51 Replies to "Bicycle safety: Citywide concerns, and a West Seattle crash"

• JanS September 12, 2011 (10:43 pm)

  interesting in that while the city says it doesn’t have enough funds to do some of the roadwork needed in this city, including Beach Drive, they feel that it’s OK, as announced today, to spend at least $150,000 on yet another study on the parking habits of people here. They just, not too long ago, did a study, and changed a lot of parking rules and fees, and now they want to do another? Priorities, priorities…

• Jasperblu September 12, 2011 (10:45 pm)

  I can’t understand why anyone would ever ride a bike on Beach Drive. It’s bad enough to try & manuever it in a car, let alone on a bike (or even as a pedestrian).
  .
  Trying to get around cyclists who *do* risk sharing that road with cars is an exercise in patience, at the least. Oh my goodness, the road rage exchanges I’ve witnessed between drivers and cyclists along the entire stretch (from Lowman to Alki), are downright murderous at times.
  .
  It certainly shouldn’t be included in any pamphlet or map as a “safe” bike route. I don’t even think bike crazed Mayor McSchwinn would feel comfy riding along Beach Drive. Not if he valued his life and limb anyway.
  .
  The road needs fixing, absolutely. But I’m not sure that it will ever be a safe place to ride a bike, given how narrow it is, and how prone it is to slides, geological movement, speeding cars, people trying to enter/exit their driveways, and such. Maybe the wiser thing would just be to ban bikes on Beach Drive. At least from Lowman to north of the slide area. Just a thought. Though I’m sure the Mayor & his fellow biking buddies will disagree… Sigh.

• GRG September 12, 2011 (11:11 pm)

  And they want us to approve another $60 car tab fee, and only a pittance is going to street repair. Hell no! I ride this stretch on my motorcycle a lot and it’s gotten to the point I’m unsafe on that as well, and no way would I ride my bike, even if it is a mountain bike used to being bounced about and with wide tires. This city needs to get its act together and fix the streets pronto! I write for a motorcycle magazine, and my column this month was on just that topic…and the picture we used to illustrate this month’s is a bike “sharrow” from that stretch of beach drive — that is in the middle of a chuckhole. http://grgardner.livejournal.com/53101.html

• JN September 12, 2011 (11:22 pm)

  Well, how about we ban cars from this area, since they are causing such a problem by speeding, entering/exiting their driveways without looking (I’ve been almost hit about 4 times along this area while running because the residents here apparently consider the public sidewalk their own personal purview). Face it people, the danger on our roadways comes from cars, nothing else.

• bebecat September 12, 2011 (11:32 pm)

  I lived on Beach Dr. for 10 yrs. I worked Tue-Sat and coming home from work on Sat was difficult in the summer. #1 I was very tired from working all week and to deal with bicyclists was not good. #2 That is a slide area and the roads are never good. Even when fixed they don’t hold. I know it is scenic but it is dangerous for all involved.

• bolo September 12, 2011 (11:38 pm)

  My sympathies to a fellow injured cyclist. I feel bad every time I see one of these reports.

  I ride Beach Drive frequently. Parts of it are not easy; they are rough, dangerous, and uncomfortable. Yet other parts are beautiful beyond compare; smooth riding, stimulating views, with breathtaking scenery. When cycling, you really have to know WHERE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE ROAD, where it is in bad shape. Even then, darkness and rain hide some danger spots. Most drivers are courteous and patient with cyclists in these areas.

  I would be unhappy to find out some “do-gooder” fought to ban bikes on Beach Drive, for my “safety.” I am well aware of the risks, do my best to minimize them, and feel the benefits here outweigh the risks. There are many other stretches of dangerous official bike routes in the city, more dangerous than this stretch of Beach Drive. Cycling is not a risk-free activity and even repaving the road will not make it so.

  That said, I would love to see Beach Drive here repaved correctly, but will not hold my breath. From what I have been able to perceive, THERE IS NO MONEY to correctly fix the roads in disrepair. The city is in the red, as is the county, state, and country. SOME PEOPLE are apparently doing very well for themselves, but they are not responsible for maintaining our infrastructure.

• Sonoma September 13, 2011 (1:10 am)

  Well put, Gary! Nice to see some common sense. I hope you hear back from the Powers That Be.

