred kids, gonna put the influx of thousands upon thousands of voucher kids?
June 22, 2012 at 2:04 pm #760861
JoBParticipantkootch..
I find this “i get mine first” mentality difficult to understand.
the fact that you did get your public education is what helped you to become a success. Yet you would deny that to others.
i haven’t had kids in school now for well over 40 years… and i still have voted for education every place i have lived.
“you are required to educate all students by washington State Constitution.. nothing says how”
when you take funds from the public school system to apply them to the private school system it becomes more difficult to fund education for all students.
that’s simple math kootch…
i am certain your public education covered that one adequately.
even if your fuzzy math in creating a 50% failure rate fails miserably
June 23, 2012 at 12:52 am #760862
kootchmanMemberJan..shutting down the poor schools as Cleveland has done… and turning those buildings over to private or charter schools.. some even lease them to private schools .. as Seattle has done. The public school you and I went to Ms. JoB was considered by our parents to be a privilege. But,, to the heart of the argument… no one has faith in the public school model to deliver the goods. They have had over forty years of highly unionized, tightly controlled the apparatus.. and they go backwards. Ads much as I appreciate what they did for me… they don’t do the same for the kids today. My math isn’t fuzzy… that math from a public school? My job is mine first… my kids are not up for sacrifice to prove a political point.
OK then don’t call them vouchers… open the schools up for competitive bidding!!!! Write the performance specification, what it is that you want the school to accomplish at a minimum. We do it every day in this state… we build roads, tunnels, water treatment plants, sidewalks, all manner of things… instead of vouchers we will call then “public works projects” …. I am all in on that one!
June 23, 2012 at 1:08 am #760863
miwsParticipantJune 23, 2012 at 1:19 am #760864
kootchmanMemberand oddreality…. given the record of public schools, we don’t want any more of our tax dollars wasted there. There is the argument. They have miles to go before their “brand” is credible.
Dr. Steve Perry… Capital Preparatory Magnet School.
98% minority enrollment (85% black and Hispanic)
100% graduates accepted at four year colleges (some of the very best in the nation)
Located in one of the poorest school districts in the country,
Hartford PS System
In a reversal … white parents are actually suing to get their kids enrolled.
Dr. Perry has a new book… and lots of U Tube videos. The book is ‘Push Has Come To Shove”
Show me this in public schools….. I’ll vote for more damn taxes than I could stand. Not money first anymore… i DARE a liberal to watch this…
Better… meet the class of 2011… the best performing HS in the country. A public school. Show me anything near this in our SPS! The Class of 2011
meet the school…….
http://www.capitalprep.org/admissions/welcome-from-dr-perry
Ya think the teachers love working there? Ya think they are fighting for 6 hour 5 minute work days? Oh.. they have school On saturday and pretty much year round. See miws these are “pros”… they get the job done… obstacles require ingenuity.
June 23, 2012 at 1:23 am #760865
kootchmanMemberSure miws…. liberals now call themselves progressives… it’s all in the wording… if the language makes you intransigent, we will change the words. whatever it takes to seal the deal.
June 23, 2012 at 5:11 pm #760866
JoBParticipantkootch..
woudl the schools you advocate charters for meet this challenge?
“OK then don’t call them vouchers… open the schools up for competitive bidding!!!! Write the performance specification, what it is that you want the school to accomplish at a minimum.”
the mandate is to educate all children
not just those who you think have the best chance of utilizing their education.
“The public school you and I went to Ms. JoB was considered by our parents to be a privilege. But,, to the heart of the argument… no one has faith in the public school model to deliver the goods.”
i agree that our public schools are in trouble.
but i don’t agree that parents no longer think that public education is a privilege…
at least, not the parents of the kids who depend on public education to give their children the opportunities they never had.
taxes are paid for the public good kootch… not for private enrichment.. though you would never know that by the way some people speak today.
what is failing today is the notion of the importance of public benefit
we are what my grandmother would call penny wise and pound foolish and it has caught up with us.
June 23, 2012 at 9:59 pm #760867
kootchmanMemberwould you feel “privileged” having your kid attend Roosevelt? You would feel trapped and discriminated against. And, you would be right. Public benefit is exactly what we are NOT getting. Unless you consider sub standard teachers, over bloated administration, and tenured, horrid teachers with any eye on the clock and the summer vacation calendar the metrics of how to measure school performance,
See Capital Prep… every pathology that leads to non=performance is there… and yet.. 100% graduate.. and 100% attend four year schools. They were not hand picked national merit scholars… they came from the worst slice of the socio-economic pie… even those years behind in reading comprehension are brought up to international standards. That’s what charter schools can do. Sadly, charter schools take time to organize, staff, etc.. so the urgency of the problem is years away in the resolution. If ever… those teacher unions are going to fight it tooth and nail. Vouchers would help divert some from the moribund to the successful… at no additional cost to the taxpayer. Or don’t do it… and the achievement gap will grow ever wider.
