does killing the messenger change the story?

[JoB]

this past weekend i have been posting publicly about the events at Nickelsville and that has provoked a couple of pretty personal attacks.. which have been removed.

It has also prompted re-framing the issues into personal vendetta against individuals…

I am not going to ask whether that is right or wrong. we all get emotional.

but i do want to ask how much weight character assassination has as an argument against an issue?

does killing the messenger actually change the message?

and if it does, even if the mechanism for doing so is simply making everyone want to avoid what looks like a catfight…

what is the best way to deal with it?

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[DBP]

I’ll take this one on, Jo. I think I have a right to speak on this, as someone who’s had whole threads flagged and removed, not because of anything I’ve said, but because of what SOMEONE ELSE said about a THIRD PARTY . . . on a thread that I started (and put a lot of work into, too).*

I think personal attacks are bad, and we should avoid them. However, I think we can, and should, handle these attacks by ourselves and not appeal to the forum moderators to intervene every time we have a squabble.

I think we should strive to create a culture on this blog where people are allowed to occasionally say outrageous things . . . but when they do, others will come on and say, “Hey. That’s outrageous. Nobody believes you.” Just like the thread you posted on the restaurant, where someone trashed you and then a bunch of other people came to your defense. I thought that was pretty cool how people defended you . . .

With a culture like that, hard-core outrageous commenters will either be discouraged and leave, or they’ll shape up. In either case, a lesson will have been learned and a better outcome will result.

I certainly don’t favor the approach of people flagging a post (and getting it removed) just because they feel like someone’s put them down. Or put one of their friends down.

That encourages a culture of tattling.

Granted, it’s a fine line that the moderator has to walk here. But mistakes in judgment have been made recently, and that has diminished the utility of this Blog as a true-blue community forum.

What we are heading toward now, I’m afraid, is more of a community bulletin board, where, if you wanna tell everyone that you’ve got a lost cat, or you want someone to mow your yard, it’s fine. But if you wanna talk about politics or other matters of substance, forget about it. That’s just NSFWSB.

* * * * *

*I also wanna note for the record that the forum moderators have been very tolerant of me and my oddball personality. But I’ve always seen it as a symbiotic relationship: They tolerate my antics, and in return I pull readers to the site.

But perhaps those days are over.

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[JanS]

my thoughts…personal attacks should be verboten. Comment on the topic, not the person who posted it, etc. There is no place for calling people twits, etc (yes, happened to me). We are a civil bunch…nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t have to be heated to be good…and after all, it’s all opinion unless you state your source. We all have them (opinions), just like we all have ____________ (fill in the blank – my word starts with an A – lol)

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[Spring Chicken]

Personal attacks only make the poster who wrote them look bad.

This isn’t a public website, we are all guests here and should respect WSB guidelines for what is appropriate to write, whether or not we agree with them. “Tattling” is moot when forum guidelines are being followed.

No offense meant DBP but your posts don’t attract readers to WSB nearly so much as WSB’s forum is attracting more readers to your posts ;)

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[miws]

Personal attacks should not be allowed.

Compared to many other internet forum and comment sites, WSB has relatively few, and very sensible rules.

WSB is an ethical, non-hyperbolic, newssite, and the Forums are an add-on that came about at the request of readers.

With all of the time and work WSB has in running the news side of business, they hardly have the time to constantly monitor comments here on the forums, and really, typically have very little time to go through reported comments/threads on a continual basis, and then deciding which comments need to be deleted, and then post an explanation.

I suspect they would have even more work to do, if the rules were looser, and more people would be inclined to post something that might be inappropriate.

As it is now, most of those that read/know, and respect these few rules, likely think twice about posting something.

Mike

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[dobro]

“…and in return I pull readers to the site.”

Do you have any statistics to back up such a claim? Or is it just a reflection of your own

high…uh…”self-esteem”, shall we say? Just curious.

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[Cait]

Any culture where personal attacks are OK is going to result in babysitting by TR and she has enough to do, you know, providing this resource for our community. Can’t we all just be respectful adults? Remember that this is a community-content blog, but we’re still playing in TR’s backyard when it comes to the forums. Would you want someone crapping on your lawn and then waiting for you to happen upon it yourself? Or would you prefer that she let her metaphorical backyard turn into one large crap pile? Those are your two options under your “let it police itself” situation because (and this has been time tested) things devolve very quickly on even the most benign thread. Have some respect for TR’s time and her backyard.

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[DBP]

dobro, yes, my stories and comments pull in readers, yourself included. People have told me this both on and off the Blog.

But if you need any further evidence, just look at THIS thread . . .

I don’t get paid for what I do, nor do I wish to. But I do put work into my stories and comments. People who read my posts look at the ads, which in turn helps pay for the Blog’s server space and salaries. So I pull my weight here and then some.

It’s not that I think I’m special. I certainly don’t WANT to be special. But I DO want to live in an online world that stimulates thought and imagination. I wish other folks would follow my lead and start doing their own amateur journalism. I’ve tried to encourage that, but so far I’ve had little luck. People are scared to stick their necks out, I guess.