• Mark September 13, 2011 (5:26 am)

  I live on Beach Drive near this location. My property taxes this year are $34,300. I commute on my bike downtown a couple times a week. Is it really too much for me to expect the City to repair the street I live on?

• amused September 13, 2011 (5:27 am)

  Car v. bike, car will always win, regardless of how many bike lanes or sharrows you paint on the road. Put your bikes away and stop cluttering up the roads that us fossil fuels users are paying for.

• Al September 13, 2011 (6:02 am)

  I miss riding on Beach Drive. My husband and I refuse to take our bikes on that stretch of road. It’s so dangerous. While I agree with Gary that cycling does come with risk, Beach Drive is one I’m not willing to take!

• Jason September 13, 2011 (6:27 am)

  “In the meantime, what kind of logic is there in designating an unsafe roadway as a bicycle facility? Is this just to have more miles to list on Seattle’s brochures?”
  .
  Did you actually think those “sharrows” were placed and “bike lanes” were created for anything other than politcal reasons? Like placing a bicycle stencil on the ground magically did anything other than cost the taxpayers money??
  .
  There’s no money right now to fix the roads simply because they aren’t 100% bicycle friendly… And I wouldn’t want them to – the city should have OTHER financial priorities in these times – the cost of applying the sharrows was bad enough!

• Estd1973 September 13, 2011 (6:43 am)

  After having two serious bicycle accidents, one involving being hit by a car, I feel much less invincible, and would feel very uncomfortable riding a bicycle anywhere other than a designated bicycle path. I cringe every time I see someone riding a bicycle on the street next to cars. It is a very dangerous activity. Unless you want to take on the high risks, there are safer places to ride, or safer activities to stay healthy.

• Petert September 13, 2011 (6:50 am)

  My house (it’s in the first photgraph) overlooks Beach Drive in this very block. Every weekend during the summer, between the hours of 6:30 and 9:00, I can guarantee that at least 50 or 60 cyclists transit this section of BD, either on their way north, or south to Lincoln Park, and the Vashon Ferry. We can see and hear them from our kitchen.

  I also ride Beach Drive from Lowman to the Bridge and back twice each weekend. This section of BD is a well-ridden, but treacherous, and poorly maintained piece of road.

  The cracks run deep, and BOTH, parallel and perpendicular to the street. New potholes appear every spring. It’s extremely easy to get caught, and as there is parking on both sides of the street, bikers can’t necessarily hug the side, as they could get rutted. So, they have to go out into the street – and get rutted.

  For a road that gets so much bike traffic, and for a city that is trying to get people to bike more, this is a travesty. As a reader said above, Beach Drive is a remarkable and popular ride. It’s a shame we invite citizens and visitors alike to ride this route, and invite them to injury, as well, as a result.

  The city has put money into paving the more visible sections of BD, up between Jacobsen and Mee-Kwa-Mooks Park, ostensibly because the park and the Schmitz overlook make that a very publicly visible part of the road. It should do the same here.

  I publicly challenge Mayor McGinn to bike this section of Beach Drive, experience it himself, and put himself in the position of those who traverse this section of road out of necessity, or recreation. For an official who’s on his bike so much as a public example, I DARE him to come out and see what this is like on a weekend, and see if he can disregard the potential danger it represents.

  And if he can’t see it fit to get something done about paving the roadway (and not a token hot-asphalt fill of some of the cracks), then for heaven’s sake put up a sign at both ends:

  “DANGEROUS ROAD. ALL BICYCLISTS MUST DISMOUNT AND USE SIDEWALK.”

  It’s cheap, and it’s a shame, but it’ll at least warn folks. And it’ll be a sorry caveat for those citizens and visitors who ride one of our city’s most beautiful urban bike routes.

• Yardvark September 13, 2011 (7:12 am)

  Is there a different kind of road surface that should be used at the base of a slide zone?
  It seems like no matter how many times they patch or even fully repair that section, the ground beneath it will still want to move with the waters that pour down that slope.
  Would looking at Stormwater management be a better approach?

