Hot for Hillary

[JoB]

Walfredo..

i did watch the Jon Stewart clip…

i have also watched most of the video clips those were taken out of…

and they were all edited out of context…

Jon Stewart strung them together to make a point..

he made the point.

that’s doesn’t make his point suddenly THE TRUTH…

it just makes it a point.

and it still doesn’t seem to be enough for you… you have to make more of it than it was.

if those register as insults to you.. you have a very thin skin…

I was going to sit down and refute each of your points by educating you about the context each of those clips was taken out of.. but there really isn’t any point.

if you think anything which questions the viability of your candidate is an insult to someone.. then there is no chance for anything even resembling conversation…

your entire premise is that either you and yours are being insulted… or you and yours are being provoked to insult…

i thought we had enough of that particular kind of righteousness with George… the younger.

Apparently all that taught you was how well that tactic works.

it’s too bad you didn’t learn something more useful from his example…

my problem… my expectations were too high.

your remarks about the Edwards should have let us all know it’s all about winning to you.. no matter what that takes…

this campaign really is just about the campaign to you…

now that’s sad.

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[beachdrivegirl]

You are forgetting one thing. Hillary said these things and they were direct quotes. Those quotes were wrong and more people should be saying Shame on You, Shame on you Hillary Clinton.

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[beachdrivegirl]

This is the second time you have tried to say Hillary quotes were taken out of context when they obviously were not maybe you should concentrate a little bit more on what is being said directly by the canidates and a little bit less about the canidates possible “associations”

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[LBG]

Some bad news for Hillary…

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/25/946650.aspx

No opinion either way, just thought I would post for informational purposes.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

I didn’t say she was misquoted… i said the remarks were all taken out of context…

remarks are taken out of context when they are part of a larger interview or talk that had information preceding or following the remark that would have altered your understanding of the meaning of that remark…

sort of like Obama’s remarks about rural people in Pennsylvania taken out of the middle of a closed door speech in San Francisco.

he was not misquoted… however, I assume those remarks were taken out of context. He could not have meant those words the way they were portrayed in the press.

I assume that… because i don’t believe your candidate is that stupid… and because he said they were taken out of context.

in that particular case, i would have liked to have read his entire talk.. but since it was a closed reception.. that doesn’t appear to be one of our options…

so.. i am choosing to take his word for it.

You.. on the other hand.. could actually access every speech that Hillary made and find out for yourself whether those statements which got plenty of press were taken out of context…

that is… had you heard them as part of her talk.. would they have made more sense to you?

I can guarantee that even though you don’t like her… had you heard those remarks as part of the rest of what she was saying on the subject, you would not have found them so objectionable…

and… she has also said publicly that those sound bites don’t accurately reflect what she was saying.

but, I won’t be so silly as to ask you to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt…

I have given up on the hope that examples of press bias against Obama would make you more likely to see similar bias against Hillary.

this video that you are taking so seriously … as the truth and nothing but the truth… is comedy made out of biased press editing…

he was making a point through satire…

It was well done. It was funny.

But it wasn’t the whole story…

it wasn’t meant to be.

However… This particular video and your response to it does illustrate what is so dangerous about taking all of these quotes at face value… and assuming they tell the whole story.

all you get are sensationalized sound bites that make great television and create news on a slow day.. but may have nothing to do with reality.

i have not gone looking for the kinds of campaign and media spin about Senator Obama that you post here about Senator Clinton… but rest assured they exist…

and not the by hand of the Hillary campaign or her supporters as you believe…

some republicans have already done that work..

and i think we will be seeing more of it soon since Senator Obama has decided to forget about Hillary and the primary and campaign directly against John McCain..

As Jon Stewart put it on the latest daily show… if you can’t beat her, just pretend she isn’t in the race any more…

This is not Senator Obama’s smartest campaign strategy.. for several reasons..

but the biggest is that it is likely to bring out the republican dogs early…

not because republicans support Hillary as the spin machine would have you believe..

but because Senator Obama is now calling out John McCain…

and that’s not ok with the press.. who love him..

or with the republican political machine who now believe that the democratic party is divided enough that they can win this election…

I think you are about to learn a lot about the differences between misquoting and taking remarks out of context…

and i suspect you won’t like the lesson much.

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[charlabob]

Actually a tape of the complete speech and a transcript are available online; links have been posted here. Ignorance makes expression of opinions much easier, doesn’t it.

