43 Replies to "PROTESTS: What's ahead in West Seattle Friday, Saturday, Monday; sign-making too"

• To old to join June 4, 2020 (7:07 pm)

  For all the young people who’d like to see changes in the way the police operate, perhaps you should join the SPD and makes the changes from within. A fresh, new perspective could really make a difference. Become the community advocates for police accountability. Keep us informed on the bad policies and call out the cops who fail to protect the community.  You can be the change that you are demanding. 

  • pilsner June 4, 2020 (8:30 pm)

    ^^^ Comment of the year^^^

  • If only June 4, 2020 (8:31 pm)

    If only it worked that way. Whistleblowers do exist, but those individuals are swept out service and basically lose their careers to try to put bad policy on blast.

  • John June 4, 2020 (8:42 pm)

    Is that how it works? They just need some new hires to show them there’s a better way? Or it more likely could be something more systemic and entrenched, to burrow a more militaristic word.

    • WW Resident June 4, 2020 (11:47 pm)

      So what you’re implying is that it’s so systemic that even the “good” people will end up committing police brutality willy nilly as you obviously accuse the police now of? They just won’t be able to help themselves because it is so systemic? Really? 

      • Brian June 5, 2020 (9:16 am)

        If they aren’t pressured to commit violence against citizens they will be pressured not to say anything when they see it happen. If they are a know reporter of misconduct they will be isolated and bullied until they quit. 

        • BLM June 5, 2020 (12:39 pm)

          My goodness people. Remember Ghandi’s teaching: Be the change that you what to see. Too old to join is not suggesting a bad solution, but everyone that has replied is only seeing the negative. When I was a kid I thought many of my teachers were not very good, so I decided to become a teacher to invoke some change in education. Get fired up and be ready to lead. It can be leading the police force into a better direction or some other community organizing. 

        • heartless June 5, 2020 (2:03 pm)

          BLM:  I acknowledge that Too Old is suggesting ways to help, and that the intent is good–perhaps I should have acknowledged that more in my posts.

          But when it is suggested that “Changing the system from within is the way things get done,” I feel it’s both appropriate–even necessary–to disagree.  I tried to do that respectfully and with reasoned arguments, but to be honest I do view it as, well, as you said, a bad solution.

          The intent, I’m sure, was earnest and good, but the suggestion belies a fundamental misunderstanding of just how entrenched the problems are.

      • heartless June 5, 2020 (1:44 pm)

        WW Resident: Yes.  I can’t speak for others, but that is indeed what I am saying.

        People forever underestimate the power of the situation; and they forever overestimate how true to themselves they will be.

        Think of the studies of Solomon Asch, an early social psychologist: in his most famous study he simply asked people to look at three lines of varying length and say which line was the longest.  This was a trivially easy task.  But in some conditions he had people in on the experiment answer first, and answer incorrectly.

        So picture this: you’re sitting there with a group of people, all you have to do is say which line is longest.  You’re waiting your turn, you know perfectly well which line is longest.  The first person says a wrong answer.  Says a line that is CLEARLY shorter is the longest one.  You think that’s weird.  The next person says the same thing.  You chuckle uncomfortably.  The third person also claims a short line is the longest.  You start to feel really uncomfortable.  This continues, everyone keeps a straight face and says the shorter line is longer.  It gets to your turn, and what do you do?  You conform.  You agree with the group.

        Perhaps most interesting is that nobody thinks they will succumb to these sorts of pressures–but they do.  Over and over again they do.

        So yes, WW Resident, I can assure you, with every fiber of my being, that even the good ones will do bad things.  