• Casey September 13, 2011 (7:19 am)

  My problem with the bike “lanes” are that both bikes and cars become more dangerous. I often wonder why me as a driver will get a ticket for not wearing a seat belt which only helps myself, while bikes don’t have to wear helmets/safety gear such as reflective. And then the way cars respond to them are very dangerous. Just the other day I was coming up marine view drive hill by endolyne joes two bikes (side by side!!) were traveling down the hill and a car behind them without even thinking twice about me traveling the opposite way swerved around them and INTO my lane, I had to quickly think to avoid a collision and swerved off the road into (luckily) someone’s parking strip. I wish there was a better way to teach both bikes and cars to share the road in the safest way possible for all involved.

• LWC September 13, 2011 (8:04 am)

  @Casey just a clarification: helmets and reflectors (but not reflective clothing) for cyclists are required by law, and according to state law it’s legal for cyclists to ride 2 (but not 3 or more) abreast.

• Max September 13, 2011 (8:28 am)

  As every bike rider knows, hazards can jump out at you at any time from any where, especially when you are clipped in. As I totally agree that beach drive needs repair, as well as many other roads and pathways around the sound, I still ride defensively. I am responible for myself when I ride. I’m not saying anybody has, but I will never blame the city for my road rash. I will also never rely on the city for some false sense of security that places me out in a bike lane with a three thousand pound vehicle. I still ride in the streets, but I am totally aware of who “owns” that road, and it’s not me. When the city painted those “bike lanes”, I tought to myself that someone is going to die before our Mayor realizes that these lanes are a bad idea. I think that these ridiculous “bike lanes” give some riders a false sense of entitlement to the road, and thus they attempt to assert their “right” to that space, which creates a very unsafe condition. And yes we DO need real bike lanes that are smooth and separated from traffic in some way. The city justs needs to start building them. It will take some time and money, but I say, build it a little at a time if you have to. If I trusted the city to do what they say they will do with the money that they ask us for, I would pay it. But I need to see asphalt on the ground, not just another study.

  PS…My comment is on the wider issue of bike travel and safety. I am glad that this rider is not seriously hurt, and I don’t assume that I know the particulars of this accident. I am also not blaming anybody for doing anything wrong. Just my opinion.

• CandrewB September 13, 2011 (8:35 am)

  Mark, I think SDOT has placed your road on the “not socially equitable” list.

• Petert September 13, 2011 (8:37 am)

  Two more points about this particular stretch:
  a) The runoff from the eastern slope has been channeled by the city to a rill along the curb that runs north, and drains down and across the incline that’s shown in the first paragraph. In the winter, this freezes and imperils traffic for about 50 yards. There’s already been a “T-Bone” auto accident, where a northbound driver lost control, spun out, and slammed head on into a parked car. I know there are less bikes out in winter, but ANY vehicular traffic is at risk because of that.
  b) Now that the days are growing shorter, bike commuting in the pre-dawn hours along this stretch will pick up, especially northbound. Traction on the road gets pretty dicey with leaves and rain slickng it up, and making the cracks/ruts harder to negotiate, let alone see.

  Maybe the best bet is to condemn this stretch of road outright for all two-wheeled traffic, if the city isn’t going to do anything about it.

  Then again, without the Mayor having seen the condition first hand, maybe I’m being too quick to judge.

  What do you say, Mr Mayor ? Come on out and check it out. Bring your bike, and make sure your insurance is paid up.

• JAT September 13, 2011 (9:28 am)

  Many of the comments here appear to be based in some notion that poor road surfaces and SDOT installation of bike lane markings have only appeared since the election of Mayor McGinn and somehow it’s all his fault.

  Many of the cliff-side roads in our city are in similar condition because the hills here are largely clay with very little topsoil and plant cover to keep them in place – they are in essence moving things and you can put a strip of rigid pavement atop them but that doesn’t change the fact, and eventually that rigid pavement is going to shift and crack and deteriorate too. We probably shouldn’t have built the road there and we probably shouldn’t have put so many houses and pavement above it, but we did.

  Bikes are going to be on the roadway. the roadway is poor, so they’re going to occasionally need to swerve to avoid surface problems.

  There’s no need for outrage about this.

