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July 26, 2013 at 3:05 pm #794504
WFMemberkgdlg #44 requiring a vasectomy would be a little less drastic than cutting the whole thing off.
FullTilt #47 i agree the vast majority of teachers are decent; but there are bad apples (crappy teachers) and they need to be removed.
job #49 why would a married couple in their late 20’s/early 30’s with jobs be investigated? the issue is teenage pregnancy, not married adults, a 15 year old with no job no education is the start of the vicious cycle. and throwing more money at it does not solve the problem, it only feeds the cycle and employment of social workers.
do i know the answers NO. but it is time people think outside the box. the current system does not work.
July 26, 2013 at 3:09 pm #794505
kgdlgParticipantHow complicated it really is
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/sports/lady-jaguars-thats-as-bad-as-it-gets.html?hp
July 26, 2013 at 4:09 pm #794506
dobroParticipantJuly 26, 2013 at 4:30 pm #794507
elikapekaParticipantkldg, that’s a great article. Unfortunately, it’s probably too long for the people that need to read it and understand the complexities of life.
Here’s another interesting take – http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/07/popularity-luck-and-herding.
And Walker and Full Tilt, you are my new heroes.
July 26, 2013 at 4:57 pm #794508
WFMemberdobro the one thing i can see is that the current system does not work and throwing more money at it is not the answer.
elikapeka – interesting article.
July 26, 2013 at 5:33 pm #794509
dobroParticipant“do i know the answers NO.”
“one thing i can see is that the current system does not work and throwing more money at it is not the answer.”
So you don’t know the answers, but you know what are not the answers. Hmmmm…
How do you converse with people who write two sentences like this back to back and think they’re making sense?
July 26, 2013 at 5:46 pm #794510
F16CrewChiefMemberThe OP was about teen pregnancy correct?
There are so many variables in this, it’s not going to be solved by ignoring it. Of course, of all those teen pregnancies shown in the OP’s link, how many are doing just fine raising their kids, and how many are ending up on “16 and Pregnant”?
“16 and Pregnant” leads me to my concern of media. I’m not talking about FOX News or MSNBC, but rather entertainment media. Our youth are exposed to far more sexual media than ever before. Girls Gone Wild, Bachelor/ette, Temptation Island, and so on. Music videos are not much better either. I’m no psychologist, but I truly think our culture has led to the higher number of young pregnancies. Our children are being exposed to sex at a far younger age and that exposure is not of the educational type, it’s of the “it’s cool, everyone is doing it” type. As a parent of three, two teens, I have to make sure I counter educate them on all that is thrown in their face from our “Girls Gone Wild” culture. My wife and I try and prevent too much exposure to all that reality t.v. junk, internet and other stuff. But we’re not naive, we know they get hit with our culture from many other people. So we do our best to communicate with our kids the realities of this world.
As for the government involvement, it’s not the government promoting sex by making birth control more available, it’s our own culture promoting sex. It’s our fault and the government is just trying to sustain our bad habits the only way they know how in my opinion.
Freedom comes with costs. Our culture nowadays is a bunch of horn-dogs that want as much T&A on t.v. as possible and our kids get to grow up in our wake. In the end, preventative teen pregnancy is probably best combated at home with the parent(s) and having the government provide options to those parents and teens is just a tool to help prevent, not enable. Turn off your t.v.’s and take five minutes to say “hi” to your kids.
July 26, 2013 at 5:53 pm #794511
WFMemberdobro – it is not rocket science to ascertain the existing system does not work.
f16firecrew well said!
July 26, 2013 at 5:58 pm #794512
dobroParticipant“it is not rocket science to ascertain the existing system does not work.”
True, but some science is involved in actually solving problems, rather than bloviating about gov’t dictating reproductive choices. Whining about the problem while admitting you have no answers is…is…well, I guess that’s what internet forums are all about, isn’t it?
July 26, 2013 at 6:00 pm #794513
WalkerParticipantActually teen pregnancy at an all time low. If you want it lower, try fixing this problem and teen pregnancy will follow.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp
July 26, 2013 at 6:09 pm #794514
F16CrewChiefMemberWalker, I do agree with you on your #60 comment. Education is huge benefit in combating many things wrong with our society for sure. As for teen pregnancy, on top of parenting and education, I could add simply providing youth better after school programs to help keep them from getting bored and keep them outta some basement making out with their boy/girlfriend. My wife and I mandate our three kids have at least one extra curricular activity they take part in. Whether it’s sports, working or music, whatever, just something to keep them busy. But yes, it’s sad to see how little our taxes go to education.