Why isn’t Clinton calling out McCain? Because it might alienate her right-wing fan base? I notice there was no response to this:

I’m sure you’ve all seen the latest effort of the Limbaugh “Chaos” project to “encourage” riots in Denver at the convention; oddly(?) NOT! it features Limbaugh singing “I’m dreaming of a white christmas.” Can you say, “Let’s stir up the white vote?” Can you say, “Limbaugh is bragging about the effectiveness of Project Chaos in Pennsylvania.? Can you say, “Guilt by association?” When is Clinton going to denounce the efforts of the extreme right on her behalf? NEVER–she’s too busy appearing on their shows.

Time Magazine has noticed that the press has “turned on” Obama. How long will it take for the Clinton Whine Machine to notice and update their whine?

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[beachdrivegirl]

Thank you Charlabob!!

I am going to try to refrain of even mentioning Clintons name from this point forward. She is a MOOT point considering she has already LOST the delegate count!! It is really time that we start concentrating on the REAL race between McSame and Obama because it is a waste of energy for us all to just give others the time of day and reference such an selfish women…

It was nice to see that Obama has done the same by starting his national voter registration campaign for the general election! :) Boy will it bad sad to see the Clintons go.

Obama ’08

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[walfredo]

Job- You were going to make a point of pointing out where all the quotes were wrong…. Then you noticed that they were quotes…

Please include context. Deeply confused…

I’m not insulted for Obama- I’m insulted for America that a candidate like Hillary gets oxygen. I don’t think that makes me, or the democratic nominee thinned skin.

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[beachdrivegirl]

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/candidates/1724/index.html

May I remind you that Kerry won Florida, Ohio, and Texas in the 2004 primary and if I remember right it had very little impact in the general election despite what the Clinton campaign likes you to believe.

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[beachdrivegirl]

BTW Bush won New York and California in 2000 and 2004 primaries and wasnt able to be competitive in either state during the general election. The primary voters have little to no impact on the general election and this has been shown throughout history….

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[beachdrivegirl]

This is why obama is the better canidate

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[JoB]

A well written piece…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/24/AR2008042402976_pf.html

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[charlabob]

I can see why you think it’s a well-written piece, JoB–it sound a lot like you :-) However, as you, and the writer, know full well — the issue isn’t “saying negative things,” — the issue is THE PHOTOGRAPH OF BIN LADEN as part of the montage.

I would say, based on that article, that Clinton is no where near ready to stand up to the heat — perhaps she should get out of the kitchen, right after she takes the cookies out of the oven.

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[JoB]

you know.. i go to bed, i get up.. nothing changes…

Walfredo.. at no point did i ever say that the quotes in the daily show piece weren’t quotes.

i said they were taken out of context..

I am not confused… but apparently you are.

Charlabob..

thanks for pointing me to the piece… Although i am puzzled as to what you think my ignorance excused me of…

since i gave Senator Obama the benefit of the doubt without reading the piece…

but there you go… you can read anything you want into that.

I was and still am interested in the entire speech. I am very curious as to what he could have been saying that produced those remarks.

thanks to you i will know.

****

if it wasn’t for those who read these posts without commenting.. i would stop wasting my time here.

it’s evident that most of you who reply only read enough to find some small comment you can magnify into an insult to you or Senator Obama.

some days i would like to take a page out of your book and simply let loose on what i think is the incredible hypocrisy of both this candidate and this campaign… and maybe a few of those who post in his favor… in great and scathing detail…i am fully capable of true insults, you know.

i don’t do that for the same reason i don’t post link after link to anti-Obama blogs… it wouldn’t produce anything productive…

though my heart is beginning to wonder what my brain asked long ago.. what could possibly produce anything productive now?

I am tired of the campaign about the campaign.

I am tired of hearing about how dirty Clinton’s campaign is while Obama supporters hurl one personal insult after another at Hillary.

I am tired of having anything i say twisted and spun as some kind of personal attack.

But more than that.. i am bored.

I long for the days when good political discussion existed on this site… when there was an exchange of actual ideas…

the suns out.. hubby just told me Cindy Sheehan is going to run against Nancy Pelosi this fall and i have a couple of dogs who would like nothing more than to do something fun. heck.. even weeding will be a step up from this…

enjoy your saturday.

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[Anonymous]

From the Washington Post link:

*He (David Axelrod) was asked whether Hillary Clinton would bring “the changes necessary” to Washington, and his answer was “no.” This was in keeping with the direct, personal character attacks that the Obama campaign has leveled against Clinton from the beginning of this race.*

What am I missing? How is saying no, a personal character attack? How would one answer that differently if they think their candidate is the one who can bring change? This is an example of how negative Obama’s camp is?

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[charlabob]

G-d, Job, I wish I’d known you in a different context. I’m sure you can be a fascinating, challenging, rational person when you aren’t obsessing about defending the indefensible.

