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May 31, 2009 at 3:01 am #591067
TheHouseMemberWait a second, I’m a bit confused.
The last time I checked, everyone in the United States is allowed healthcare. You just have to have insurance or pay for it yourself. To my knowledge, people aren’t flat out denied healthcare.
Oh, wait a second did they mean to write “Healthcare For All Paid For By Someone Else”?
May 31, 2009 at 3:16 am #668285
JanSParticipantGuess what…with the things that have gone on in my life, a monthly premium might cost me 1000 bucks. I take a cancer drug that costs $440 per month because there’s no generic.No way could I afford that with no insurance. Are people denied healthcare? Damned straight, every day. Maybe not in your world, but it’s out there. You’ve never been on the receiving end of being denied…I have..don’t tell me that it’s not happening. You don’t know what it’s like to be told that they can’t treat you because you’re not in pain, so it doesn’t constitute an emergency, go find treatment somewhere else. I’ve been told that. Don’t tell me that healthcare isn’t denied to anyone in this country.
I am privileged to be receiving Medicaid at the moment because my cancer was found in a state sponsored program, the WA Breast and Cervical Health Program. If cancer is found during a mammo in that program, you’re covered until you’re no longer in treatment. I was not working when I had that mammogram 4.5 years ago. I had 2 tumors, one 4 cm, one 3.5 cm.That is not little. If I hadn’t had that program, I would probably be dead today, as I couldn’t get affordable insurance because of a previous condition.And there is no way on g-d’s little green earth that I could have footed the bill for treatment myself. Your (and my) tax dollars paid for that, and I am eternally grateful. But…please educate yourself about people who are less fortunate than you. I would venture to say that you may have blinders on.
TMI? sorry..
May 31, 2009 at 3:57 am #668286
c@lbobMember“There were people — grown people they were — who expressed themselves longingly: they did hope to live to see the day, they said, when that boy would get his come-uppance! (They used that honest word, so much better than “deserts,” and not until many years later to be more clumsily rendered as “what is coming to him.”) Something was bound to take him down, some day, and they only want to be there!”
The Magnificent Ambersons, Booth Tarkinton
May 31, 2009 at 4:01 am #668287
flowerpetalMemberWait a second, I too am confused House, five days ago you said:
“I have always maintained that the site is useful for finding out what is going on in the community and have always commended the owners of the site for this. The forums are another story.”
But still you introduce new topics, unpopular and full of half truths. There is alot that I admire about you; but when you launch a topic with at most, half the knowledge of it; I’m disappointed.
May 31, 2009 at 5:06 am #668288
JoBParticipantTheHouse..
the percentage of Americans without health insurance is steadily rising and Washington state just cut access to it’s health insurance plan ending health insurance for many.
Health care for those without money and health insurance is nearly non-existant.
How is it that you have failed to notice the largest crisis facing our population today?
And that… if you can pay… stuff… it’s spendy. …
i have run up over $2000 in medical bills since the end of April… for little more than reassessment for chronic care :( and they aren’t done :( so far insurance has covered this month’s expenses.. but the next month will be on us. ouch!
I know too many people who deny themselves health care because they can’t get insurance at any cost or the insurance they have doesn’t pay much.
We have good insurance and i am still not looking forward to paying our part of the bill for this assessment. All it takes is an accident or illness to acquaint you with the failures in our current health care delivery system.
May 31, 2009 at 5:32 am #668289
KBearParticipantI don’t understand how anyone who doesn’t work for an insurance company or receive huge campaign contributions from the insurance industry could think that our current healthcare system is worth preserving. Emergency rooms are clogged with the uninsured, because that’s the only place they can get treatment (often for advanced conditions that would have been cheaper to treat at the doctor’s office, if they only had that option). Those who have insurance pay outrageous premiums (or their employers do) because hospitals have to charge enough to cover the money they lose treating the uninsured. American companies have to compete against foreign firms that have no healthcare expenses, because every other developed country has a national healthcare plan. Millions of Americans are forced to remain in low-paying or dead-end jobs just so they can keep their health insurance.