July 26, 2013 at 6:24 pm #794515
datamuseParticipantActually, F16CrewChief, I don’t think that’s what these data show. What these data show is the pregnancy rate–nothing more, nothing less.
What I’d like to see is a comparison between rates of sexual *activity* among teens in different countries. Because, you see, if they’re about the same, but the rate of pregnancy in the U.S. is so much higher…well, that might still be a cultural problem, but I don’t think it’s the one you’re proposing.
For instance, this study shows comparable or even significantly higher teen sexual activity rates in Sweden, France, Canada, and Great Britain, but teen pregnancy rates are lower. MUCH lower. Perhaps the study discussed on this page concerning teen contraceptive use explains why: compare 67 percent of sexually active teen girls in the Netherlands using oral contraceptives, compared to only 20.5 in the U.S.
I don’t know how much the problem is cultural encouragement of sex, though U.S. teens are sexually active earlier on average than their counterparts in other countries, so you might have something there. However, the advertising and other media I’ve seen in Europe didn’t strike me as much different from here, though admittedly I haven’t spent THAT much time there. What IS different is the bizarre close-mindedness the U.S. generally has toward sex education, which frankly I do not understand at all. (As with so much else, the Dutch in particular seem to me to be getting it right.)
July 26, 2013 at 7:02 pm #794516
F16CrewChiefMemberdatamuse, you’re right. The stats in the OP’s link showed nothing more than a lot of American teen pregnancies compared to smaller countries and more than likely very different youth ratios than Americans. Plus, most of those countries probably don’t have the greatest census. That stat painfully lacks a lot of information concerning the OP.
I think if we really want to dive into the close-mindedness of Americans towards sex education and contraceptives, we’d end up back on that Church and State post…LOL. I don’t wanna go there:-)
As for my culture observations, it’s just my over-analytical opinion of teen pregnancy. In some ways, it seems some youth view some of those reality shows and things as repulsive. So there may even be a counter-culture developing? I don’t know for sure. But like you and many others have stated, education is sooooooo important in my opinion too. James Madison knew what he was doing when trying to make education more available for Americans. We should never lose sight of his vision.
July 26, 2013 at 7:21 pm #794517
kgdlgParticipantAt least watch the video then.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/26/sports/hannahs-story-documentary.html
July 26, 2013 at 8:41 pm #794518
Ms. SparklesParticipantFunkietoo & Jan S. –
The human issue as framed by the OP was how to stop the welfare cycle – he tied it to teen pregnancy, but I’m expanding the “problem” to all pregnancies the parent(s) are unprepared to support. I KNOW that my idea is politically impossible, it’s quite fascist but it would solve the problem of how to cut people off of welfare without leaving children to starve in the streets.
JanS- Yes I’m describing orphanages…that are voluntary, NO ONE would decide who lives at school other than the children themselves. If there is no food at home and no way to do laundry, eat and clean yourself at school as you need- return to your parents when they can support you, stay at school when they can’t. The resources are available at school 24/7 – that’s all I’m proposing.
The OP implies a frustration with a welfare system the rewards people for having children they are ill prepared to care for; I propose a solution that leaves the adults to their own devices but does not punish the children for being born to people who can’t get their lives together. Pretty much like an expanded version of Carroll Academy- which is providing Hannah the only stability in her life.
July 26, 2013 at 10:14 pm #794519
F16CrewChiefMemberI’m curious how anyone is ever truly PREPARED to support a child? I have three and I had my first was when I was 18. We had to use WIC, nothing more than that fortunately. I joined the Air Force and pressed on. Should I have got killed in Iraq or Afghanistan, I guarantee my wife would of had to use some kind of social service to carry on. Point is Ms. Sparkles, life does not give a rats arse whether you are financially prepared to have a child or not. You can be financially secure all you want, but when nature comes knocking and has a doctor tell you your child has a brain tumor and you or your spouses work just cut your medical benefits, your well prepared life just got a dose of REAL LIFE!
July 26, 2013 at 10:31 pm #794520
JoBParticipantWF
what is good for the goose is good for the gander..
or in this case..
what you wish to have enforced for other parents is also good for you.
if you are not willing to live by a rule
you really shouldn’t propose it.
July 26, 2013 at 10:36 pm #794521
JoBParticipantMs Sparkles..
once upon a time here in America our schools had before school programs, after school programs, evening programs and counselors who worked with teachers to identify anyone with cleanliness and hunger issues and created a program geared to the student’s needs.
once upon a time in America, that worked.
July 26, 2013 at 10:37 pm #794522
Ms. SparklesParticipantF16 – the OP, to which I was responding, is talking about breaking a cycle of welfare dependent families, not doing away with charity care required by all hospitals – which is how your child with a brain tumor would be cared for if you’re without health benefits.
