Blog forum etiquette needed

[SeekingEuros]

This is an open letter to the WSBlog team and the frequent forum commenters:

Recently i posted two different “seeking recommendations” on the blog forum. Both of the threads were hijacked, and both turned into critiques of either my offer or info i was seeking. None of my original posts (OPs) requested such – they were a simple offer or recommendation request.

While freedom of speech is a right in this country, the blog has allowed this to be carried to its detriment of its readers and likely to its revenue stream. My wife’s company dropped its sponsorship long ago, and she refuses to read the blog because of the behavior of unmoderated, prolific posters. Now i am moved to agree with her.

Message to those who just cant stop themselves from commenting or hijacking threads: your actions are having an adverse effect on the blog as a business. Unless someone is asking to have their thread/life dissected, refrain and let the poster obtain the info they are seeking.

Blog: today we attended a WS event and this issue of the WSBlog was discussed extensively. We appreciate your allegiance to freedom of speech, but 6 of our friends (plus DW) have discontinued reading (and/or sponsoring) the blog. We all came to the conclusion that you should ban these frequent hijackers from posting or create a safe zone from which you will ban the spammers. You are losing an audience. Pax tecum.

-30-

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[Infrequent Commenter]

I agree 100%!!!

So well stated, Seeking Euros. I am a longtime reader, and (as my name says), infrequent commenter. But lately I’m so put off by what I read. There is most definitely a ‘clique’ of frequent commenters that swarm around anyone that disagrees with them. I find myself reading and wanting to participate less and less.

That Housekeeper Needed thread is such a good example. Everyone should read that thread. Because he had the NERVE to describe the service he wanted and ask for references he got:

1) Told he really just needed a wife

2) Silly jokes

3) Long, rambling posts about how hard others lives are, or have been in the past

4) Criticized for working too much

5) Told to ‘lighten up’

6) Told to pick up after himself (because he’s an adult man, after all)

7) Told to look inward and evaluate his life(!)

I mean, seriously? He just wants a housekeeper! And after reading his description, I’m pretty sure I want one, too!

I have also tried to comment on stories and have been mobbed by this same handful of folks.

It’s like going to your neighborhood bar and discovering a junior-high locker room instead.

Big. Bummer.

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[JoB]

ROFLOL..

so you think we should only post as long as we say things you want to hear?

sorry.. that’s not one of the forum rules ;->

however.. not calling people names

or directing personal criticisms at people… not at ideas.. is.

epic fail here

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[Infrequent Commenter]

JoB-

So you think the seven responses outlined above are appropriate for someone seeking a housekeeper reference?

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[JoB]

Infrequent Commentator

so.. you think i actually made any one of those seven responses?

you might want to go back and read through that topic just a touch more carefully before responding.

at no point did i tell anyone all they really needed was a wife

nor did i tell him to clean up after himself.

what i said was that his difficulty finding someone that will pick up after him and his wife is likely due to the fact that house cleaners these days tend to think that isn’t covered in their job description..

i am not responsible for what you or anyone else reads into my posts..

or for other people’s reactions to what you or anyone else reads into my posts

what i am responsible for is what i say…

with that in mind… if i don’t go to bed what i say next will definitely do more than verge on the impolite… a line you are already more than familiar with

night all

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[twobottles]

So I’m 55 years old and have been involved in various electronic billboard, forum and social media pretty much since the concepts began; the problem described here has always existed, regardless of the online location.

The issue is that, unfortunately, is so much easier to be an idiot, jerk, bully, or any other offensive personality when simply typing on a keyboard as opposed to actual face to face encounters. Also, unfortunately, there are lots of people who take advantage of this.

So what to do? I’d rather not have any forum moderator decide who’s who, banning some, allowing others, I’d rather it remained an unrestrained, speak your mind forum location. Regardless of the snark, WSB forums are actually a great place of information exchange.

