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May 31, 2008 at 9:56 pm #621374
charlabobParticipantFWIW, NR, I didn’t think you were rude either. And, frankly, I do play with the big kids (on Sound Politics and Horses’ A**) so BDG is absolutely right — all of this is pretty mild.
I am in awe of your persistence and your articulateness — and sometimes I want to shake you, but only metaphorically :-) How could such a smart woman come to such lame conclusions???
I expect you to persist throughout the campaign, because it will get better/worse and we need you. I’ll be disappointed if you don’t. (Oh, by the way, we seem to be back, don’t we?)
May 31, 2008 at 10:43 pm #621375
AnonymousInactiveCharla – We just couldn’t help ourselves, could we?
The similarities become more and more obvious! Lol!
Thank you for those kind words.
June 1, 2008 at 12:27 am #621376
JanSParticipantwell, I , for one, am glad you’re back…let the good times roll :o)
June 1, 2008 at 1:35 am #621377
AnonymousInactiveThank you, JanS.
You never know, I may start feeling too much heat and bail out again.
It’s hard to defend one side all by yourself!
You should all take that as a compliment because I actual know that you are all more educated on this whole political thing than I am. I’m doing my best and will try to stay above water.
June 1, 2008 at 3:56 am #621378
ellenaterMemberHI I just thought I’d chime in on this. You guys have probably got it all worked out anyway, but here goes:
I see this time period as very exciting and think the excitement is not due to any one issue. It is a result of this entire election process, both Democratic candidates, the complexity involved in their ‘newness’, and to the urgency to redeem ourselves as a country after this Bush administration.
Personally, I am not a fan of Hillary Clinton. I am a woman and am deeply disturbed by the example she is setting. I feel that there is a lot of misogyny out there, especially in politics, and that her actions in this primary are doing nothing to heal it. In fact, she is exacerbating the issue. I’m not saying she is responsible for misogyny. I am saying she is responsible for her own actions which do nothing to change that mode of being. Every time I turn around, Hillary is doing something that I consider unethical. This is sad to me because I want to want to support her.
I don’t however, think she should drop out. I just don’t think she should make up false reasons to stay in. One does not negate the other although it may appear to. She should stay in the race if she chooses but she should not say she has won the popular vote (by not including caucus states and including Michigan and Florida). This lack of ethics is damaging her credibility and I think it is very revealing of her character. In my mind, Hillary is doing more damage to future female candidates than she is to plowing the road. I wish she would have some grace occasionally and I wish she would speak from her heart. I don’t believe her when she speaks because she strikes me as a desperate opportunist, always changing her story from day to day. Hillary, in my opinion, has primarily earned blind support from feminists and, votes of “working class whites”. I don’t see her as having a broad appeal, despite what her campaign says.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Barack is perfect, either. But I do think he is running a more ethical campaign and that he exhibits more depth of character than Hillary. My opinions are personal, but they were gleaned from watching the candidates’ actions closely these last few months. I do not think we need a president who knows everything about everything. But I do think we need someone who is capable of realizing they’ve made a mistake and who will work to redeem that mistake. We need someone who will seek help from others and who knows how to compromise when working in a group. We do not an opportunist who lies and disenfranchises entire groups of people to further her own cause. This type of person is not going to be a great leader, regardless of gender or race.
So as a die-hard feminist, I am saddened by Hillary’s actions. I don’t think she is fit to run our country because she does not hold herself ethically accountable in the same way Barack does. And if her supporters were to withhold their votes from another nominee because Hillary was out of the race, then they clearly don’t hold themselves accountable either!
Thank you for listening.
June 1, 2008 at 4:09 am #621379
AnonymousInactiveellenater, that about sums it up. Well said.
June 1, 2008 at 4:36 am #621380
charlabobParticipantWelcome, ellenator — it’s good to hear a new voice–i’d feel the same if we disagreed. Everyone’s political opinions are personal — politics affect every aspect of our lives and it always scares me when people sneeringly claim something is “political.”
I hope you stick around and jump in on all the political (and other) threads here. And if you have any Republican friends, send them over to back up New Res. Sometimes she must get tired :-)
June 1, 2008 at 6:10 am #621381
AnonymousInactiveANOTHER Obama supporter!!!???
Where are all the Republicans!!??? I know you’re out there!
June 1, 2008 at 6:11 am #621382
AnonymousInactiveThank you for that, charla!
June 1, 2008 at 6:46 am #621383
JanSParticipantellenator…welcome…glad to see another posting on here…and I hope you find a home in WS soon :)
NR…we’ll find you one, sooner or later…;-)
June 1, 2008 at 6:55 am #621384
ellenaterMemberlol! My best friend over here in N. Seattle is a Republican. But she has other good qualities. ;)
charla, I thought what you said was very poignant. It IS scary when people disengage in that way. It’s equally scary when people see politics as only a game and therefore as irrelevant to our lives.
