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June 23, 2012 at 8:40 am #761530
HMC RichParticipantSomething about Fast and Furious is not right. Basically a couple of hundred Mexican Nationals dead and a U.S. Border Patrol Agent. Usually when people die from guns, Liberals are up in “arms” about it.
Crickets.
Bush had a similar plan called Wide Receiver that went on from about 2005 to 2007. They used rfid chips to try and track the cartel bound guns to stop illegal transport of drugs.
Fast and Furious was different. The BATF did not include the Mexican Government in the “sting” and it has essentially ramped up a Cartel War.
This is a monumental screw up. They lost control and tried to keep it under wraps. They also wanted to get 2nd Amendment types to be found guilty of illegal sales and then they could use that as ammo to curb 2nd Amendment rights. Conjecture, possibly, but now those documents are sealed.
Here is an editorial about the issue. It is slanted to the right but has the history of what has happened between Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious.
There are a lot of families who have lost loved ones because of this. This is terrible.
June 23, 2012 at 1:59 pm #761531
redblackParticipantI watched Richard Nixon get us out ..
…but no one saw him get us into cambodia.
Moreover, Holder’s request for executive privilege made no reference to White House involvement in Fast and Furious, which seems to have been run exclusively by the ATF.
so why isn’t issa grilling the ATF first, and following the chain of command?
the only thing that stinks about this is that issa is going about his investigations like the political hack that he is.
June 23, 2012 at 4:55 pm #761532
JoBParticipantredblack..
didn’t you know?
Fast and Furious was a conspiracy
started by the administration
designed to create killings that would incite the American people against guns
it’s just another way that liberals are trying to take away guns
guns have rights too
sigh……
it had nothing to do with the fact that American gun dealers are selling guns that they have every reason to suspect are ending up in the hands of drug cartels and other criminal elements
sigh….
June 23, 2012 at 6:46 pm #761533
miwsParticipantdidn’t you know?
Fast and Furious was a conspiracy
started by the administration….
Yeah, ‘cuz that Hussein is a commie pinko Kenyan Muslim!
guns have rights too…
…and they’re people. Just like corporations!
Mike
June 23, 2012 at 9:38 pm #761534
kootchmanMemberwhen you HAVE to induce gun shops to sell in those quanitities… the bad actor was not the legal gun dealers. How do you think they traced them back to the DOJ? Gun do not have rights JoB..gun owners do. Inalienable rights. Not subject to repeal.
Cambodia? Get real, that was a stores, and supply disruption raid… just like the Obama drones into Pakistan. That and operation Linebacker put NV in the seats in Paris. That was an operation wrapped in the Viet Nam conflict.
ATF has testified, plenty. That’s where the whistle blowing started. It was the DoJ reprisals against the field agents that blow the whistle that are part of the long string that brought us to this juncture. The agents and supervisors in the know we reposted, called back to WA DC.. and DoJ who is supposed to defend whistle blowers who bring government malfeasance to the attention of the respective IG’s … was the source of retribution on career officers…. from the political appointee side. Just release the papers…. this will all be over.. the guilty will be found, punished, Holder resign, … say… you don’t think there is an impeachment in that paperwork? Thatr would be a minor distraction for what appears to now be a double dip recession.
Moreover redblack… ATF is part of the Dept of Justice… as is the FBI… and ATF testimony has been the hush lid was slammed shut at DoJ… you do know we have had resignations from DoJ already. DoJ is dirty on this, and Issa has dozens of e-mails to the white House national security council staff from both ATF supervisors and DoJ senior appointees.
June 24, 2012 at 2:17 am #761535
JoBParticipantkootchman
gun dealers who knowingly sell guns to people that they know are likely to be using them to commit crimes are dirty…
but i don’t hear you hollering about them
it was that nasty DOJ that did it
and only after Obama took over
get a grip bucko
June 24, 2012 at 3:30 am #761536
kootchmanMemberThe were TOLD to do it. By ATF… they live on the goodwill of ATF. They did tell the ATF.. it is in written letters and testimony… dealers asking “are you sure?”… this is going bad and ugly… and we have e-mails and correspondence that says” carry on”…. we want them in the hands of drug gangs… that was the whole point of the program.