So my advice? Accept the good posts and blow off the bad. Accept that in this environment, there are lots of idiots that are best ignored. Also accept that there are lots of good people here with differing but equally valid opinions.

Oh, and by the way… this is, in the end, a privately owned website, providing the forums as a courtesy… thus, “Freedom of speech” is not applicable. WSB does not have to allow member comments any more than I have to allow a neighbor to put a political/election sign in my lawn.

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[WSB]

This is for the OP, which was the only post here when I started writing this:

Not too much I can say but that I appreciate you voicing your concern. The following is not a comment on any specific discussion, because I haven’t read any specific discussion to which you are referring – I was flagged to your comment here, which technically breaks our rules of calling something directly to a business owner’s attention, but I’m going to let it stand, and answer it openly.

You’re accusing us of too much freedom of speech? On the other hand, in matters in which we have intervened in the forum, or not published comments because they have broken rules, we are accused of “censorship.”

The main mission of this site is West Seattle news, 24/7 original coverage, but discussion – comments on news stories and, in the Forum, reader-to-reader discussions – are important too. The site has evolved over its seven years, as has the way we have managed it, as happens with any business. I’m sorry to hear that anyone would decide not to read the only complete source of around-the-clock West Seattle-specific news because of the reader-to-reader forum that the site has as something of a sidecar, if that is what you are saying is happening.

And regarding the sponsorship issue – I don’t know your identity, nor do I know who your wife is or what company you are referring to, nor whether they told us why they were ending their advertising whenever they did that. We don’t have long-term contracts, so sponsors come and go. A few along the way have told us they would not advertise here unless we removed something, or published something, and we have long made it clear that we don’t work that way, nor does any news publication worth its salt. But certainly it is a business’s right to decide where they spend their marketing budget and why, for whatever reason. And we very much appreciate those that have chosen to spend a bit of theirs here, to support 24/7 West Seattle news and discussion.

I’m especially sorry that if there are numerous people who have taken offense at something, that no one has called it to our attention; your openly published complaint here is the first complaint I’ve heard about anything in the forum in a long time.

We hold the forum open because it is a place that readers asked for, even before we became a business in 2007. It is not the main mission of the site. But we believe it is important to have a place where people can raise and discuss issues that aren’t tied to news stories in the main section. Because of the forum’s technical challenges, which have taken an odyssey to try to solve – ergo the spam that gets through, etc. (and we are embarking on another expensive round of attempting to fix it, in conjunction with an overall overhaul) – it’s been suggested to us more than once that we just shut it down, either temporarily or permanently.

If we did, we wouldn’t have a place for job postings, garage sale postings, non-pet lost/found postings, in addition to reader-to-reader discussions. It’s taken turns we didn’t expect; when we added Politics, again by request, it turned into a discussion zone where national issues came up more often than local, something I wouldn’t have expected, but that’s how it happened.

The forum is not a place people are required to frequent or use, or even to see at all, to benefit from this site’s main mission, which is West Seattle news/24-7. If it really is so offensive, so frequently, that its mere existence is enough to cause people not to use the main section of the site, I would hope to have the offensive content pointed out more frequently so that we can address it. Sometimes, people come to us with “how can I/where can I” and we point them to the forum, and they weren’t aware of it at all, even after 7 years.

We are reachable at editor@westseattleblog.com around the clock, and URLs are helpful when calling attention to a specific discussion. We spend most of our time in the main section of the site because reporting and researching news takes most of our time. But, again, someone sent this URL to me, and I wanted to respond as soon as I could. I really do appreciate help if something seems to have gotten out of hand. Slaying the spam that the filter doesn’t catch is most of what I’ve done over here for quite some time, absent specific flags.

thanks

Tracy

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[DBurns]

I’m actually glad you raised the point about etiquette; we all need reminders. This forum is a bonus to this amazing news site that much of the West Seattle community depends on 24/7. We need to remember and respect the gift the forum section really is.