• Wendel September 13, 2011 (9:49 am)

  One reason that the city fails to address issues on this road is that they do not consider it to be a high volume arterial. Bicycles use this facility in great numbers not only because it is more scenic, but because it allows you to go around the peninsula without riding many hills. City traffic engineers aren’t really smart enough to take things like that into consideration. The City puts resources in locations where there are traffic volumes, but measured traffic volumes seldom tell the entire story. Anyone remember the snowstorm in 08? Many motorists used Beach Drive to Alki to Harbor Ave as a hill free way to drive their cars (or walk or bike or ski) off the peninsula. But does the city consider any of these facilities when it comes to snow treatment? No, because the average traffic volume maps do not reflect the way residents use and rely on these streets. Again, the average traffic engineer isn’t really going to be smart enough to take such variables into consideration. For these reasons, Beach Drive will always be in the condition it is today.

• VBD September 13, 2011 (9:51 am)

  For crying out loud Petert, don’t try to nanny me into what YOU think the rules should be. Cyclists have a wide range of skill and abilities, and part of the responsibility of riding on the road is to know your limitations. I ride this stretch frequently, and although I would love to see it smooth and even, I have no problem at all negotiating the bumps and maintaining a good speed. IF a car gets on my wheel, I can keep my speed up to the point he’ll only be there a few seconds.

  I feel really badly for the injured rider. Obviously, this is a sad event. But there are dozens, if not hundreds, of riders that successfully negotiate this patch of bad road each and every day.

  Thanks for caring Petert, but just because you don’t have the skills to ride a rough road doesn’t mean that nobody else does.

• rob September 13, 2011 (9:52 am)

  “Put your bikes away and stop cluttering up the roads that us fossil fuels users aren’t paying for.”

  fixed that for you

  gas taxes make up only a token chunk of the costs of building and maintaining our streets, around 8-9%, and I assure you the vehicles using the gas do far more than 8-9% of the damage. the car tab fees will be another token chunk. most of the money comes from other taxes like sales tax and property tax, which we are all paying, gas or not.

• Peter on Fauntleroy September 13, 2011 (10:07 am)

  Petert: I have a better idea for a sign: “DANGEROUS ROAD. ALL MOTORISTS MUST EXIT THEIR VEHICLES AND USE THE SIDEWALK.”

• Yardvark September 13, 2011 (10:08 am)

  So the rainwater coming down that slope is actually channeled on to the street. Is that true? No wonder the road is in horrible shape.

  This isn’t a bike/car issue. It’s an issue of stormwater management.

• Scooterista September 13, 2011 (10:12 am)

  Yay, Max! As someone who both drives and bikes, I wish that more bicyclists would take more responsibility and ownership for their own safety while on the road. Wearing helmets and reflective gear, of course, but also signaling turns and following the rules of the road are critically important. I do my best to share the road with cyclists, but daily I encounter folks riding recklessly – moving on and off the sidewalk without warning into traffic, making sudden and unannounced turns, and blatently disobeying rules regarding intersections and lights. I would feel terrible if I hit someone and far too many cyclists take risks that put us both at risk. You’d dent my car, but I would likely kill you. If you want to share the road with me, then please have the courtesy and respect to share the rules as well.

• Casey September 13, 2011 (10:25 am)

  @LWC thanks for the clarification. I guess this makes me a little more happy about the “rules” for bikes, however maybe they should take a month to write a few tickets to those not obeying and talk to bikes also about the dangers, until it’s an enforceable law it doesn’t mean much. I see bikers without helmets and reflective daily, and it seems a larger portion without than with. It seems reasonable that they can ride 2 by 2 but then you get to curvy hills where there is almost no visibility and cars do 40+ and it seems to me in the best interest of everyone involved if bikes would go single file to the side on these roads. I think people are right in saying the bike lane gives people a sense of false security.

• Petert September 13, 2011 (10:49 am)

  Yardvark – the rainwater channel was put in only last summer, to help distribute the runoff from the slope that was caused by some clearing done by an upslope home owner, as well as some of the natural springflow from the hillside. The condition of the road itself has been this way for a long time, is probably more of a stability issue, although the water contributes to that, I’m sure.

• JAT September 13, 2011 (10:56 am)

  It would seem to be to be in the best interest of everyone if cars didn’t do 40+ on curvy hills with almost no visibility, but they do and we know they will continue to – yet the comments here seem to call for more restrictions on travel by bicycle.

  It’s the bicyclists that are continually called out as scofflaws here.