And NO I don’t mean Clinton is indefensible — I mean many of her statements and positions are. You’re clearly intelligent — and NO before you say it, I’m not saying no Clinton person is intelligent. I am saying that you’ve lost perspective in a big way — so you don’t notice that the Obama posters frequently criticize “our candidate,” and challenge his beliefs and actions. (When I say “you” I’m really referring to many of the Clinton folks that I know personally and that I read or run into in forums and talk radio.)

You can continue to say, “I haven’t read this but here’s my opinion,” but it doesn’t work. It’s not convincing. You can continue to malign people who get their information from the internets, but you sound like some retro-repug living in the 80s when you do it. You can continue to avoid answers based on quotes from horses’, um, mouths, but any logical observer assumes that means there are no answers.

BTW, Sheehan announced she was running against Pelosi months ago — she’s running as a third party candidate. (I got that from the internets and from friends in California who thought I’d support her candidacy–I don’t.) Pelosi also has a primary opponent, Shirley Golub — (www.shirley08.com). Interesting person — go read about her. Teacher turned car repair person.

I, too, continue to post here for the lurkers, and for the people who thank me, publicly and privately, for information that expands their knowledge. For example, the information about Clinton’s law school internship and about Wright’s speech both drew emails from people who went off and read or listened and found out something they didn’t know.

If you run out of weeds, I have more — help yourself.

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[JoB]

JT…

the real question… is not how would one answer that differently if they they their candidate is the one who can bring change but how would one answer that differently if they think their candidate is the ONLY ONE who can bring change to Washington.

one has to ask in this particular climate.. what democrat could not bring change to Washington?

a true assessment is that he believes his candidate could bring more change…

There is no assumption of basic courtesy to and respect for one’s opponent in the Obama campaign.

and does she really deserve to be called “one of the most secretive politicians in America today” .. or condemned as having “a special interest obsession.”

“Obama himself has joined the character assault from time to time, saying, for example, that Clinton “doesn’t have the sense that things need to change in Washington” –”

These are purely personal remarks…

If you honestly believe there is any measure of respect for Hillary within the Obama campaign..

can you explain to me why he is now campaigning against McCain.. when he has not yet secured the democratic nomination?

if dismissing your rival candidate.. a female candidate.. as totally irrelevant isn’t a personal insult.. i have to ask you what is.

i will admit.. it is difficult to see any negative comment about Hillary’s character as an insult to her character when the republican press has done such a great job of making character assassination of Hillary a daily part of America’s assumptions…

but that doesn’t make it ok for her democratic rival to do the same…

or.. if it does… then she should be able to do the same to him…

it isn’t a whine to ask for equal treatment… the same standard applied to both candidates…

but it sure can be dismissed as a whine.. the same way Senator Obama can dismiss Hillary as a candidate without bothering to win the nomination first…

It doesn’t make it right or fair .. or respectful.

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[charlabob]

“can you explain to me why he is now campaigning against McCain.. when he has not yet secured the democratic nomination?

“if dismissing your rival candidate.. a female candidate.. as totally irrelevant isn’t a personal insult.. i have to ask you what is.

This is the single most ridiculous thing I’ve read: Let me get this straight — the Dem candidates shouldn’t campaign against McCain because they haven’t won the nomination?????

Pretty much every Democrat in the country is bemoaning the fact that we’re not campaigning against McCain and you have the audacity to complain about it and say it shows disrespect against the (WOMAN!) candidate.

As far as I’m concerned, if I were still on the fence, this alone would push me over to the Obama side — I repeat, CLINTON IS RUNNING FOR CLINTON, NOT FOR THE PARTY — the Clintons could give a rat’s ass what happens to the party. That’s why they won’t campaign against McCain or against the right wing buffoons who support them.

I’d suggest, when your candidate loses, that she and Lie-berman start a third party and run together. That’s where she and her treacherous lying spouse belong.

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[Anonymous]

JoB, I would respectively have to disagree. Whenever I have personally heard Obama asked a question about Hillary, he is quick to compliment her qualifications and character. Granted, I don’t hear everything, but what I do hear is positive. On the other hand, I have watched Hillary have to be beat over the head before she will begrudgingly admit *he’s Ok*. And even then she’s not sure.

This isn’t right wing talking points. It’s physically out of their mouths.

And to the campaigning against McCain. Why are you assuming it’s an attempt to dismiss Hillary? My question, is why isn’t Hillary campaigning against McCain as well. That’s what I’d like to see more of so I can tell the difference. I’m sure the independents would like to see that too.