* * * * *

Cait, you have identified the classic paradox of censorship. Thank you.

I have to say that I was personally disappointed when my pit bull thread got pulled and then you and a couple of other folks cheered. You posted like a dozen times on the I’m-mad-as-hell-about-dog-poop-in-a-can thread, because you thought that was very important. But when it came to figuring out a solution to the pit bull problem? –No. You didn’t think that discussion was worth carrying forward.

Baffling!

I was trying to create a respectful environment with the pit bull thing, but the whole thread got pulled because a couple of people started squabbling and broke the rules.

Let me tell you what’s wrong with that. —If you shut off a whole discussion just because a couple of people can’t follow the rules, then really what you’re doing is letting those people, the rule-breakers, determine what the rest of can and can’t talk about. In the case of the pit bull thread, the rule-breaking posts should’ve gotten pulled, if necessary. But the thread itself should’ve stayed up.

If the moderators don’t have time for this, then they should delegate someone else to do it on a volunteer basis. If they’re not willing or able to do that, then they shouldn’t be trying to run a “community forum.” Just go back to being a bulletin board and be honest about it.

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[DBP]

P.S. I’m not offended by your remarks, Spring Chicken, but since you’ve just handed me a chicken metaphor, I will say that this is kind of like the proverbial chicken-and-egg thing, isn’t it?

Yes, I’m an exhibitionist. I admit it.

But I give a good show for the money, too.

Damned if I don’t.

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[JanS]

so..we’re cool as long as we always appreciate what DBP posts, don’t disagree, and revere him for it.

Oh, btw…I was coming to these forums way before you decided to use it as your personal blog….where is that anyway?

Some people will disagree with you, some will find some of your posts offensive, some of your posts will belong somewhere else…and some will be terrific…but your own pat on your own back, so to speak, really surprises me. Many people contribute on here..that we don’t all want to be in journalism is a choice that we, as adults, have.

You’re thinking a lot of yourself these days, aren’t you? lol…love your humility…

and…”just look at this thread”? Thread was started by JoB…but your comments in the second post pulled the readers/commenters in? Really?

I still love ya :)

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[Barry2012]

I couldnt agree more with Jans statements. Giving yourself a pat on the back because you comment on this blog more often than the rest of us does not mean that you are “pulling in readers”. Period. In doing so you’re suggesting that part of the reason people log into the forums is to read what you write. Which couldnt be further from the truth. Its a local blog, not the New York Times (neither of which you are a writer for) and last I checked TR is the reason we login everyday to get our news.

You need a reality check from the online fantasy world you live in.

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[dobro]

“dobro, yes, my stories and comments pull in readers, yourself included.”

I guess if you consider anyone replying to a post of yours as being “drawn in” by you, that idea would be justified. However, since you’re including me in your fan base, I feel justified in letting you know that you’re dreamin’, pal.

“I wish other folks would follow my lead and start doing their own amateur journalism. I’ve tried to encourage that, but so far I’ve had little luck. People are scared to stick their necks out, I guess.”

Translation: If people were more like me everything would be great. Since they’re not, I guess it’s because they have a problem,because, heck, who wouldn’t want to be more like me?

“if the moderators don’t have time for this, then they should delegate someone else to do it on a volunteer basis.”

Gosh, I wonder who would volunteer for something like that? Maybe some guy who’d love to have a title and some power to make things a little more in his own image…hint, hint.

I must admit you’ve given me a good laugh today.

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[WSratsinacage]

It’s interesting how this started out as a “don’t attack the messenger” thread but it has quickly turned into lets attack/trash DBP.

Hypocrites.

I think I am done with this blog. Just not worth it anymore. Hope you are all happy with yourselves.

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[dobro]

“…has quickly turned into lets attack/trash DBP.”

I don’t see anyone attacking DBP. People are replying to clearly stated ideas with differing opinions. In fact, the only person on this thread who’s called anyone a name (hypocrites) is WSratsinacage.

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[JanS]

rats in a cage…first…Mr. DBP brought all of this up, so we’re commenting on what he said. Second, Mr. DBP is a personal friend ( at least he was last time I looked). I have met him on quite a few occasions, and have broken bread with him…and notice, I said I still love him…with a smile. I was just giving him a little ribbing.

Sorry if you misinterpretted it…

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[JoB]

i don’t think it’s any secret that i think it is good to be outspoken…

but it is also good to remember that we are all people who may disagree about ideas and still basically like one another…

the consensus seems to be that there should be zero tolerance for personal attacks .. and we all know we shouldn’t do it..

but the inclination is to take what is said personally and too often to make personal attacks on individuals instead of countering their ideas.

i will confess i have written and re-written many post multiple times before finally finding a way to reply that doesn’t blatently violate that rule…

contrary to DBP i don’t think there is much of a culture of censorship here… individual posts are generally removed for purpose…

like him however, it bothers me when i spend a fair amount of time crafting a reply that does not violate the rules, only to see it disappear wholesale in a culled or closed thread…

but i honestly don’t see what can be done about that without requiring the editors to spend an enormous amount of time sifting through the individual comments… and i for one would much rather they spent their time in more productive ways…

the question i had in mind is more what do we as a group think is the most effective response/non-response to a personal attack?