  Every damn time some mental midget makes the claim that in car vs. bike the bike loses, and some other civics class drop out makes the claim that cars pay for roads (hint: it far and away property taxes that pay for roads)

  It’s people some are on bikes and some are in cars – roads were made for people – you’re one and I’m one. Deal with it.

  • WSB September 13, 2011 (11:40 am)

    And with JAT’s comment, I am stepping in to say this is not another opportunity to go completely off the rails in bikes-vs.-cars, cars-pay-for-the-roads-bikes-don’t discussion, again, ad nauseam.
    .
    Gary sent info/photos about the bike mishap to call attention to the inarguably sorry state of this stretch of road – which in turn, the city has said it won’t address until the hillside issue, caught up in a legal fight, is settled. The Times happened to publish a story last night pointing out this has been a particularly deadly year for bicyclists around the state, with safety concerns about to be raised by a major bicycling-advocacy group, and last night, that seemed like an opportunity to bring up the local mishap, though a few days had elapsed.
    .
    Yes, not all bicyclists follow the rules. Nor do all drivers follow the rules, but I guess the only reason there’s generally not a movement to turn every car-crash comment thread into a generalization is the fact that the exterior shell of a car hides many sins, from seatbeltlessness to texting-while-driving. To quote JAT, “Roads were made for people.” People trying to get around – whether on/in bikes, cars, trucks, motorcycles, scooters, etc. – all of which need roads that are in decent condition. Thanks in advance for staying on-topic … TR

• homesick September 13, 2011 (12:04 pm)

  As avid bike riders, we feel it’s time for cyclists to also pay their fair share for the maintenance of the streets they occupy.

  Drivers have to pay thru licensing and now it’s time for all of us cyclists to go thru the same process.
  A small license plate hanging from the back of the seat could ensure cyclists not only support road maintenance, but also know the rules of the road.

  Is $20 too much to pay when it could go toward fixing the streets that are now unsafe?

  It’s time for everyone who uses the streets for transportation to pay their fair share.

  We hope the lady who was hurt is doing okay.

• eileen September 13, 2011 (12:14 pm)

  Condemning bicycles to the sidewalk along this stretch would be a joke – have you ever tried it? It’s in worse shape than the road(and some areas non-existant). If you live near genesse hill and want to get to alki or lincoln park there aren’t alot of choices. There is no other connection to the bike path.

• Jiggers September 13, 2011 (1:10 pm)

  This is a City of sliding hills, wake up.

• MIMO September 13, 2011 (1:25 pm)

  The road on West Seattle has been terrible for long time. And I found this story which made me upset. Why City of Seattle is not fixing road?
  It’s not good for car to ride on compare to the normal road. Seattle is not doing good job for people who is living. Always budget cut from education, road fxing or park recreation.
  Beach drive is such a good rout for bicycles. Why don’t you use money to fix and welcome the bicyclist, Seattle?

• My two cents ... September 13, 2011 (2:11 pm)

  That stretch will always be an issue given the slide actions that occur over time. That being said, that road is fit for neither car or bike (well, except maybe for a 4×4). The city should have done something to mitigate that surface at some point over the past decade.

• G September 13, 2011 (2:47 pm)

  I’ve lived in W. Seattle most of my life. I remember riding my bike along this section of BD when I was a teenager on my way to Colman Pool.

  It’s always been cracked and uneven road. There are many springs along here, as well as the entire greenbelt stretching to Me Kwa Mooks. The water lubricates the clay base, and soil just slides right off. It’s not just stormwater.

  We just learned to ride carefully along here, as should others. Sure, we can add some improvement for bikes, but Seattle is not and will never be the Netherlands, if only for it’s convoluted and hilly geography.

• Petert September 13, 2011 (3:12 pm)

  VBD- I’m not ‘nannying’ you, and rest assured I have the ability to ride rough pavement.

  The point is that road conditions should be safely passable, or of a minimum safety condition for -all- cyclists that are permitted on those roads. And this stretch, as a part of a popular bike route that ‘casual’ cyclists will be sure to navigate, doesn’t meet that condition.

  A couple of other posters have made valid points that this stretch will quite possibly never be stable, and will always be in sub-optimum condition. But if that’s the case, then maybe it needs to be marked with a warning on route maps, if not by signage.

• LWC September 13, 2011 (3:13 pm)

  @Casey – indeed! If only all road users stuck to the laws, we’d all be a lot safer.