You can’t educate kids that are asleep with boredom, lead by uninspired tenure drones. The very point of the outrage is they are not delivering on the creating opportunity scale. It can be done… but it requires change, we know that government only changes when loss of funds or program cuts are on the table. Only then do the search madly for relevance.
June 23, 2012 at 10:07 pm #760868
miwsParticipantUnless you consider sub standard teachers…[snip]….tenured, horrid teachers with any eye on the clock….
Please provide documented proof.
Mike
June 23, 2012 at 10:17 pm #760869
kootchmanMemberSAT scores? Graduation rates? Number of students considered “proficient” bu ISL standards in math science? Number of SPS students who spend months in remedial classes after college enrollment just to get up to speed? Take yer pick. If the wheels fall off your new car… that’s documented proof someone isn’t putting em together right. Pros mike.. given general guidelines, a minimum acceptable outcome, who then take the initiative to get the job down… “how” is a professional decision…the creative part of an educated professional. Didja possibly watch the video miws on Capital Prep? Those are professionals.
June 24, 2012 at 2:13 am #760870
JoBParticipantkootch..
it appears to me that the parents who think education is a right are those who want to take public money to pay for private education
if those same parents invested half the time in the public school system that they are required to spend in private school systems.. the public school system wouldn’t be struggling now.
instead.. they think that their neighbors should help pay to give their children only the very best…
any private school system that can’t dance circles around the graduation stats and SAT scores of those for public schools isn’t worth the nickels you are putting into them…
after all.
they get to cherry pick the kids they admit…
June 24, 2012 at 3:18 am #760871
kootchmanMemberYou need to ask why they aren’t spending their time in the public school system. Pontificating about what they should and shouldn’t do is useless. It took forty years to drive us from the public schools.. but we left with our feet. You don’t cast pearls before swine. Now they want us back… uh huh… like that will happen. If PS spend half their time in the class, innovating, making it a challenge, adding exccitment ..and raising test scores. maybe they would return. You are required by state law to educate every child. Rich, poor, middle class, … since they can’t and haven’t … certainly not to our acceptable standards, we just want our share of the apportionment. No? Fine… we vote too.
See how many of those kids at Capital Prep were cherry picked… right out of public housing, the poorest zip code in the state, the highest violent crime statistics…. hell of a cherry pick. How do you think the West Seattle schools that are private pick? From a random selection of parish members.. ya think we give out aptitude tests to pre-K kids.. ha ha ha.. good one. Public schools teach a culture of mediocrity and entitlement. That won’t cut it.
They are “struggling” not because of the public, They bought this down upon themselves. Cherry pick? You didn’t watch the video I see. That was a charter school.. right from the heart of the worst and poorest district in the state.
Remember … it’s not public money until they collect it. That is getting harder and harder to do isn’t it? Watch this election.. charter schools is on the ballot again. IF SPS was smart.. they would run to endorse it. Just think Wisconsin. Those vouchers by the way also go the the very poorest to escape public schools.
If the very best and brightest want to leave the SPS and the only thing holding them back from achieving their aspirations is mobility.. why would you deny them?
If the public school parents spent their time in their schools.. there might be parity. why aren’t they? Because they are as isolated as the parents that can and did escape. We lift our end of the wagon…the graduates speak loudly for the choices we made.
June 24, 2012 at 2:15 pm #760872
JoBParticipantkootch..
this is about the largest piece of drivel i have ever seen..
“It took forty years to drive us from the public schools”
you weren’t driven from public schools, you chose to bail from public schools.
did your children benefit as a result? It’s likely they did.
You purchased an enhanced product kootch..
you purchased a more controlled learning environment for your children
you should get enhanced results.
but that doesn’t mean that public dollars should pay for your upgrade.
The truth is that if you believed that all children deserved the opportunity you were able to purchase for your children, you would advocate investing in the public school system.
you don’t believe all children should be given that opportunity.. only those who can afford to foot the bill.
that’s your take on health care too.
no surprises there.