Oh, and by the way, The House, if you have insurance, your healthcare is already paid for by “someone else”. That’s how insurance works. Everyone pays a premium, and those who get sick collect the payments. The problem is, the insurance companies make a profit by denying people treatment. That’s why a national healthcare program would be better.
May 31, 2009 at 5:50 am #668290
HMC RichParticipantKBear, Single payer system? What do you think is best?
May 31, 2009 at 6:02 am #668291
KevinParticipantThank you Jan, JoB, and KBear for the EXCELLENT posts and being willing to share your stories!
May 31, 2009 at 6:06 am #668292
TheHouseMemberI’m provoking debate, folks. Nothing wrong with that, right?
So, nobody is actually denied healthcare. They simply can’t afford it from what you’re saying. If that is true, you are confirming my original post.
Do me a favor and research our neighbors in Canada’s Health Care System (they don’t have a National Program, but Regional and Provincial programs). Canada has a population of 32,000,00 people while the United States has approx. 10 times that population. It doesn’t work efficiently for a population the size of Canada and it would be worse in the United States (wait lists for knee replacements are almost at a year for example). A Socialized Health Care System in Canada(and that’s what health care for everyone means), means that you pay a monthly premium for healthcare in addition to your regular taxes. We are fortunate not to have a State Income Tax, but can you imagine how much it would cost you if you lived in a state like California and how poor quality care you would get?
Healthcare is a service, which has a cost of goods attached to it. If we moved to Socialized Healthcare, people would be rushed through to get to as many folks as possible. This causes medical staff to push people out using the path of least resistance, so they would most likely prescribe a drug quickly rather than do their due diligence and run diagnostic tests. This is what would be considered a diminished product (in my opinion).
The simple, but painful truth is that healthcare is not an inalienable right. It is a product/service that has a COGS. If too many people are using the services, but not paying into the companies then costs are driven up so that they few that pay carry the load. At the same time lawsuits must be controlled. Too many lazy people or people that are truly undeserving sue for malpractice, causing doctors to carry large amounts of insurance simply to keep their doors open. This is expensive and drives costs up as well.
Flowerpetal, there are no half truths here. The half truth was in the name of the march this afternoon. And yes, the forums still leave alot to be desired…..call me a glutton for punishment.
May 31, 2009 at 6:32 am #668293
Lucile 2MemberOh yes, since the government did such a GREAT job with Social Security and Medicare, we should put them in charge of health insurance for all.
No doubt our system is, um, shall we say interesting, but give me a break. Should we hand over our 401K’s next?
May 31, 2009 at 6:52 am #668294
HMC RichParticipantNHS in England gives basic services. The council’s(?) deny treatments and medications due to costs. Groups of citizens form to fight the government healthcare decisions. The waiting lists are long for procedures. Prostate cancer deaths are terribly high. Here is a link of some of the upcoming issues with European Healthcare: http://news.scotsman.com/healthofthenhs/Patients-warned-over-shortage-of.5230209.jp
At least in Britain people can go private and the people who can afford it do so.
On the other hand… Norway has a cradle to the grave system. I have heard that it is expensive to live in Norway. I was reading up on the difference or related articles concerning US vs Norwegian healthcare. I think both posts are relevant. The first is a blog from a Dutchman having to use Norway’s system. Also read the next post between Mark and Nils
Next is a link from a person in Norway who seems to be writing a term paper who compares and contrasts the two systems (and is trying to make sense of the US system. http://www.daria.no/skole/?tekst=4876
These are not experts but real people.
“Free” Healthcare would be paid by everyone in my opinion. I am not satisfied with our current system. Whether private or public there are restrictions and limitations.
Government institutions have to limit what they can do. Private institutions have to limit what they can do to stay solvent. Either way we have to pay somehow.