    • Grace June 6, 2020 (10:54 am)

      Hi, I dont want to offer a personal opinion here, but there was a real experiment done that shows that when people are put in places of authority and the issue is systemic, yes good people absolutely do awful things. Please read about the Stanford prison experiment, I’ve attached the link to the official website, but it is easily able to be googled if you want a few sources. It ended much earlier than they planned due to how the “guards” treated the “prisoners” and the psychological effects it was taking on these young men. https://www.prisonexp.org/

  • The King June 4, 2020 (9:09 pm)

    To see young people interested in making that change from within is a good idea, they should also be urged to look into the pros and cons of becoming a Seattle police officer. Young officers have recently been leaving the force at an alarming high rate, for several reasons. The office of police accountability scrutinizes everything they do, the council doesn’t back them, imagine being called a murderer by Sawant, or seeing the person you arrested yesterday for a serious crime walking the streets. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not Seattle has become a violent city, I’ve seen the changes since the 70’s and right now has to be an all time low for safety. Maybe an infusion of young talented officers would help as they are short handed but I feel the officers we have in this city are doing the best with what they have been given. 

    • Jon Wright June 5, 2020 (10:10 am)

      That was an impressive collection of alarmist hyperbole, full of rhetoric and anecdotes. That we are supposedly in the midst of “an all time low for safety” is not borne out by data.

  • DRG June 4, 2020 (9:20 pm)

    I wish that worked. With everything officers have done around the country the past week that’s been caught on video, I think more folks than ever before are wondering about what goes on when the cameras are off. Tonight’s video of the Buffalo, NY officers and the 75-year-old man certainly isn’t helping. Something needs to change, and unfortunately it’s going to take more than just a few new hires.

  • heartless June 4, 2020 (9:25 pm)

    Of course the bigger issue is with the system itself–something an individual recruit has zero chance of changing. 

    I read a good interview of Paul Butler (lawyer/prosecutor/author) recently where he talks about this very idea of what happens when “good” folks join up to try to make changes from within.  Turns out the system is stronger than any one person, and more often than not rather than becoming an advocate and changing the department for the better, the individual gets swamped by peer pressure and the systems already in place and that’s where it ends. 

    Even the strongest and most morally upright individuals are still only people, and they will all too often buckle in the face of authority and peer pressure.  oh–found a link–especially the last 1/3 is relevant I think:
    https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/6/2/21276799/george-floyd-protest-criminal-justice-paul-butler

    • To old to join June 4, 2020 (11:08 pm)

      Them what’s the point of asking for change? The protests won’t make a difference if people continue to have am attitude that’s so defeatist. And im not talking about a few new recruits immediately changing the system, im talking long term solutions. These kids that join now will be the leaders of the future.  If people want change they need to be willing to be part of the solution, not just demand someone else do it. Sure, these protests will bring attention to the problem, but it’s a short term answer. People need to br willing to make a commitment to be the change they want. Facebook posts and yelling at cops is not a revolution.  Changing the system from within is the way things get done. 

      • DH June 5, 2020 (7:30 am)

        The system does not change from within. As someone that currently works in the system I have worked to try to make that change with other like minded coworkers. It doesn’t work. The most that can be accomplished is some tweaking around the edges. I’ve watched several coworkers leave from the intractability of the system. If the protesters want to change the system they have to do it by putting pressure from the outside. Did the No Youth Jail people stop the center? No. Did they get the system to make some meaningful changes? Yes, by the outside pressure.  Even with those changes more is needed. Audre Lourde said it best “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.”

      • heartless June 5, 2020 (8:42 am)

        hm.  Let me try again.

        First, I think it’s important to note that, by and large, those people who join the police force are not more aggressive or racist than people who choose other professions.  It’s NOT that bad people are going in and becoming bad cops.

        Instead it’s that once someone becomes a cop forces beyond that individual’s control exert influence–and these are the systems that allow, and even encourage, aggression and racism and abuses of power.

        When you suggest idealistic and good people become cops, rise through the ranks and “be the leaders of the future” you don’t understand that they will either hold onto their ideals and be kicked from the department or they will begin to act like your average cop–because the power of the situation, the powers of authority and peer pressure, are simply that strong.

      • Brian June 5, 2020 (10:12 am)

        The goal is to take away a bunch of funding from the police. We will get it done and use that money for something useful. 

  • Curious June 4, 2020 (9:50 pm)

    I like where you’re coming from. It would be great to have more SPD officers who actually live and/or grew up in the community they police, so they personally – or at least by association – know the citizens. Relate to them. To us. That said, as others have mentioned, it will take a very strong and principled young person to join the current force and not be pressured into the same tactics we’ve been seeing. But I want to be optimistic and think it could happen. 