You don’t hear me screaming because in another of your diversions… the discussion is once again, not organic gardening, bad gun dealers or the Dow Jones … it’s about dirty business conducted by our government. It has cost lives and perpetrated misery. Now, we want to know who in DOJ is responsible and who in the White House knew it.. when they knew it… and why they are covering it up and punishing the whistleblowers.
Instead of cowering behing executive privelage.. time to get a backbone and release all the files… then we will know the full extent of the gun walking… and the involvement of all the parties… why is Obama sooo afraid of the truth? why are Obama supporters so afraid to hear it? If he and Holder aren’t lying… the documents will prove that too.. and won’t Issa look stupid? It cuts both ways …
June 24, 2012 at 2:07 pm #761537
JoBParticipantkootch..
in your zeal to uncover dirty business by this administration..
you might take a closer look at when this program was initiated.
and at who generated the idea in the first place.
June 24, 2012 at 2:11 pm #761538
miwsParticipantJune 24, 2012 at 2:18 pm #761539
SmittyParticipantJune 24, 2012 at 2:19 pm #761540
JoBParticipantmiws..
there is a difference between holding public officials accountable and a witch hunt..
What bothers me most about this is that those who whine about the deficit seem to think that the money for these continuing political witch-hunts that seldom produce results that would justify their expense are a good use of public dollars…
while feeding citizens out of work isn’t.
bah humbug!
June 24, 2012 at 5:56 pm #761541
waynsterParticipantYou know doesn’t matter who is in office. The Presidents use it abuse it congress uses and abuses it….around 40 yrs from now the world will know if it was right or wrong ague all you want it never will be settled…. even the smartest minds will hash it out for years…..and fox news will beat this rug until they find the right dirt even if there is none….
June 25, 2012 at 2:41 am #761542
kootchmanMemberNo one has to beat the rug. Release the documents. we won’t know if it was a witch hunt until we see the documents…. first things first. Stonewalling just increases the costs.
June 25, 2012 at 2:16 pm #761543
JoBParticipantcontext fellas context…
i hate to cite wiki.. but in this case it does provide some context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
if you are going to talk about something, you probably should know a little more than edited graphs or talking points…
Was this a flawed program? yes, it was.
Was it an Obama administration conspiracy to ….
why don’t you be the judge after reading wiki and following some of the links… including the “other” report that came out of congress
June 25, 2012 at 2:17 pm #761544
JoBParticipantkootch..
Issa and the panel were invited by Holder to examine all of the documents in question.
they chose not to.
no matter how you present it, this is nothing more than political grandstanding… expensive political grandstanding
the same fellas who have no problem cutting food stamps for people have no problem spending your money on investigations they could have resolved by simply examining the documents themselves.
June 26, 2012 at 3:52 am #761545
kootchmanMemberJune 26, 2012 at 4:01 am #761546
kootchmanMemberNo they were not. Holder offered to give a summary, not the source documents, and in exchange for those redacted and selective excerpts, Issa had to “drop the case’. BS.. we have a dead federal agent. I have judged.. IMO.. the stonewalling is costing us the money and the energy. Just release the documents, generated by public servants, on public computers, while conducting the publics business. Yea.. and we spent how many millions on baseball steroid use? For what? Put those millions in the food stamp bin.. or the millions in voter ID legislations where DoJ has inserted its political agenda… how many million is that going to cost? Put those millions in food stamps too. There are 78,000 documents… not 7900. This is a cover-up… lord knows we have seen enough of them to recognize the stench,
June 26, 2012 at 4:50 am #761547
miwsParticipantAnd how much have the witch hunts that the repubs have launched against the last two dems in the Oval Office, cost the Country financially, and in lost legislative production?
Mike
June 26, 2012 at 6:59 am #761548
JanSParticipantand the money spent going after Holder? Obviously, Kootch doesn’t object to spending that…because that’s like going after Obama…and we should spare no expense doing that. Heaven forbid congress actually did what we sent them there to do.