Last year I contacted Tracy about being in the middle of more than one conversation about how the WSB was “bashing” a business with their coverage (not true) and “allowing people to trash (the business) all over the forum and in comments”. I told Tracy that I was concerned that it was affecting people’s perception of what the rest of the news site was about. I felt protective; I defended the reporting and told people that it was honest reporting and people’s honest reactions. The problem is that people are going to say what they want to say, and we all need to be able to step back and be critical readers – of all things, actually, and realize that every business is not going to please us every time. Just as I know as a business owner, that I can’t ever please all people. Impossible. What I hope people know is that we (businesses) can’t get better without feedback. We can’t defend or make changes (or not) without knowing what you think. So, bravo for bringing this up and I hope that you pause but can then come back and continue to enjoy the benefits of this news site. And for the record, I have emailed and called WSB several times over the years; I always receive a response. This is all about communication. You’re not always going to agree with everything – heck just skip the responses/comments from the posters that bug you, but discounting the value of this news source seems like only hurting yourself.

Thanks again for the reminder – hope it makes people take a second look before they hit “send”.

Donna

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[Mark32]

THANK YOU, Infrequent Commenter.

“There is most definitely a ‘clique’ of frequent commenters that swarm around anyone that disagrees with them. I find myself reading and wanting to participate less and less.” Exactly.

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[JoB]

Mark32..

could that “cliche” you referenced be people who actually post in the forum and participate in the discussions you read?

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[shed22]

Such adolescent behavior. If one has a problem with the forum, message the editor or just don’t go into the forums section. It’s that easy. Whatever is posted to the forums bears no reflection on the quality and fair reporting on the front page. If someone can’t separate the two, that’s on them, not the editors. Fortunately, the editors have common sense and don’t interpret the original posting as sabotage. I would have removed the post and blocked the OP from posting again. I am a jerk like that. The editors are not.

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[ElectricVehicleOwner]

SeekingEuros, it was nice to talk to you at church this am. I have not posted or read the blog in quite a while (i had to recreate a password, as we deleted blog connection) due to the rampant misbehavior. Certain posters (two whose names start with a J) are modern day electronic bullies, as their posts here and elsewhere are evidence of that behavior. Just because you can inject your opinion does not mean you should. TR, there were a dozen people who joined this mornings conversation at church and only one was still using Blog. When bullies join an e-conversation, MANY are unwilling to post. Sadly, last i read the blog, it had spread to the comments on the news page, which is why we quit. The bullies that derail is why SeekingEuro threw up his hands, as he has been unable to get the info he is seeking, as the bullies turn off serious posts. Yes i dont have to read them, but many wont post – what seems the purpose of the bullies.

We like the suggestion of a safe place, where the blog bans bullies or off topic injections. Leave the forum as it is and let the bullies duke it out amongst themselves. TR we have met and have talked about this issue, so i know you have had complaints about this behavior, which you appear to condone. Maybe also limit the number of daily posts, as some seem to comment on everything.

The wife reference was totally offensive – Those that don’t think the “its a wife” (that seekingeuros got in another comment category) are living in the 1950s… Join us, its 2014.

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[JanS]

shed22, while I agree mostly with you, I don’t think the OP should have been banned. Do I think said person went about it in the wrong way? Sure. But we’re all human. The OP was unhappy with comments in another thread, and decided to be public with it. “Frequent poster” cliques have been referred to, and I am considered one of them. But disallowing a person because of the number of times they post is wrong, too. And that’s what the OP wanted.

It’s an open forum, and sometimes things we start may not be how they end up. I truly am sorry that the OP felt so maligned that they felt the editors of the forum are at fault. The West Seattle Blog is a great source of news and information. The forum is not the news part. It is neighbor to neighbor communication. And compared to other forums I have been on, a civil oasis.