June 24, 2012 at 6:32 pm #760873
waynsterParticipantheres a good intresting look on charter schools and public schools and do we want to really want charter schools…
.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-nelson/education-is-not-a-consum_b_872632.html?flv=1
June 25, 2012 at 12:00 am #760874
kootchmanMemberSpeken like an apologist. Our kids get fed political pap all the time. See the schools districts bus in their students to the isconsin protests. Adults using grade school kids for forward apolitical agenda. You can count on a society raised on choices and best value for the dollar tradtion to expand. PS are like Detroit of the 70’s…. morph, change, or die. Pay not for the upgrade, just pay the share we are entitled to.. that portion that would have gone to support the SPS system. We will handle the rest. For those that can or want to be save form SPS… don’t let poverty hold them hostage. Maybe, when the public schools can rise again to the top 5 countries and the outcomes reflect the expenditures… the issue can be revisited. It can happen. why pay world class taxes for third world outcomes? Just because they are Democrats? Tell ya what.. then just reduce my taxes, by 13K… and I will take care of mine, Did you ever consider that the controlled enviornment works better? Let’s come back in 10 years…. let’s compare the outcome of Seattle Prep grads to Roosevelt HS grads, or WSH grads, or Sealth… then tell the Roosevelt parents…. some of yours could have gone to Prep… but we choose to fund medicrity at best, as our world standard education contribution.
Public schools were designed to create a labor shortage. It was less expensive and more proftiable for industries to use power looms and mechanical aids to sew shirts. All that spare child labor went into warehouses to sop up excess child labor and raise salaries of adult workers. That’s the idealogical foundation of public schools. warehouse spare labor.
June 25, 2012 at 2:08 am #760875
JoBParticipantkootch..
another pile of .. well… you know what
but you keep on shoveling it
but don’t’ try to leave the house any time soon ;->
June 25, 2012 at 2:27 am #760876
kootchmanMemberHere’s the comforting thought… it won’t get better until you get the ones who made the difference back in the system Now we have to make the choice, good education for out kids, or a poor one with everyone else’s… it’s not a difficult choice. You hang on dog bone tight to the status quo… see how that works. Tough time to be leftie and watch all those institutions getting dismantled.
June 25, 2012 at 12:49 pm #760877
redblackParticipantthis is going to be funny. i can’t wait to see the education system crash once profit is factored into a voucher or other privately-run system. you think kids are narcissistic now?
what do i care? i’m not going to have kids.
however, if public education does go down – at over 90% enrollment, it isn’t likely – and the unions are busted and the schools are handed over to teaching corporations, i demand that the public recoup all of the money they have invested in the public school infrastructure – at full market value.
furthermore, if you want “fairness,” please exempt me from paying taxes into your crazy private-school-on-a-public-scale scheme. educate your own children at your own cost and leave me out of it.
and please give back the federal child tax credits.
thank you.
June 25, 2012 at 1:22 pm #760878
JoBParticipantkootch..
the public school system can work just fine..
it does where they follow some good old fashioned ideas about education.. starting with letting the kids know that attendance matters
the public school system will do just fine without those parents who didn’t want to invest in it…
but it won’t do just fine with those same parents siphoning off public school system money to offset the cost of the private education they prefer for their children.
i think it’s great that you chose private education for your children. I considered doing the same for mine.
What i don’t think is fine is expecting the public to pay for your choice.
btw.. i am glad to see you have now begun stating the real agenda here.. dismantling public services.
June 25, 2012 at 3:32 pm #760879
miwsParticipantMaybe the folks pushing for these taxpayer funded, private schools, should have planned better; put off having kids for awhile, so that they could save up some more money. Maybe only had one kid instead of two, or two instead of three.
I mean, it’s the sage advice; “personal responsibility” constantly being promoted by hooper….and let’s see… whom else….
Mike
June 26, 2012 at 3:34 am #760880
kootchmanMemberI do indeed want to see every institution that wastes taxes and who can’t meet the mandate set out for them when they were authorized… dismantled. whatever gave you the notion I was trying to hide it? We are planning Mike, we are cutting our overhead, public funding, so we can afford the private schools. we are fully aware of the sacrifices needed to get our kids the best educational outcomes we can. I can live with that redblack… that’s my money the government took.. it’s not yours to get back. The chlld tax credit? It’s a pittance compared to the actual costs of raising one. It’s the high point of the year for some families. Get that constitutional requirement out of the state constitution to educate all the kids… and no school taxes? In exchange for no child tax credit. Deal.
June 26, 2012 at 12:52 pm #760881
redblackParticipanti’m just making a point and being as bombastic and ridiculous about it as you are.
i’ll pay for union wages before profits any day of the week. (the former is cheaper to education consumers and benefits the people who do all the hard work for almost none of the credit.) and that is what your advocating, right? for-profit education, with schools competing against each other? communities competing against each other? more class warfare?
but leave it to a conservative to tear down the notion of universal education. i guess when the only tool you have is a hammer…
June 26, 2012 at 1:38 pm #760882
miwsParticipantWell put, redblack.
I’ve all but given up trying to post thoughtful, what I feel to be intelligent comments and opinions.
Anything we opine is wrongwrongwrong!!!!1111, and JoB and “JaN” especially, regularly get condescending and/or insulting replies; (“haughty”, “princess”, [paraphrasing] “almost a twit”….)
So, yeah, I’ve resorted (reverted?) ;-) to posting useless comments, in many instances.
Mike
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