  • Brian June 5, 2020 (9:14 am)

    This is flawed advice that presumes change from within is even possible. Cop culture disallows the kind of change you’re talking about and officers have died trying to change it.They need to be severely defunded with that money redirected to social services for underprivileged communities. 

    • wscommuter June 5, 2020 (1:06 pm)

      Your comment is ridiculous.  Defunding police departments is one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard.  Do you think having fewer police will make things better?  Or just paying them less?   Where do we cut?  Fewer homicide detectives?  Sex crimes?  Stolen cars?  Burglaries?   Do we not enforce traffic laws or street assaults?   Please do explain that defunding thing you think is so great.  As it is now, try calling the police for a non-life threatening crime – response times are delayed significantly.  We are currently unable to police many property crimes adequately … and by the way, most of those crimes tend to occur in lower-income neighborhoods where the victims are all too often persons of color.  Is your point that those people should have less protection from crime?   The idea of defunding police (fortunately which will not happen precisely because it is so stupid) is a knee-jerk idea that withers upon serious scrutiny.  Many commenters above in this thread have it right – police culture has to change and that change has to come from pressure from without – God bless those who are protesting peacefully for changes and we all have an obligation to demand change and accountability for police abuses – and from within – by hiring more cops who live in the communities they police, especially persons of color.  Change won’t happen overnight and we will never get perfection – but it can happen and police behavior can improve.  In the meantime, spare us from the dumb …

      • zark00 June 5, 2020 (5:28 pm)

        You’re misunderstanding what ‘de-funding the police’ means – it has nothing to do with less officers on the street.  It’s about reducing the overall budget of the police department so that the money they do have goes to officers and not to military equipment.We spend $10M on the ‘Chief of Police’ office – I have no idea what that means either.The Chief of Police only makes $270k a year.  We spend $70M a year on “leadership and administration” and $13M on ‘Criminal Investigations’.We spent $4M on the Office of Police Accountability and $0 on School Zone Cameras (funding to enforce those was rejected in the 2020 budget).$17M in “Patrol Operations” and $58M on “Special Operations”Dunno about you, but $58M for SWAT and $17M for officers on patrol – that seems like an out-of-whack budget to me.I don’t know if SPD has tanks and humvees, LAPD sure do, and I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that Police departments don’t need tanks, ever, for any reason. If reducing their budget so they can’t afford tanks keeps them from getting tanks – that’d be a good thing.SPD’s motto is ‘Service, Pride, Dedication’ not ‘Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of the women.’

  • Jennifer Hall June 8, 2020 (3:56 pm)

    You’re never too old to join. Lots of Seattle Police Department jobs have no upper age limit for applying. 

• Bradley June 5, 2020 (12:08 am)

  Seattle has a TREMENDOUS police department that the majority of Seattle residents do NOT deserve. Good officers have been leaving for departments in municipalities surrounding Seattle for several years now. They are appreciated in Burien, Shoreline, Bellevue, Kirkland, Medina, etc. Chief Best threw her officers under the bus today, which will accelerate this evacuation. These surrounding departments should refuse to lend their officers to assist SPD if Seattle actually cuts the police budget more than any other city agencies.Bellevue looting could have been prevented had dozens of their officers not been in downtown Seattle Sunday afternoon. It’s time for Seattle residents to hear operators say “all officers are on other calls” when they call 911 for violent crimes in-progress.

  • heartless June 5, 2020 (7:27 pm)

    oh be quiet, nobody is asking for fewer cops so your post is entirely irrelevant.

• Jonah June 5, 2020 (6:16 am)

  curious. The TRUTH is that SPD really does want new hires of ALL races and backgrounds. Their problem is that they can’t force people to join. They can only hire people that have applied. And to those that want SPD defunded. People will then fend for themselves. How does that make things better?? 