And for the record, I am a 67 year old woman. I made a comment, and stated that I was just kidding. I am no more a bully than the rest of you, calling out 2 specific people as bullies and insulting, and should be banned. The wonderful editor of this whole”blog/forum” certainly does not have the time to constantly monitor everything said on here. Censorship is not a wonderful thing. We all have to deal with our own behavior. I told the OP I did not intend to insult anyone, nor did I know if the OP was male or female, so how could I possibly know that there was a wife. I was going to be done with this, but my name is connected to a website that is about my business. And , once more, if I harmed the OP in any way, I apologize. But..consider where I’m at now, being maligned in people’s conversations in church, being called a bully publicly. I suggest we all step back and look inward. Now I’m done.

and, shed22, you’re not a jerk – lol….

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[bertha]

Before we post I think we all need to ask ourselves two questions: is it helpful and is it necessary. It is really very simple, if someone asks for help and you can help then post a response if not don’t post.

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[mark47n]

Open forum. An interesting concept. I’m most curious about people who post something but are unwilling to take the critical comments that can come their way.

I read the thread in question and found the wife comments to be tongue in cheek and SeekingEuros to be rather thin skinned. I didn’t find JanS or JoB to be insulting, but, as I’ve pointed out in other threads, I’m an industrial worker and have a pretty thick skin and high bar for what I consider an insult. I will also say that this thread is demonstrative of the stereotypical PNW passive aggressive behavior. I’ve lived in many different places and Seattle is the most passive aggressive and insular place I’ve ever lived.

I also noted, in this thread, that there was no mentioned attempt to contact TR about the OP’s complaint, a blatant violation of the posted etiquette of these forums. So…there is, again, posted standards of behavior for these forums.

To all of the people who want a safe zone; what does that even mean? Is that someone reading all of the posts and vetting them before their posted on the forum? If you don’t like the WSB then don’t read it. No one is forcing you to.

One last thing; calling the two Js bullies is ridiculous. I may not agree with them all the time (but I do most of the time) but disagreement is not an assault on my character.

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[waynster]

Can’t we all just get along or they will send us all here…..lmao (Jan and Job the biggest bully’s in town…ok lmao)

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2014/08/12#.VAN8M2PLasY

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[pigeonmom]

mark47n, you read my mind.

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[WSB]

Thanks again to everyone for being here and talking on an almost-sunny Sunday.

To Bertha – funny, that’s why I start and stop about a dozen comments in various places (from here on WSB to social media) every week. I start to type something I want to say, and then stop myself: “Wait, does anybody care? Probably not” and I get back to work :)

To the person who said they had a chat today with a dozen people who don’t read WSB any more because of comments/commenters. Are they no longer reading any news online? If so, where are they finding news publications with comment sections that never get fractious? Despite the fact that many sites claim to have no racism/sexism/name-calling/etc. rules, I haven’t seen a site yet that keeps those rules, which are really important here. (For one horrifying example, look up MyNorthwest.com in relation to a young woman who sat in a tree on Bainbridge Island for a few days to protest a development.) The comments and discussions on WSB are far tamer and generally more helpful, often more touching, than anything you will find at a news site, and if anyone is not using our site because of an objection to the fact that yes, sometimes they’re not, then I can only assume they are not reading news *anywhere*. Which of course is their prerogative – some people don’t care to know or participate in what’s going on in their neighborhood, and as a veteran journalist, I am all too aware of that.

It’s tough these days to stick to the principles of publishing news in a respectful, thorough, civic-minded manner – as we do – when the online sphere is dominated by “clickbait” headlines (produced by venture-capital-funded, national-advertising supported sites) screaming at you about the latest viral video you just have to watch and share with your friends right now. WSB isn’t viral. It is the *only* place you will find out what’s happening in neighborhoods all around West Seattle, from “what’s that siren for” to “what is SDOT doing about that safety problem” to “what’s happening at the community councils” in enterprised stories that do NOT all come from news releases.