But – to address your scenario in my fictitious solution/ system – the medical bill for the brain tumor would be covered by the socialized medicine/ medicade that ALL children would be covered by in my plan.
You are PREPARED to support a child when you’ve found stability in your own life; the stability itself maybe upended, but you’ve proven you have the life skills to re-create stability as needed.
I believe in social services – I just agree with the OP that our delivery method is….ineffective. Giving emotionally immature people with no financial common sense a ebt card and a check twice a month and hoping they’ll figure the rest out is unrealistic. I believe that if we as a society agree we’re not letting people “fall through the cracks” then we need to be much more involved in the lives of the beneficiaries of those services; to the point where the ACLU would complain that we’re infringing on personal liberties. But if you want help from society, then that help comes with strings.
July 26, 2013 at 11:01 pm #794523
F16CrewChiefMemberMs. Sparkles, you know it is almost impossible to prove that eliminating or setting stronger welfare criteria will reduce teens having children?
But California did run some great numbers on their state teen pregnancy issue.
“Although the majority of welfare recipients began their families as teen mothers, only 5% of mothers receiving public assistance are teens, and just 1% are under age 18. (Berglas, N., Brindis, C., and Cohen, J., p. 25)”
Another very sad stat that no one here has brought up yet was this, again from California’s stats:
“An estimated 50% to 60% of parenting teens have been sexually abused, a figure twice the national rate for never-pregnant teens. (Berglas, N., Brindis, C., and Cohen, J., p. 16)”
There are a LOT of disturbing numbers in California’s research though. Really sad.
July 26, 2013 at 11:01 pm #794524
FullTiltParticipantSo here is where we DO need to throw money at the schools- plain and simple more money.
When I taught high school we often discussed our ideal school, and in many ways it was what Ms. Sparkles described, with the revision she added about it being totally voluntary. But in real life, our school:
– shared a nurse with several other schools, so she was on campus one hour a week
– shared a school counselor who spent the majority of her time dealing with the WASL or HSPE or whatever the hell they are calling it these days
– occasionally got a mental health counselor when an outside organization managed to get funding for drug and alcohol evaluations (most of the counselors were open to discussing anything the kids needed)
– offered toiletries and clean clothes when staff gathered stuff and quietly gave it out
More money would help to at least hire the staff to help students. The district had I think 2 social workers and ONE truancy specialist. One. For the entire district.
We had a kid sleep in a tree on campus one night because her parents kicked her out. She was 18 but had the mental abilities of maybe a 10 year old. The only shelter we could find for her was in the U District. She couldn’t commute to school from that far away, dropped out, and last time I saw her was very proud of the matress she had in the alley behind Tully’s. Maybe we could throw enough money to get some bus passes?
There is plenty of space between providing services with some requirements and violating one’s personal freedom.
And we aren’t letting people “fall” through the cracks. We are shoving them in and stepping on their fingers when they try to crawl out.
Thanks folks for your nice comments. I am the product of a very well funded public education system :)
July 26, 2013 at 11:18 pm #794525
kgdlgParticipantPeople realize there is a 5 year liftime cap in TANF now right? That would be welfare. I worked with a single mom, 22 yrs old, 4 kids, two if them special needs a couple of years ago. She was about to run out of TANF for good, lifetime cap by 22. She was everything you speak of here, young and unprepared and very very poor although she did have a GED.
She was entirely supported month to month by church and family but basically, how was she going to get a job with 4 kids (father was in jail so no child support)?
This is life! It is messy and terrible and yes. These poor kids. But she loved them as best she could and was a good person, I felt.
We don’t need to punish these women, we need to support them to become better parents. And that will take resources. Taking the kids away would have traumatized them far more than helped.
July 27, 2013 at 1:03 am #794526
JoBParticipantkgdlg
“We don’t need to punish these women, we need to support them to become better parents.”
you hit the nail on the head. punishing the mothers doesn’t improve the situation for anyone… not the mother, the father, the extended family or the kids.
July 27, 2013 at 1:45 am #794527
WFMemberno job the situation described by kgdlg is exactly what is wrong with the system, why 4 – kids when she had no resources. the state enabled her and this is exactly the point i have tried to make. the cycle needs to stop and removing the baby from a person that has no resources to take care of the child is a way to break the cycle!
many couples want to adopt babies and end up going abroad to adopt; and the state (taxpayers) pay for welfare that continues the cycle of poverty.
July 27, 2013 at 1:51 am #794528
WFMemberwhy are 2 of the kids special needs, was the mom taking illegal drugs while pregnant?
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