June 1, 2008 at 2:47 pm #621385
KenParticipantellenater,
The die hard feminist in my immediate family all seem to agree with your view.
This will be over soon. We hope.
The dressers are chasing the fat lady around backstage with the costume for the final scene but she is spry, athletic and determined.
If this takes a tranquilizer gun to bring her down on the floor of the convention, even the dumbest Republican candidate in 30 years will have a chance to win.
The last chance to avoid serious damage to the republic was 2004. Now we need someone who will at least do no harm. HRC has shown she is not that person. Whether Obama is, will be determined in the next few years.
The damage is so deep and widespread, that whoever gets the presidency will have to do things that will make make them unpopular with several groups.
June 1, 2008 at 3:48 pm #621386
KenParticipantA link for the McCain-o-crats. (HRC supporters who swear they will vote for McCain over Obama in the fall.)
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/1/8216/94358/221/526603
Also link only posted on the McCain? thread.
Excerpt:
Thus is born a new subspecies, McCain Democrats, McCainocrats.
If your shrieking can be believed, you McCainocrats are premeditating ballot support for an exclusive club of racist, union-busting, woman-suppressing, bedroom-peering, rights-scoffing, warmongering, torture-backing, buccaneering, global warming-denying, privatizing, public land-grabbing, Supreme Court stuffing, empire-building, Constitution-shredding raptors. All for self-indulgent revenge. You’re unhappy that your candidate has not won the nomination. I understand that. Mine didn’t win either. But you’re not just unhappy, you’re also willing to contribute to the election of someone who stands against most of what your candidate has been promoted as standing for. That, I don’t comprehend at all. Emotionally, intellectually or morally. I get the feeling you would vote for George W. Bush in 2008 if the 22nd Amendment weren’t in the way.
You McCainocrats might recall that you have ancestors.
Continued at link.
Note: this links to the Great Orange Satans blog at DailyKos. Republicans please remember your protective gear.
June 1, 2008 at 4:24 pm #621387
charlabobParticipant<From Ken>
The damage is so deep and widespread, that whoever gets the presidency will have to do things that will make make them unpopular with several groups.
<End Ken>
This is SO important and I’ve seen hardly any discussion of it. Obama alluded to it and was accused (by Repubs and by Clintonistas) of dismissing the American(sic) dream. He is not destroying the American(sic) dream–that exercise was begun by Reagan and completed better than anyone could imagine by GWB.
The first job of the next president will be to save us from even more the American(sic) nightmare. It will cost a lot of money (and reallocation of money) and a lot of work and I’m not totally convinced we’re capable of either. But, on my worst days, I’m an optimist–so, as they say, bring it on. But never think it will be painless or easy and never think any of us will not have to sacrifice. Thence, the loss of popularity for any president (and leader) who “gets it.”
June 1, 2008 at 8:34 pm #621388
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB: if you are reading this i highly urge to turn on your tv and listen to obama address south dakota. Not only will it help you learn about his policies and plans; but also let you hear him speak highly of Senator Clinton.
June 1, 2008 at 9:26 pm #621389
ellenaterMemberKen,
That’s nice to know. All the die-hards I know are for Clinton…blindly. Ya, I don’t know what she’s doing. Only she knows. But there does seem to be an element of manic there. She thought she had it in the bag. I wonder if she stayed with Bill to be some kind of superteam. Oops.
Ya, in terms of Obama, we shall see. I hope he can stand up to the lobbyists.
I like what you said about sacrifice, Charlabob. It needs to be personal and we need to stop passing the buck blindly to politicians. It’s inevitable that some of the bad juju we’ve put out there for so long will come back to us. Hmmm. Gas prices.
BTW, you can see all of Obama’s speeches on his website. You can also see a lot of them on You-Tube.
June 2, 2008 at 3:27 pm #621390
walfredoMemberHillary’s popular vote “victory”.
Just in case anyone is confused about Hillary’s “victory:
#1- there is no popular vote. Each state has there own nominating process (caucas, open primary, closed primary, two-step etc.) Delegates are proportioned to reflect equal representation to each state based on democratic voting population. Under the popular vote method, states w/ open primaries (allow all registered voters to vote) get almost twice as much say as a similar sized state with a closed primary (dems only). And 1/5 of the electorial college has no say, as they hold caucases…
But okay, thats logic. Let’s just deal with the statement from the campaign-
Clinton wins the popular vote if you:
a- count both unsanctioned elections exactly as voted, giving Obama 0 votes in Michigan.
b- exclude all caucas states- a full 1/5th of the electorial college
c- count all votes of territories that do not have a general election vote
d- you count primary results from Texas, but not caucas results.
e- You do not count “selective” primaries in Washington State and Nebraska, because they were not used to select delegates.
