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December 18, 2011 at 9:04 pm #742374
kootchmanMemberCorporations pay what is due. Funny you seem so bound to the orthodoxy of liberal confiscation, you fail to realize the progressive tax system is the beating heart of special interests, including labor unions, manufacturers, agriculture, yes, even social progressives, all try to carve out favorable tax treatment. I noted with some interest the Seattle Tmes editorial, which pretty much conceded the point that this Gregoire budget was designed not to prioritize, economize, it was crafted to buffalo the voters.(Sunday) As most taxpayers fully realize. We have been gamed too long, too often to believe it. DBP can post them hundreds of times.. the list of cuts was engineered to create a herd panic and preserve the status quo. Funny, the most dysfunctional parts of this economy are the ones with the closest to government regulatory environment. The moribund, depressed, stressed industries are those with the most amount of government involvement. What do they have that “belongs” to you? JaN asks the rhetorical question… what is fair? A flat tax is fair. Again… and again and again.. from the most successful Treasury Secretary in our history… Andrew Mellon… read the Wikipedia bio. Taxes that are too high… means taxes that will be avoided or capital that will flee to a less confiscatory place. This state budget is a political contrivance.
December 18, 2011 at 10:03 pm #742375
DBPMember. . . the list of cuts was engineered to create a herd panic and preserve the status quo.
Would that it were true, Mr. k. Would that a panicked herd would descend a-bleating on the halls of power now.
If only we would behave like the animals sometimes, for they seem more capable of caring for their own than we do.
But no. In the end we are not animals.
We are only men . . .
 We are the hollow men
 We are the stuffed men
 Leaning together
 Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
 Our dried voices, when
 We whisper together
 Are quiet and meaningless
 As wind in dry grass
 Or rats’ feet over broken glass
 In our dry cellar
Â
December 19, 2011 at 3:19 pm #742376
mirabileMemberAn interesting widget on KUOW that lets you balance the state budget: http://www.educationvoters.org/budget-calculator/
My apologies for unintentional redundancy if it was already posted on another thread.
December 19, 2011 at 4:16 pm #742377
JoBParticipantkootch…
have you actually bothered to read the list of cuts that David has been posting?
the pending cuts follow the lines of the currents cuts that have ended state aid to some of our most needy citizens.
The state program that allocates funds to citizens it thinks are likely to be successful social security disability applicants currently pays less per month than most people spend for a night’s lodging on vacation.
the only one being buffaloed here are those who buy that this is just one big sob story.
December 19, 2011 at 4:19 pm #742378
JoBParticipantkootch..
don’t be coy.
you are all for shifting the burden of taxation…
but i will never understand how you think you will get blood from a stone by shifting it to the poor instead of to the rich who have resources.
that’s one of the worst “business” decisions i have ever heard proposed.
December 19, 2011 at 9:30 pm #742379
kootchmanMemberCoy beats naive every time. Is your “progressive” tax system working today? Is the assistance actually improving the lot and life of citizens other than government employees? DBP..it’s a “bleating” heart budget. Checking my Grinch heart though, I am not really dismayed that self inflicted maladies and subsidy to illegals is cut. JoB you can call the system progressive.. all you want. It ain’t that. why do you insist on riding the same broken horse? It is by casual observation not working. Yet you persist? Why not give K Street a chance at the unemployment line? Politicians + money = tax avoidance. Let’s sum it up.. by vote buying, Democrats have half the country not paying taxes..and republicans have 1% not paying enough taxes? That about sum it up? Leaving the top 10% to haul all the freight? It may make you feel good… satisfy some yearning to assuage the cultural envy, but simply put… even IF you managed to hit the top 5% with an effective tax rate of 50%… it won’t solve the deficit, will not balance the budget… it’s not a fix. It’s a gesture.
December 19, 2011 at 10:08 pm #742380
DBPMemberHey, I’m all for giving K Street a chance at the unemployment line. Everyone here is for getting money out of politics, so that’s a non-issue, really. On this blog anyway.
Is government assistance really improving the lot of people? —Good question. It depends on the person and the assistance program. I expect there are some that don’t help but there are many that do. It’s a shame that so many Washingtonians didn’t even know some of these programs existed. Until now.
Back to your question about the worth of these programs . . . I’m all for Washingtonians sitting down together and evauluating how we can get the best public value for our ever-shrinking tax dollar. But that’s a very different thing than what we’re doing right now. Right now programs are being cut across the board and with very little public input or deliberation. Disabled and elderly people are being cut off from essential services. Criminals are being let out of prison early. Probation programs are being slashed. Crime victim programs are being eliminated . . .
And people – including plenty of liberals – are just sitting there watching in stunned silence.
Same as it ever was.
December 19, 2011 at 10:17 pm #742381
DBPMemberJuvenile Rehabilitation Administration
¶ Reduce juvenile court county funds by 20 percent – $5.5 million
Cuts funding sent to counties for evidence-based programming that serves juveniles, affecting approximately 1,900 youths. These funds provide services to youth to address delinquent behavior and avoid placement in a state juvenile facility.