should we confront the bad manners of the attacker?

should we counter ideas and ignore the personal attack?

should we walk away from out keyboards for a day or two while the whole thing goes away one way or another?

i know what i want to do.

i know what i have tried in the past.. and to be honest i have tried every one of those tactics including leaving the room for a few days…

LOL.. i don’t know what worked better for you all…

but unless i can find myself a hot springs to soak in… walking away for a few days doesn’t really lower my blood pressure much.

and that’s an issue lately :)

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[Jiggers]

Everyone needs to go outside, get off their computers,get some fresh air and chill. Blogging will turn you into someone that you aren’t and don’t want to be. As I have said in my ‘jiggers updated thread”, I quit blogging for awhile for a number of reason’s.

Frankly, it got quite boring and I was doing nothing but wasting my time. Plus getting fatter lol. After a few months of not coming here, I decided to use a second screename that I created to see how I would be accepted by not agreeing and by thinking off the beaten path with the regulars.

Hence to say, you folks said I was nothing more of a troll and you complained to the WSB, and thus I wasn’t able to post anymore. I never attacked anyone personally. But I was trying to be objective as the thinker I am as well as be thought provoking. Everyone is a hypocrite and I’m even guilty of that at times.

But another disturbing trend here was how the forum has been manipulated by long-term posters here. If you don’t think so, I can go back into the archives the time I disappeared and dig up how the gastapo here gangs up on a new potential customer. I’ve seen it far to often since I’ve been aboard. Just my two-cents or three..Peace! Kumbaya my lord..kumbaya..lol

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[dobro]

Wow, so Jiggers was really hooper? This sounds like the beginning of WSB Mystery Theater! So who is DBP, really?

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[jissy]

Oh, Dobro! I think you are onto something! Getting my popcorn to see this play out!

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[Jiggers]

Sorry to burst your bubble dobro, I’m not hooper. DBP is deep throat undercover.

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[HMC Rich]

I’ll trash all of you equally. With a smile if you want.

I find DBP’s comments and sense of humor refreshing. Plus, he more than most of you questions the status quo. Whereas others trumpet a line that I disagree with but shows consistency. So Be It.

The hardest part of comprehending these posts is the emotion.

Love Rich, You Jerks.

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[Cait]

DBP – the pitbull conversation has been had ad nauseum on this board with no minds changed. I hate to tell you but it’s just not interesting conversation to tell people what they should and shouldn’t feel about a touchy, personal subject like that. I don’t have a problem with you but you certainly seem to have an axe to grind about my involvement on the forums.

My policy is and has always been this – these forums follow a very predictable pattern on certain subjects (dogs, leashes thereof, bicyclists and Nickelsville.) And I like to remind people that these things are a time sink and it’s not informative. Political threads on the other hand – I have learned PLENTY from those and have had my mind opened/changed a couple times (I hate to admit it but HMC Rich was responsible for that a couple times. And I had quite a few interesting conversations with Jo that helped me make a more informed vote.)

But these inflammatory topics like pit bulls, etc? They have outlived the life cycle of interesting/productive conversation when it comes to changing hearts and minds, yet people still try in the interest of entertaining themselves. Just know that you’re doing it on TR’s time as soon as you start attacking people personally. If you’re OK with that then fine, but don’t expect everyone to play ball. I enjoy a lot of your posts, but you do like to stir up a turd from time to time. I get it, that has it’s place… but it’s not productive to do it on the same tired subjects over and over.

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[JoB]

cait..

for some..

politics is the same tired subject as well… :(

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[Cait]

When you’re just calling the same people to the table every time, yeah. I agree. But it’s easier to tell with politics when people are fanning the flames for sport.

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[Tesla]

To JanS and Cait:

As to the two most recent pit bull discussions… first I will admit that I was very wrong (stupid)to toss in some insults which took away from the facts I posted even though Jan S and others, probably due to their hatred of this critical discussion contended facts posted were not true in an uninformed attempt to dismiss discussion re the danger of these animals or I guess to just call me a liar/mean.

As to the second pit discussion posted, JanS was posting as to why the discussion was not yanked yet even though all the posts were true and non insulting. It made it look as though Cait and JanS could make WSB delete important discussions because those ladies don’t want the issue discussed.

I continue to find Cait’s posts re this issue insulting to people who care about prev enting further deaths of humans not to mention the thousands of other pets killed each year as well as confusing as to statements such a pits are no different than other breeds. I encourage her to actually research the issue prior to posting.

I’ve mentioned a gang who seems to run the board and seems to be successful in doing so. As a result, nothing much of interest is allowed if controversial and not in the vien of items like “What I miss about WS”.

Have you noticed how few posts there are each day? It would be nice if we could go beyond the gang and have 100’s of posts per day respectfully presenting point/counter-point.

I challenge DBP to any issue and I’ll take the conservative position, he the liberal…then we could switch.

Depending on the issue I may or may not agree with DBP’s positions/ponderings, but am thankful he is trying to engage the community in higher thinking and help discussion in this community revive and come alive.

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