It is not an easy question. It seems the “elderly” (define that!) get the shaft. House is correct in saying that in this country Healthcare is not an unalienable right. I wish there was a perfect answer but there isn’t. I do not believe the employer based insurance system is good for us. I also think a system based on what Canada and the UK has would be worse. BUT I do not know.
I would like to hear other thoughts.
May 31, 2009 at 7:00 am #668295
WSBKeymasterWho/how it should be administered, I’m not going to opine, but I will say that going into business for yourself offers a whole new look at how the “system” works, or doesn’t work.
To get insurance that would allow some preventive care for my husband, son and I — all of us in EXTREMELY good health, knock wood — would cost well over a thousand dollars a month. So instead, we have a $550/month plan that at least promises we’d “only” have to pay several thousand if any of us (God forbid) had something catastrophic happen.
We weren’t the type to go hauling off to the doctor in case of relatively minor illness anyway, even when I had gold-standard insurance half covered by the employer I chose to leave. But now, forget it.
I’m thankful to be able to afford the catastrophic, high-deductible insurance, but thinking there has to be a better way. And then there’s dental insurance … sure you can live without teeth, but in the self-employed world, that’s fun too. Had to have my first (and sure hope last) “crown” last year. That was four digits of fun.
Maybe health care is not a basic human right? Is that the real debate here? I was discussing it with someone in e-mail the other day and reliving how things went when my mom was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer (next week marks 10 years since she died).
She had been long-term unemployed until a few months before her diagnosis; she was fired from her job shortly afterward for not showing up to work, and I paid her COBRA for the eight months she managed to survive (which for stage IV pancreatic cancer was pretty extraordinary).
That enabled her some basic care (there wasn’t much that could be done) and most importantly, inpatient hospice care (Group Health doesn’t do that any more, though) for the very end. If not for the quirk of fate that she’d managed to have been working long enough pre-diagnosis for COBRA to be available when she got fired, those eight months would have been even uglier than they were. She didn’t exactly burden the system – she chose not to pursue chemotherapy that at the time promised nothing more than a week or two of extra life – but even pain-relief opiates would have been massively expensive out-of-pocket for me to try to buy for her, I’m sure.
Very personal topic for almost everyone. But is the current system really the best we can do, as a great shining beacon of hope for the world?
May 31, 2009 at 7:02 am #668296
Lucile 2MemberI think a system based on what Canada and the UK have would be worse as well. I think we are in unique situation because of the population of our country. I don’t have the answers. I have lived in this country with and without insurance, and I was scared when I didn’t have coverage. But since I am an independent contractor and am considered uninsurable privately, I just signed some domestic partnership forms and now I am covered under my boyfriend/domestic partner’s plan.
I just don’t really trust the government do to it correctly. We need a health care system makeover, but I just get nervous letting the goverment run it (but I have no suggestions because I really don’t give this much thought).
May 31, 2009 at 8:55 am #668297
JanSParticipantThe House…please read what I wrote again. I HAVE been denied healthcare. I was told point blank that if I wasn’t in pain then it wasn’t an emergency, and they would not treat me. They offered alternatives that, when pursued, were denied to me. End of story.What part of that don’t you understand? It sucked, believe me. It wasn’t life threatening, but could have been.
We all have the right to the basic necessities of life..being healthy, having health care, should not be something that is only for “the haves”.(and just so no one jumps on me, we personally have a responsibility to our health, by taking care of ourselves the best we can) Not having health insurance isn’t because people are “lazy”…it’s because the insurance companies have priced them out. Yes, I’m a provider (preferred) with almost all health insurances, since I’m licensed as a health care practitioner. They help me pay my rent. But I also know the flaws, and the system that we have right now a lot of the time has nothing to do with medicine..it has to do with big business insurances getting more and more of our money. It’s not a simple thing to fix …but please, please don’t tell me that no one is ever denied healthcare…because you are simply wrong.