Â
¶ Reduce caseload and increase efficiencies in facility transitions – $3.3 million
Releases 21 juveniles with non-violent offenses and a low-risk score on the minimum release date. Achieves additional savings by delaying new hires and services in psychiatry and psychology during facility transitions such as the closure of Maple Lane and transfer of youth to Green Hill School and Echo Glenn School.
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¶ Reduce parole services for juveniles by 20 percent – $2.9 million
Reduces the time in which parole is provided or reduces the number of juveniles served.
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¶ Eliminate expansion of juvenile behavioral therapy programs – $750,000
Terminates functional family therapy and aggression replacement therapy for approximately 200 aggressive youths and their families.
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**************************************************************************************
Special Commitment Center
¶ Limit funding for costs for sexually violent predator commitment trials – $2.2 million
Specifies that the state will cover only defense costs for attorneys, paralegals and sheriff transportation, in addition to one expert witness per side and one continuance. Affects about 23 cases per year.
Â
¶ Expedite court hearings for lower risk residents – $1.8 million
Identifies residents deemed to be at less risk of reoffending and advances them to the courts for consideration of release. Affects about 10 residents per year.
Â
¶ Reduce general services – $1.2 million
Cuts food and nursing services, recreation and contracts.
Â
December 19, 2011 at 10:17 pm #742382
kootchmanMemberI think liberals are finally stunned…because their rhetoric is not actionable, on the ground, reality. We have had 40 years of it in WA…. there are more regulations, more ways to fine, tax, fee, confiscate..and the weight is oppressive. A friggin plastic bag debate… complete with fines, fees, … and y’know who will have to enforce it? Police. How did we manage to survive as a species without so much liberal rhetoric converted to liberal action? Meanwhile… back on the ranch… N’Ville doesn’t have a steady source of water… the obvious shows. Now, if there were 2 city staff positions for every tent city resident, a special Berkenstock tax, for tent cities… four studies, parceled out to democrate reliable law and consulting firms…at a heft million buck or so…. then maybe.. eh?
December 19, 2011 at 10:25 pm #742383
DBPMemberOnce again, I agree with you, k.
Personally, I am FOR the bag ban. But we shouldn’t be spending a god damn dime on that issue until Nickelsville has a safe and reliable source of water and electricity.
December 20, 2011 at 4:56 pm #742384
JoBParticipantkootch…
What progressive tax system?
We had one before the republicans gutted it
and yes, it worked.
it’s called an income tax kootch..
when you haul in the income
you incur the tax
it’s that simple
or at least it should be
December 20, 2011 at 5:03 pm #742385
JoBParticipantDBP..
you agree with k?
did you read his argument carefully?
don’t be fooled by his outrage..
his policies won’t fund Nickelsville either…
where do you think the funds Kootch doesn’t want to give up will come from?
they will come from those tax cuts that kootch is calling political grandstanding…
if charity was the answer to those our economy has left behind, there would be no Nickelsville
December 20, 2011 at 6:14 pm #742386
DPMemberJoB:
I have evidence to the effect that kootchman gives some of his time and money to charitable causes and that he cares a lot about the community he lives in, so I take that into consideration whenever I’m consdering his tough-talk arguments.
Beyond that, he’s very useful to this forum, because he embodies the main philosophical difference between liberals and conservatives when it comes to social programs. Liberals like you and me tend to trust the government more with our money; conservatives like him tend to trust it less. But in my experience I’ve found that liberals and conservatives both care about helping people.
Take my dad for example. I never talk with the guy about social welfare programs, because as long as I’ve known him, he’s been an arch-conservative. With him it’s always “the goddam government” this and “the goddam government” that.
But you know what? In his long career as a doctor, he’s literally saved the lives of hundreds of poor people and improved the lives of thousands more – in many cases, for no remuneration. In a typical year before he retired, he’d write off more money as unpaid “charity care” than I’ll donate out of my pocket in a lifetime.
I try to remember that whenever I think about him in the voting booth, looking for the candidate who reminds him most of his hero, Ronald Reagan.
December 20, 2011 at 6:37 pm #742387
kootchmanMemberRepublicans gutted the progressive tax system? What gutted the progressive tax system was, is, and will remain the tax code. That tax code is a collected story book of pandering. Be it tax credits for oil exploration, or college tuition deductions for the middle class. Show me a congressman or woman who enters the house and does not leave a multi-millionaire? Non taxable I might add. In fact look at THEIR records… Tom Daschles, Sen, oops forgot to pay taxes on 3 million in speaking fees or even bothers to report it, and he was going to be the commerce secretary for The Messiah until he was outed. Charilie Rangle, Conressman NY… caught defrauding IRS. Remember this JoB?
he New York Democrat was found guilty on 11 ethics violations, including charges that he had misused federal resources, failed to declare hundreds of thousands of dollars in income and assets on his annual financial statements and failed to pay income taxes on a Dominican Republic home, among others.
And how did those moralizing, pandering, cynical Democrats treat him?
“But in the clearest sign yet of his return from political wastelands, several members of the House Democratic leadership, including Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), headlined a Rangel fundraiser at the Washington restaurant Bistro Bis Wednesday evening.”