That’s it. Makes sense to me. Clearly Hill won. Delegates don’t show the will of the people, the metric made up by the Clintons above clearly does. Game Over.
June 2, 2008 at 4:24 pm #621391
KenParticipantNow you’re playing Clinton ball.
Reference for the young reader.
June 4, 2008 at 2:22 pm #621392
JoBParticipantNothing changes, does it?
You are on the brink of victory.. and the conversation still centers on how poorly Hillary ran her campaign and how dishonest/amoral she is.
And now you have picked up a new thread.. how Hillary reflects poorly on all women.
This isn’t even worthy of comment.
But there is something that is.
Have you thought at all how all of this is going to effect the millions of people who supported Hillary.. who still support Hillary… and whose vote for her had nothing to do with her sex or his race?
Now that might be worth thinking about…
of course, you could just condemn them along with all those ignorant people who don’t know what’s good for them and those racists who only voted because of race.. and those misguided old women…
(all your comments… on this thread…)
That’s an election strategy i haven’t seen used before.. and one i am not going to participate in.. but who knows.. you seem to think it will work.
June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm #621393
walfredoMemberJoB- would you argue that the campaign you adamantly have been supporting intentionally alienated and discounted the votes of blacks, elitist, latte liberals, eggheads, caucas states, party activists, and young voters?
It’s a little hypocritical to say you’ve never seen that election strategy before, when the Clintons invented it.
What folks are missing on the Hillary side, is that Obama supporters weren’t arguing that these votes shouldn’t count (like the Hill’s camp was for the voting blocks named above), but instead were arguing that they should not count more then the folks that Hillary had labeled as unimportant… That the rules of the game should not be changed for them. That is not the same as saying they don’t count. I never once heard an Obama supporter say he should win the election, whether or not he finishes ahead, because her constituencies aren’t important. I heard the reverse of that consistently for the past 3 months from the Clinton campaign, and it clearly alienated most superdelegates instead of attracting them.
June 5, 2008 at 3:17 am #621394
KenParticipantOne question for you Clinton bargaining chips out there.
What does she want? What will it take to get her to work for the Democratic party again? All I still hear is ME!ME!ME!
While Obama is saying We.
If you can’t answer that, then please tell me what it will take to get her to STFU and get out of the way.
She ruined any chance of a VP nod by taking that last chance to pee in the pool on Tuesday night.
They now say she will concede Friday. I suspect some of her own supporters rolled her up in a carpet and sat on her to get that announcement on paper.
I will believe it when I see it and I will bet she will not be able to resist a bit of “damning with faint praise” when the situation presents itself. Bill will be off the reservation for weeks yet.
June 7, 2008 at 8:12 am #621395
AnonymousInactiveThis is just unbelievable to me. I think these people should be ashamed of themselves. It’s not about issues, beliefs, the direction this country should go in.
No, it’s just about *you* and whether or not *you* feel listened to. Get over yourselves. Most of us aren’t listened to. Why on earth do you think you’re special? I simply can not fathom why the greater good is not your priority.
Hillary Clinton supporters for John McCain
Hillary Clinton supporters count too
June 7, 2008 at 8:38 am #621396
JanSParticipantand I was just watching CNN earlier, and…they were giving the results of a poll that was taken re: Clinton supporters and how they would vote in November….and there were more who said that they wouldn’t vote at all than there were those who wold cross over and vote McCain…I think that’s unconscionable (sp)….so they don’t give a hoot where the country is going, they just didn’t get their way, so gonna take their ball and go home…
June 7, 2008 at 8:47 am #621397
AnonymousInactiveI know. It sucks to lose. I would be pissed too. But c’mon. You’d rather be a part of our country becoming a worse mess by keeping republicans in office? That’s just selfish.
June 7, 2008 at 3:48 pm #621398
charlabobParticipantJust call me a cockeye optimist (I dare you) but I think they’ll come around. There are many months before the election. Many months of McCain Fox Paws. Many months of Obama directness and innovative approaches to our many problems.
I’m getting tons of email from the McCain team as (what they think is) a disaffected female democrat of a certain age and hue. Latest? Something from Lieberschmuck about an organization he is starting to recruit refugees from the “Democrat Party”. Yup, he drank the “Rat” kool-aid(tm). That’s persuasive.
So, I think we have a great story, and reality, that will only get greater. And McCain has, um, Lieberman???? They’ll come around. :-)
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