Charlabob…wonderful quote :)
May 31, 2009 at 8:58 am #668298
JanSParticipantLucile 2…who would you like to see running it, if not the gov’t.? The insurance companies? They’re doing such a fine job now, should we just let them have at it? So…you have the gov’t. on one hand, and big business on the other…there’s got to be something in the middle…no?
May 31, 2009 at 2:13 pm #668299
TheHouseMemberResponse to JanS: If I walk into 24 hour fitness and want to work out, they will deny me because I have not paid to do so (I am not a member). That doesn’t mean that I cannot work out through other means or other facilities. There are doctors out there that will treat you w/o insurance, but YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT.
It is unfair for you to expect me, my neighbor, and the rest of the United States to be burdened with costs that come from you (nor would it be right for me to burden you with my costs from me, my wife and two kids). You simply want to turn everyone into “haves” which is Socialism (Communism is a form of Socialism).
The issue with our current system is listed above in my other post….too many people using and not enough paying into the system (similar to Social Security).
And on another note, I would debate why Massage Therapy is covered by insurance companies at all (most do not, but some do). I have no issue with Physical Therapy being covered, but Massage? I would guarantee that this is abused by people which causes insurance companies to pay more than they really should which drives costs up. Massage isn’t the only abuse that’s out there, but I would guarantee it is a contributor.
May 31, 2009 at 2:35 pm #668300
TheHouseMemberIn response to lowmanbeach:
The debate over healthcare being a “right” is a completely separate subject and one that we probably should start in a different thread. It is difficult to debate this without emotions leaking into the conversation, though.
The current system favors people that are employed by a large employer that provides insurance and makes it very difficult for small business owners to pay large premiums when they’re already probably struggling to maintain profits in their small business. These are the people that definitely need to receive a break whether it be a tax break or discounted insurance rates. Small business is what drives our country and we’re on the verge of making it too expensive for people to survive this way.
Frivolous lawsuits for malpractice need to be eliminated at their source or possibly capped. Doctors are small business owners and they’re being forced to purchase millions of dollars of malpractice insurance just to open their doors.
Revamp the FDA. They are another reason why we don’t get the drugs/procedures that we need in a timely manner and they drive costs up.
Last, but not least…..NOBODY GETS A FREE RIDE. You must pay for healthcare by some means.
May 31, 2009 at 3:45 pm #668301
cathywMemberAnd for those of us WITH insurance I have been noticing, anecdotally and through personal experience, another trend: doctors and dentists who insist on unnecessary and fraudulent (and I don’t use that word lightly) treatments in order to pad their income. Since fewer people can afford to pay for medical care themselves and since so many of the insurance companies are denying coverage, the professionals are looking for other ways to make up for their loss of income. Maybe needs to be another topic.
May 31, 2009 at 5:17 pm #668302
JoBParticipantTheHouse…
instead of getting all emotional here.. how about we talk about the cost effectiveness of our current system?
It’s not cost effective. You personally pay higher premiums because health care is not available to those without health insurance until they end up in the emergency room at a hospital with a life threatening condition.. at which point the hospital uses the latest technology at the greatest expense to save their life.. and then… if successful… turns them out onto the street with no other option for follow up care than another life threatening trip to the emergency room.
Economically, it just plain doesn’t make sense to pay the high cost of emergency medical care instead of paying the much lower cost of preventative care and medication.
These are your dollars they are squandering. It would be much less expensive for you if everyone had access to the kind of care available in the rest of the civilized world.
As for getting what you pay for.. our medicare system is a great example of how that can work.
You get a basic plan from the govt… and then you have the option of paying for as much supplemental care as you want or can afford.
and there is a hidden bonus is the supplemental programs provided by health maintainence organizations.. doctors who do business with them have to accept their medicate plus patients…
which is another rising problem for health care access… the number of doctors and clinics who are no longer accepting medicare patients.
having minimal insurance isn’t enough if that insurance isn’t widely accepted.