But we KNOW Nancy Pelosi is an insider trader, making 7 million on her insider stock trades… birds of a feather do flock together.
And of course, Charlie gets to take his war chest into retirement.
Want more? Believe me, this is one card the Democrats do not want to play. Congress destroyed the progressive tax system. It was dismantled, district by district, interest group by interest group, until your tax code is now 72,000 pages long.
It worked only as long as the economy was strong enough and generated enough wealth to fund the fraud-o-rama. But, this administration is determined to invest in not ready for prime time, money losing ventures, piling up deficits whose claim on the national treasure is staggering and insists that driving capital offshore and protection of wealth means showing no active income.
The profession that generates the greatest number of millionaires? The House and Senate. Please, come out of the naive house of fantasy…. flat tax is just what congress, especialy Democrats do not want. It is enforceable, transparant. Coackroaches hate the light. Sorry, but my support of any notion of responsibility to give up my hard earned income went the way of congressional and presidential ethics. My motto is get what ya can get… my imagination and every possible exemption I can find in those 72,000 pages, I would actually see a tax increase… a substantial one if I was taxed at a flat 18%… the reason I am self-employed? The tax code increases my net income… even paying the full bore for SS, healthcare, (deductible) SEPS, IRA, etc (tax deferred) the list is endless…thanks to congress.
It isn’t working. Let it go. I know my republican cohorts are crooked…. but as JanS says… “we can’t agree on what is fair” because you refuse to see the other side of the aisle for what it is. Their job is a lot easier..their constituents are less educated and more easlily fooled.
December 20, 2011 at 6:42 pm #742388
miwsParticipantmirabile, I was quaking in my boots as I was trying to balance the budget, thinking; “I’ll never be able to do this!’ But I did!
Oh, and don’t worry about any potential redundancy! …..don’t worry about any potential redundancy! ;-)
Mike
December 20, 2011 at 6:54 pm #742389
kootchmanMemberBTY… those tax cuts you are all frothing about…. it’s YOUR SS annuity that is being shortfunded…. it is not a tax cut. It is a vacation from the SS “premiums” that you are going to need to retire on. The SS system is being shortfunded and you know what will happen… the same thing that has always happened… they wll raise the contribution rate, increase the retirement age, to keep it solvent…and calculate benefits to pay in not adjusted for inflation dollars…. and this very morning..the wise and sage barista logic really thinks they are getting a “tax break”… you are too easily fooled.
December 20, 2011 at 7:34 pm #742390
cadburyParticipant“their constituents are less educated and more easlily fooled” That’s funny. I thought that the educated were liberal elitists?
You know DP. I agree that having conservatives on this site is important and I wish we had more. WHEN they post actual facts and make valid argmuents.
When they resort to ridiculous partisan lies, half truths and name calling it is just tiresome.
December 20, 2011 at 11:04 pm #742391
mirabileMemberDecember 21, 2011 at 4:57 am #742392
kootchmanMemberLiberal elitists reside in the shelter of academia…it’s only there they can find a support system and employment. Training the next batch of government workers and politicians. I don’t use the the term liberal elite… would be an oxymoron. When facts are posted.. they are magically not facts if the don’t fit the orthodoxy. But y’know .. no one disagrees the tax code isn’t working and at 72,000 pages there are a whole lot of folks who find favor in those reams and reams of paper… everyone of them granted their exception by a congressperson… pick your horse.. windmill tax credits, or lowered capital gains, ethanol subsidy,.. and what they ALL know is not a one of us will pore over those pages to hold anyone accountable. Ya wanna call a taxation like this one “fair”? O-K then… more of the same I guess. You have a tax code no one understands…that’s the pillar of government you want to lean on? Go for it.
December 21, 2011 at 5:38 am #742393
kootchmanMemberAnd Messr cadbury… read slowly…I said their “constituents are the less educated and more easily fooled” … no one would call the liberal members of congress less educated… but they certainly use their constituents. Here… democrats in line… waiting to vote… and what do they KNOW … just what a liberal press feeds as fodder to the sheep… this says it all. These are the voting masses… god help us. BTY Democrats controlled both houses of congress at the time of these interviews. Thinsk they are hard to fool?
December 21, 2011 at 3:43 pm #742394
cadburyParticipantMessr Kootchman. I read you statement exactly as you meant it. and it is untrue.
Oh wait! you posted that youtube video to prove your point? Really? we have stooped to that level, eh?
Maybe if i get some more time later today i’ll link to interviews with your genius tea party folks…They are pretty fun to watch.
December 21, 2011 at 6:54 pm #742395
kootchmanMemberaren’t they though? But I follow the credo of the Great One..speak no ill of a fellow republican. we can play dueling videos…. got a guitar? I’ll pull out the banjo. That’s the 99% though… the ones so entrusted with the fate of the union. Very sad. It is a good reminder though…this is what our political system rests upon..this level of civil engagement. Every year, the folks I know, decry the acerbic attack ads… the lack of civility,.. then I realize… we aren’t the target audience.. are we? The video displays the target audience… of any party.
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