• David Kerlick June 5, 2020 (7:08 am)

  Leadership is required. Top down as well as bottom up. Professional standards! Police unions that aren’t Trump cells! We used to have a leader in the Federal Government, and we can again. https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/03/george-floyd-barack-obama-hosts-town-hall-police-reforms-after-death/3135128001/

• Will S. June 5, 2020 (12:26 pm)

  Too Old to Join chimes in with the perfect old person’s comment: It’s wrong for young people to complain about police brutality because it’s their responsibility to join the police department and dedicate their entire future lives to solving problems that old people failed to acknowledge, let alone solve.

  Anyway, if there were such a thing as civilian control of the police, then civilian leaders would be able to change the police department without personally becoming sworn officers. Too many political leaders have for too long been captive to police views, indulging police with bigger forces, more military toys, and maximum deference as the go-to policy prescription for the problems of crime, disorder, homelessness, mental illness, addiction, poverty and even race relations. I think it’s healthy and overdue that civilians of all ages are now insisting on a different approach.

  It’s also revealing to see which grown-up politicians are most shocked by, and most unprepared for, this turn of events. There has been a remarkable degree of hesitation to say things like ‘Please stop killing, incarcerating and tear gassing my constituents.’ And particularly on the part of the mayor, there’s been a reflexive skepticism of accounts of well-documented police abuses–as if we really need to carefully investigate each allegation of police misconduct, but we can confidently say without evidence that the bad acts are being perpetrated by such bogeymen as anarchists, antifa and outside agitators.

  The good news is that we can do better. And Too Old to Join is right about this: the people who have been making the mistakes that shaped the world now need to yield to people who see more clearly.

  • ttt June 5, 2020 (12:41 pm)

    He never said it was wrong to chime in. He just said to change the system from within.

  • Too Old to Join June 5, 2020 (3:42 pm)

    Will S, – typical young person comment, assume you know everything and dismiss anyone’s ideas that are over 40. Good luck with changing the world. By the way, I said none of what you attributed to me, I was offering an idea that maybe you didn’t think of, but it seems you already thought of everything. Sorry I couldn’t be of any help.

    • Will S. June 5, 2020 (4:25 pm)

      I don’t want any young people to be blamed for the things that I wrote. I am 39.

    • Be the change June 5, 2020 (11:26 pm)

      I appreciate your thought and encouragement for young people to be the change they wish to see. It’s not bad advice, I generally agree with that thinking.

      When it comes to this issue, perhaps both perspectives here are right. Sometimes the truth is in the middle.

      Some turnover and fresh recruits, who are passionate about racial justice, would probably be good. However, there are deep systemic issues that need outside pressure and need to begin to change NOW.

      The police are meant to serve and protect the entire community, and they should be held accountable to that.

• Defund June 5, 2020 (1:28 pm)

  More cops is not the answer to police brutality.

• Meredith June 5, 2020 (1:36 pm)

  Does anyone know which people or organization is affiliated with the 1pm Saturday march event? Thanks!

  • Jasmine June 5, 2020 (8:53 pm)

    I am one of the organizers of the march. Please check out the FB event https://facebook.com/events/s/march-for-black-lives-anytime-/957294041396059/?ti=asAnd message me directly if you have any questions. 

• Defunnnnd June 5, 2020 (4:37 pm)

  Glad to see so many people disagree with “Too Old’s” comment.Respect the young people who don’t think “changing something from within” is realistic or a good use of their time.I know the sentiment that there are “no good cops” upsets many because their dad was a cop, or their friend or aunt or blah blah blah. But you should read into WHY that thinking exists. 

• Tippie June 5, 2020 (6:30 pm)