And i wonder how happy you will be with insurance companies making medical decisions for you or your loved ones if the unexpected happens? After all, it is in their best interests to deny you care.
Lucille2..
aren’t you lucky you could work the system and get health insurance by signing some domestic partnership papers? And aren’t you lucky your “partner’s” workplace provides good insurance?
May 31, 2009 at 5:25 pm #668303
JoBParticipantcathyw…
some of what they are doing isn’t fraudulent… but many clinics are instituting policies that do increase our health care costs…
many clinics now refer patients to specialists for tests that were once done in your primary care doctor’s office.
that means you pay for both another consult (at about $500) and for the technicians to do the test.
In my experience, that has tripled the costs of some fairly routine tests.. such as an exercise stress test which requires only a treadmill and someone to monitor heart rate.
The new money saving trend towards digital records is also costly to patients and their insurers right now.
This week, the specialist i needed duplicated several of the blood tests that were done less than 2 months ago at another clinic because they weren’t available to her in her clinic’s computer database.. in spite of the fact that i had provided the clinic with a copy of the blood work results. Apparently there is no money to pay someone to transcribe paper records into the computer database.
These costs get passed along to consumers through the rising costs of health insurance.
There is a lot of penny wise pound foolish thinking driving the health care system right now.
May 31, 2009 at 6:02 pm #668304
JanSParticipantGee, The House…thanks for the endorsement re: what I do for a living. Again, educate yourself. You know absolutely nothing about the effects of massage on the body, what studies have been done, etc. etc. But I really appreciate your wise counsel. Tell it to my 5 year client who has had shoulder surgery twice, and who has stated that there is no way he could have worked again without me ( a painter by trade) This is not the place to debate the benefits of massage, that’s another thread. It IS a benefit of your insurance, just as chiropracty is, and sometimes acupuncture. I’m sure you are knowledgeable about these two treatments and their benefits, too. So maybe use them, and see if it makes a difference. Oh, you can’t have me bill insurance without a doc’s prescription, a specific diagnosis. We are not just a “fluff and buff” experience, providing sensual massage, happy endings, that sort of thing.
Let’s just say…I don’t know your business, and what it entails, and the importance of it, and you don’t know mine, and let it go.
May 31, 2009 at 6:04 pm #668305
JanSParticipantAny other massage therapists out there in WSB-land who want to debate this person about the benefits of massage? Maybe we can get him to do a sit-down with us, and we can all talk about it :)
May 31, 2009 at 7:28 pm #668306
TheHouseMemberNo need to debate the benefits of massage. We just need to debate whether insurance should cover it.
There are lots of benefits for consuming orange juice and using fitness clubs….it doesn’t mean insurance should cover those as well (you probably disagree though).
May 31, 2009 at 7:35 pm #668307
c@lbobMemberAfter living for over five years with no health insurance, we are extremely thankful that, through one of our jobs, we have the best health insurance available through an employee based plan in Washington. Microsoft’s is a contender, but I still think the one we have is better.
It still sucks.
Not that care has been denied to us, but the insame amount of paperwork that is “required” by the insurance companies that administer the plan is clearly designed to weed out anyone who lacks the time or inclination to fight about the initial denials.
No question in my mind, given the choice between somthing like Medicare on one hand, and Aetna on the other, I’ll take Medicare every time. Medicare minus ANY insurance company, that is.
The payment is through the tax system, much like FICA today, but EVERONE would be covered, working or not.
If we want to end free rides, we should start with the rapists of the environment, such as the oil and coal industries. Get them on the straight and narrow before worrying about malingerers getting a chest x-ray.
May 31, 2009 at 7:46 pm #668308
c@lbobMemberHouse must have crummy health insurace. Massage is covered under mine, and I get a break on health club membership, too. In fact, we have exercise equipment at work.
Another frog being slowly boiled.
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