June 26, 2012 at 7:45 am #761549
HMC RichParticipantI enjoy a good discussion and like communicating with many of you, but I gotta say some of you are on the wrong side of this.
I didn’t hear you guys complaining about money when they went after Tom Delay. I am all for spending money on curbing illegal activities by elected officials. If we don;t then we have CHICAGO. We have less problems if there is accountability (and transparancy).
If Holder and the Executive Branch would just do the right thing, much less money would be spent. It really is up to them.
Maybe Issa and crew are wrong but Obama’s executive privilege order covers it up. By using the Exec Priv, Obama just magnified the situation. My bet is that it is going to burn them which is why they are trying to block Issa and crew.
Plus the misinformation being spewed by circus barker Jay Carney is laughable. He said the other day that Congress should be working on the economy instead of worrying about F & F. WAIT A MINUTE, didn’t the President just tell us the economy was great? Then retracted? So why believe Circus Boy Carney? They can’t get their stories right.
JanS, Sorry, but yes, heaven forbid, but Mr. Obama decided to be a dictator and give children of illegal aliens a pass. (It is not in his job description to do that even if I agree with it to a point). Mr. Obama is not letting congress do there job by dealing with immigration. He thwarts the constitution so much. If it was the other way around the press and you guys would be piling on like they did with death tolls in Iraq. Speaking of death counts….
Only CBS covered the unfortunate 2000th serviceman death in Afghanistan. When it happened in Iraq it was on all the broadcast and cable channels.
So forgive me pointing out the bias here. Your guys have lost control. They are imploding right in front of our eyes. I actually wish it weren’t so. Their incompetence could be endangering many more people. I hope I am wrong.
Finally, Smitty’s link needs to be read. If you didn’t read it, then you shouldn’t post.
June 26, 2012 at 7:49 am #761550
kootchmanMemberJust hand over the documents. Simple. we could start a Democratic list…. let’s no pretend it hasn’t been done by Democrats. Yea.. this time the malfeasance in in the DOJ… so instead of feigned indignity, (you would be in 7th heaven if this was a Republican… like say the Valerie Plame incident, you do remember that one right miws? ) … poor, poor, poor, … Holder, here he thought his reward for all of his services as Obaman’s Wall Street bag man would be a breeze… but now, it appears in addtion to being a perjuring sorta guy, he’s concealing evidence from constitutionally authorized oversight. Release the papers.. ask your champions of justice to stop costing the taxpayers so much money…
June 26, 2012 at 8:56 am #761551
HMC RichParticipantAmen Brothers and Sisters: John 8:32 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
….and cost us less in the long run. Just as you say Kootchman.
June 26, 2012 at 3:24 pm #761552
JoBParticipantkootch..
no.. Holder offered to let them review the documents in private…
presumably to protect identities
but it is no surprise that the same folks who thought outing CIA agents was a good idea if it furthered their political agenda wouldn’t agree to that…
so executive privilege was invoked.
political grandstanding
paid for by American tax dollars
enough is enough
June 26, 2012 at 3:33 pm #761553
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
Issa and crew could have found out whether they were wrong and saved the taxpayers tons of money and they chose not to.
your argument is based on the assumption of a conspiracy led by Holder and that the executive privilege was used to protect him…
instead of making the assumption that the administration is protecting the identity of individual federal agents
not from prosecution..but from retaliation
There is no question that this program was not a good idea. But a federal conspiracy involving the Obama administration requiring a congressional witch hunt?
Nope. that’s just politics.
June 26, 2012 at 6:38 pm #761554
JanSParticipantrich..Obama is not letting congress do it’s job of dealing with immigration? What BS. Congress is not doing anything about immigration, and therein lies the problem. And while we’re at it, congress is doing nothing about the economy, or about jobs in our country. What congress is doing is devoting it’s time to making Obama look ineffective, to get him voted out of office in Nov. That is their job one, to the detriment of this country and it’s people. They will sink this country economically just to win an election.
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