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[JoB]

charlabob…

I didn’t condemn anything. i gave Senator Obama the benefit of the doubt when his remarks were quoted out of context. I said so several times.. several different ways…

yet this is what you post…

“You can continue to say, “I haven’t read this but here’s my opinion,” but it doesn’t work. It’s not convincing. You can continue to malign people who get their information from the internets, but you sound like some retro-repug living in the 80s when you do it. You can continue to avoid answers based on quotes from horses’, um, mouths, but any logical observer assumes that means there are no answers.”

So.. either it’s not ok for me to take Senator Obama at his word without verifying the entire transcript…

or you simply believe i am a liar and the i had some malicious intent in my words.

Since there are plenty of past posts verifying your intent to the latter interpretation.. i am going to take you at your word…

and that Charla.. is a personal insult… one in a string of insults and innuendos you are no longer keeping to the political threads.

i would ask who has an obcession…

“I repeat, CLINTON IS RUNNING FOR CLINTON, NOT FOR THE PARTY — the Clintons could give a rat’s ass what happens to the party” …. “I’d suggest, when your candidate loses, that she and Lie-berman start a third party and run together. That’s where she and her treacherous lying spouse belong.”

I won’t even begin to count the number of personal insults contained in that obssessive tirade… the likes of which have never been written by me.

I am sorry Charlabob.. i am not going to reply to anything more that you post.

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[JoB]

i had to go further than i thought to find this…

I apologize for the long post.. but this is actually interesting…

those remarks were part of a comment that was far more self serving and ultimately demeaning to that group of voters than the soundbite… so in this case, I actually gave Senator Obama more credit than he was due…

And i would never have looked further if i hadn’t been irritated enough to go look for it…

BTW.. found on Huffington Post.. you can listen to the entire talk.. all 50 minutes of it. i didn’t.

these remarks were part of a fundraising tour in SanFrancisco that included at stop at the Getty Mansion for a closed door $2000+ a seat fundraising dinner… that generated some very big bucks… in the multiple millions…

Sometimes, the audience is part of the context as well…

You see what you think…

OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it’s fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre…I think they’re misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to ‘white working-class don’t wanna work — don’t wanna vote for the black guy.’ That’s…there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today – kind of implies that it’s sort of a race thing.

Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).

But — so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What’s the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is — so, we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing — close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide health care for every American. So we’ll go down a series of talking points.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you’ll find is, is that people of every background — there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you’ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I’d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you’re doing what you’re doing.

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[JanS]

I heard a comment last night by a man who is a native of Scotland, and became an American citizen this past summer. He is extremely passionate about being an American citizen..he said…and I paraphrase….you can squabble amongst yourselves about the candidates until the cows come home…but…if you don’t go and put that X on the ballot when you’re supposed…..then just shut up. His bottom line was..put your money where your mouth is. I know we’re all going to do that…we all have passions about our candidates…but…getting personal, and nasty doesn’t have a place, at least not here, IMHO. Keep up the dialogue…keep an open mind…they are all politicians, they all exchange insults, the all sometimes don’t take the high road…and all sides need to be called on it.

Picking on McCain is my primary thing…it’s gotta start sooner or later..I’d like to see it before the Dem convention in August. There’s too much about this man that we’re letting slide by right now…again…MHO..

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[charlabob]

That was Craig Ferguson — he’s emceeing the White House Correspondent’s dinner tonight (the place where Colbert got his real start). I can’t wait to hear/see what happens.

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[JanS]

I have a mad passion for Craig Ferguson…yes, it was. That man can park his shoes…well, you know what I mean….any time he wants. He was also on Dave Letterman last night…weird how they pretape things – lol…first on the east coast, then on the west coast…then back to the east coast for tonite…hmmmm..Charla..you out there? it’s on CSpan right now….8:00pm

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[WSMom]

Hi JoB:

Thank you for posting all of Sen. Obama’s comments made in SF. You know, I agree with his explanation of why folks will “cling to guns or religion”. I’ve never understood why middleclass and poor folks would vote republican when they don’t fit into the “haves & have more” base. The concept that folks have been economically left behind and don’t believe the govt has an answer for their economic problems so they focus on issues they believe they can make a difference on…gun rights, anti-gay marriage, flag burning etc. (republican value smoke screens in my opinion). My reading of his words makes me encouraged that he has empathy for poor and middleclass people and an understanding of some peoples motivations that has until now mystified me.

I think Sen. Clinton also has the interests of all people (especially women and children) at heart. I am one of those lurkers who always takes the time to read what you have to say. I’m sad to say that recently some of Sen. Clinton’s words and actions have disappointed me. I’m glad though that she has someone as passionate as you in her corner.

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