If you don’t care enough to decide “I’ll read the news but not the comments/forum because I don’t like the people participating there,” then there’s nothing I can say to make you care. You can read 95% of the stories on WSB without ever seeing a single comment, because of the publication format we use – almost everything is fully published on the home page (where comments aren’t shown), rather than requiring a click to “jump” to a separate page, where the comments are shown following the stories (we only jump the longest stories). We don’t have promotion for other stories, other comments, or the forum on story pages – just the tab “Forum.”

Thanks for caring enough to at least drop by one more time. And for anybody who wants to have a conversation in person, we’ll be boothing again at the Car Show in two weeks. As usual, we spent many hours tabling this summer at festivals. I don’t remember a single soul stopping by to share concerns/complaints about WSB. (A lot of people stopped by to say nice things, which we appreciate, but we don’t solicit. We don’t write about ourselves, because WSB isn’t about us, even in this age of personality where other journalists insist on getting personal.) Patrick and I aren’t scary people, so far as we’ve been told. We’re a couple of introverts, well into middle age, and pretty approachable. You can also find one of us at as many community meetings as we can possibly get to; the season is starting up again. Or just go to your local community meeting, even if you don’t care to take a second to chat about WSB. Would love to see more people at them all.

If you’ll excuse me, I have to go look for lettuce at the Farmers’ Market before it closes in an hour … and then there are more stories to write. About the community. Which I hope you will be here to read. And maybe even comment on!

-Tracy

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[Spring Chicken]

It’s possible that individual has psychological issues and can’t help the behavior. Signs of which include needing to insert personal details about themselves into every post on any subject, fear of rare incurable diseases, escalating emotional distress whenever someone disagrees with them, etc. I know a few people like that in real life so I try to be patient and kind, ignore them but with compassion as any sick person. Internet blogs are dominated by lonely people lacking social skills with too much time on their hands. Please don’t be intimidated and don’t assume the majority of readers agree with that person when most are probably just too busy to log in and respond.

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[pattilea]

Certain posters (two whose names start with a J) are modern day electronic bullies, as their posts here and elsewhere are evidence of that behavior.

OMG I so agree!! Like my mother always said if you cant say something nice don’t say anything at all!

TR several months or so ago you deleted a comment I made about a sponsor “that was true” Because the sponsor threatened to leave, and did so.

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[JoB]

Please correct me if i am wrong..

but i think the rules here state that you can discuss ideas

but that character assassination is out of line.

i kinda think my character is being assassinated when i am called a electronic bully

and i don’t even know how to respond to this one

“It’s possible that individual has psychological issues and can’t help the behavior. Signs of which include needing to insert personal details about themselves into every post on any subject, fear of rare incurable diseases, escalating emotional distress whenever someone disagrees with them, etc. I know a few people like that in real life so I try to be patient and kind, ignore them but with compassion as any sick person. Internet blogs are dominated by lonely people lacking social skills with too much time on their hands. Please don’t be intimidated and don’t assume the majority of readers agree with that person when most are probably just too busy to log in and respond.”

was Spring Chicken talking about me?

i may sometimes think some of the ideas people post here are pure unadulterated crap..

but i would never say anything even vaguely resembling that comment about them .. even in private.

it’s probably a good thing i don’t attend church here if this is what the “good” people find worthy of discussion there.

after all of this time, this level of meanness certainly shouldn’t surprise me… but it does.

and to be perfectly honest… even though i know full well that anyone making those kinds of comments definately doesn’t know me… it still hurts.

especially since any reader who doesn’t like what i have to say can simply skip over my posts without reading them… or better yet hit the ignore button and never even know i am there.

it’s all in their control…

and i’m the bully?

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[mark47n]

Go JoB!

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[tanyar23]

I was going to post some humorous snarkiness. But, I feared it would be unappreciated. I kind of want to change my name to Janyar23 now though.

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[JoB]

tanyar23

my sense of humor is still intact

but i can’t vouch for anyone else’s ;)

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[Infrequent Commenter]

Spring Chicken, I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. I will think of it from that perspective in future reading..

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[Author]

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