• CE September 13, 2011 (4:52 pm)

  Bikewise is not official, but it has lots of info on bike crashes based on location.

  http://www.bikewise.org/pub/crash

• Eric September 13, 2011 (6:03 pm)

  LOL… Between the bad roads, closing neighborhood centers, bad fire hydrants and school funding,you would think West Seattle was a third world country.
  .
  But at least the drunks and druggies get a new place on Delridge and your water rates are going up.

• VBD September 13, 2011 (6:12 pm)

  @Petert, signage I’m fine with. A caution warning may be appropriate. I’m objecting to the suggestion that cyclists should be forbidden to ride the road to “protect” them.

  Better still, take the money required to buy a sign and put it towards fixing the road. The newly paved section on the south end of the area, where the sidewalk was fixed is holding up reasonably well. I have noticed cracks forming though. Perhaps it just needs to be repaved every 5 years…

  • WSB September 13, 2011 (6:17 pm)

    I just heard from Cascade Bicycle Club re: the media briefing mentioned in the Times story. It’s now set for Thursday morning, and anyone and everyone interested in attending is invited. Two of the politicians who’ll be there are West Seattleites – City Councilmember Tom Rasmussen, County Councilmember Joe McDermott. It’s in the north end, though. Here’s the info:
    .
    http://blog.cascade.org/2011/09/we-can-do-better/

• Mike September 13, 2011 (6:34 pm)

  Mark, I believe your estate tax goes to King County. They and the City of Seattle don’t get along and definitely do not share budgets.

• JN September 13, 2011 (6:59 pm)

  Judging from the comments I have read on this blog for the past few years, you’d think you were somewhere in East Texas or something from all of the bike hate! No matter what the topic is on, people always come out of god-knows-where to rant about how they saw one cyclist do something illegal, therefore all cyclists are anarchic psychopaths and don’t deserve to walk the face of this earth, let alone ride their bikes on THEIR road. Sorry to go off topic slightly, but I’m just describing the experience I’ve had in reading this blog.

• AJP September 13, 2011 (9:49 pm)

  This stretch of road is absolutely horrible. I have to pay extreme attention when I bike there. But it’s true the geology of the area means always bad roads, and the geology of the peninsula means it’s the least hilly way to get around.

• WSider on the East Coast September 14, 2011 (5:45 am)

  My family was in Seattle this last weekend for a family event and I took them on a drive around Alki Point to Lincoln Park. We were absolutely amazed at the pathetic state of the roads along this route as well as throughout West Seattle. SDOT/WDOT has definitely been giving the Westside folks the short end of the stick when it comes to road maintenance.

• Casey September 14, 2011 (11:37 am)

  One other thing sort of off topic but along the same lines which I think is hilarious. My brother just moved from WS to Snoqualmie Ridge where their roads are brand new anyways since it’s a new town, they are ALREADY repaving their streets!!! I thought this was hilarious because while our streets can be dangerous from the damage to them I think it reminds me that our city has been here for much longer and has history to it. I don’t think I’d necessarily like it if they were all perfect and houses the same like on the ridge.

• I Wonder September 14, 2011 (2:21 pm)

  35th needs a lot of repairs and it was recently repaved also.
  Aren’t there speed bumps on BD to slow drivers down? Maybe the poor road conditions can contribute, otherwise you’ll have a speedway again.
  Would love to hear Cascade BC support ADRT targeting bicylists, particularly on the Ave, and 3rd Ave downtown. Maybe that might create a snapback in bicycle safety. Nahhhh.
  I know in Palos Verdes, CA the police starting patrolling 4 ways agressively for bikes blowing stop signs. Things got straight fast.

• w.s. maverick September 14, 2011 (4:24 pm)

  we should bore a tunnel for the bikes

• Velo_nut September 14, 2011 (8:54 pm)

  I ride and train on the streets of West seattle. Although it is bumpy and slightly hazardous, I’ll take it over 35th any day.
  .
  bumps and cracks come with the territory and beggars cant be choosers.
  .
  just ride the bike and shaddup. we cany all have perfect pavement.

• Cakebake September 14, 2011 (10:19 pm)

  I bet big $ the crash happend cause the city does no maintinence at all on beach dr

Sorry, comment time is over.