  I originally lived in an area that had a crisis intervention team for people in mental heath crisis that didn’t involve the police at all. It was sent out from a local hospital system but had a relationship with local government. It meant that armed officers were not called into mental health crisis situations unless someone was armed. In many other places, the cops are called in those situations and some have killed the mentally ill person even if they were unarmed.When people say “defund the police” they’re saying get rid of the military grade hardware and use it for social services that can help with mental health care, domestic violence shelters, rehab services etc etc. So that there is more social support that prevents issues before the person ever winds up getting arrested. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound less of police officer pinning your neck until you slowly suffocate. …Whoops, I meant “cure.” Worth a pound of cure. The reason the system doesn’t work this way, where police are meant to be the absolute last resort and problems are addressed before the person winds up dysfunctional enough to get arrested is because the prison system uses slave labor conditions to act as production lines for various industries. This isn’t even just the private prisons, the government run prisons have contracts to produce things for pennies as well. The system is geared towards the prison system making profits and so they don’t want to have social programs that prevent people from being arrested. So the money goes to the police and their military grade equipment and they don’t care if it cultivates a violent atmosphere because the end result is wanting butts in cells. The reason young people can’t change the system within in because of how much money is ultimately behind it. The police serve the prisons and that is a billion dollar industry that won’t be changed easily without actual laws and political pressure. People that want to change these systems get fired if they try to do it internally, but sometimes external pressure can do it. Even that sometimes is impossible because many judges are corrupt and some have been arrested for taking bribes from the for profit prisons to sentence more people in jail. There was one in Pennsylvania that sent thousands of kids to juvie, often on very minor crimes (some were ridiculous they even got charged at all sometimes). The judge made millions in bribes before they were caught. External pressure can sometimes work though. On a local level, businesses don’t want to be closed by 1pm or have to board up their windows. They don’t want to have roads closed by protesters or crowds disrupting normal street traffic that affect their bottom line. Especially after being hit so hard by Covid. By the time all the businesses fully open again, they will want these protesters long gone.That creates economic pressure city governments have to worry about, which can lead to top-down “get your house in better order” changes for the police departments or city governments considering where their funding goes. The more fuss, the better the odds of external change. Really, when it’s the local government that does the police budget, you want to pressure the local government from the inside or outside, not the police from the inside.

  • heartless June 5, 2020 (9:23 pm)

    Yep, tell it like it is.

    One thing I’d like to add is that the majority of police ALSO really want separate mental health and community forces that are completely separate from the cops.  Back in 2016 Chief Brown of the Dallas Police was talking about how much those social services/mental health teams were needed, pointing out that the police just do too much. 

    Cops should not be the go-to for most of the mental health and social service calls they get: They aren’t trained for it, they’re damn awful at it, and they don’t want to do it, so hell yes take some money away from their armored tank fund and get more social services on the streets.

• Be the change June 5, 2020 (11:42 pm)

  There is actually a movement that is proposing a police-free future…

  https://www.mpd150.com/wp-content/themes/mpd150/assets/faq_zine.pdf

• Nate June 5, 2020 (11:45 pm)

  I think this comment thread has derailed from a lot of messages of protests across the country. This is about racism. We protest because “Black Lives Matter”. We protest because George Floyd’s life mattered, and Manuel Ellis’ life mattered when he said “I can’t breathe” then died while under restraint of a police officer. We protest because we demand change, and some white people are going to have to be a bit more uncomfortable before we can truly change our nation for the better. I’m uncomfortable and white, but I’m worlds more comfortable than any person of color in this nation. “Every day…” If arming police forces with empathy instead of violence means defunding them, then I’m all for it. Instead of speaking against change, why don’t you start proposing solutions to the problem at hand: nationwide institutionalized racism. “No justice, no peace.”

  • LoveyLove June 6, 2020 (1:37 am)

    Thanks for keeping the focus where it needs to be. White supremacy is the problem and police brutality is just one manifestation in the vastness of racism and injustice towards Black people and POC in our country (and around the world for that matter). The conversation must start and end with us white folks to eradicate white supremacy. It’s our problem. We continue to uphold the oppressive and racist systems and ways of being that our ancestors created so it’s our responsibility to fix it. Reading suggestions for white people as a place to start: The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander, Me And White Supremacy by Layla F. Saad, and So You Want To Talk About Race by Ijeoma Olou a local Seattle hero. I’m so proud of our youth. Keep it up. I’m with you all the way and will continue to protest along side you. 

  • Be the change June 6, 2020 (8:10 am)

    ‘…arming police forces with empathy instead of violence…’

    Imagine…

• mpm June 10, 2020 (12:07 pm)

  I don’t foresee a change until we either do away with or severely curtail the Police Union. Sure, other public sector employees have unions, but they’re not killing people.,

Sorry, comment time is over.