What is a Feminist?…really

[WorldCitizen]

Can we accept some things as possibly true? Even if said by people we pretty much don’t see eye-to-eye with ever?

Kootchman Wrote:

“proving you are more capable is how you get to be a project manager… regardless of gender. Work is not a love fest of capability….it’s a competitive arena…and “better” means ya ask for more at the table. Mediocrity…is being capable.. excelling is preferred. Maybe that is part of the wage gap?”

This is probably pretty true. Not 100% true I would guess, as there are any number of factors which would put some ahead of others in business, but pretty important nonetheless. Does this prove sexism doesn’t exist in the workplace? No. Does it prove why there is a wage gap between women and men? No.

HMC Rich Said:

“All I can say is that men and women are different and we should celebrate the differences. Fair treatment should be applied to all.”

This is most definitely true. This does not account for the differences in pay for the same job. Being a woman or man does not necessarily solely count for the differences either (although I would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks sexism plays NO role in inequitable pay).

JoB Said:

“After 40 years of fighting it seems all we women have gained is the responsibility of equality without any of the privileges.”

I think most people would agree with this statement. The problem seems to come now with the FACT that a large amount of women make as much as or more than men in the same feild as them. So, there is actually some amount of women benefiting the privileges of equality. That obviously doesn’t mean the problem of sexism in society are gone, it just makes the case harder to make.

The idea of feminism (in my humble, male, and and proudly feminist opinion) needs to evolve and change with the times. The war still needs fighting, but the battles are changing as a result of the progress that has been made. Young boys and girls see powerful women in the spotlight much more today than ever before. They have to be reminded that those women are still the exception and the majority of the corporate and political world is still predominantly a boys’ club. They, along with the older generations who led the fight, also are going to have to realize that society changes slow. We do have to find ways to live and work together in the realities of today and realize that when the older generation steps aside, change will follow. It just takes time. Unfortunately.

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[datamuse]

kootch, does that mean that if I go to the bar wearing a “This is what a feminist looks like” t-shirt, that guys will finally stop hitting on me? Sometimes a girl just wants a quiet drink with her thoughts for company, ya know…

Nice comments, WorldCitizen. And I wholeheartedly agree. One thing I’d add to the point about capability versus excellence: I think the real issue is where a person of one gender will do some work and have it considered excellent, while a person of another gender will do work of the same quality and have it considered capable. It does happen and it’s one reason that blind editorial reviewing processes exist.

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[WorldCitizen]

Yeah, sad but true. But I’d go one step further and say that bias isn’t solely rooted in sexism either.

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[JanS]

for the record…I’m not trying to shut anyone down for saying something on here. But, if I find offense and don’t speak up, then others will assume that it’s OK with all of us. We need to speak up and point out offensive stuff. Yes, they have the right to say it…I have the right to disagree, to not like, whatever, without being denigrated because of it. The 1st amendment goes both ways. And sometimes those who are saying the offensive stuff don’t realize what they’re doing and just need to be educated. I read a lovely quote the other day “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe” Albert Einstein. Remember, just because you CAN say something doesn’t mean you SHOULD.

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[kootchman]

I never considered it datamuse…. field trip! West 5…

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[JoB]

world citizen

if i accept this

“proving you are more capable is how you get to be a project manager… regardless of gender. Work is not a love fest of capability….it’s a competitive arena…and “better” means ya ask for more at the table. Mediocrity…is being capable.. excelling is preferred. Maybe that is part of the wage gap?”

i have to accept that women are less capable than men.. even when they have equal education..

because pay for women reflects a clear gap between what the sexes are paid for the same work.

When the definition for excellence favors male mentor-ship and bonding ..

women will always be considered less capable.

there are exceptions to this rule of course..

but if you take the exceptions out of the wage scale.. what a woman makes compared to what a man makes for the same job falls even further…

this equality stuff is not all it’s cracked up to be.

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[JoB]

I’m with Tde

i just let the sponsors know i was done doing business with them as long as they sponsored Limbaugh.

I am glad some sponsors decided that doing business with Rush wasn’t worth losing the business of the customers he offended.

after all. the purpose of sponsoring an entertainment venue is to gain.. not lose.. customers.

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[WorldCitizen]

JoB:

Yeah, I hear you. I don’t think it’s that cut and dry, but I can’t really argue against that either. I do think that some industries are making progress, and younger women may be making more headway than older women, but you may be right that these are the exceptions. What I can cay is this is a very complex situation and the wage gap is most likely a result of many factors, not the least of which is sexist attitudes toward women.

Believe me when I say that I will be making sure my two daughters enter the working world with their eyes wide open…and an ability to negotiate with the best of them.

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[JoB]

world citizen..

all i can say is the fact that a women needs a PhD to be promoted to the same job a man with a BS or Masters held before her has been proven by the daughters of my generation.

we won’t know what will happen with their daughters until they get to that level.

I would hope that would change.

But then, i had hoped it would change for our daughters too…

will i have to wait for my great granddaughters?

I suspect that is something i won’t live long enough to see.

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[JoB]

What i am totally unable to understand is why feminism is not defined by those with the largest stakehold in the definition… women ?????

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[WorldCitizen]

I’m not sure this is true..or maybe not entirely accurate:

“all i can say is the fact that a women needs a PhD to be promoted to the same job a man with a BS or Masters held before her has been proven by the daughters of my generation.”

From the experiences of many people I know a PhD is potentially a hinderance in the public sphere. Also, the prerequisite requirements of a job change over time. So, if a job formerly occupied by a man with a BS or Masters degree opens up it may be necessary for the new applicant to hold a higher amount of initial training to be qualified. The real question seems to be if a woman needs a higher degree to be considered for the same job as a man applying for the same job at the same time. I’m not sure If this is true (and I’m totally devoid of any sources of study on this particular point to reference). I wouldn’t be surprised if this happened on a semi-regular basis, but again I have no real information or studies to say if this is in fact a big problem.

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[kootchman]

Re #60, if it was an insular issue involving one gender fine. define away. but it doesn’t. I have no burning desire to storm the women only clubs or groups. If your definition includes actions, laws and consequences that involve me, I am an egual stakeholder.

You are too are too far out of the mainstream JoB… the salary gains of women., attendance at higher education institutions, belies the “anecdotal musings” you postulate

But now there’s evidence that the ship may finally be turning around: according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group. In two cities, Atlanta and Memphis, those women are making about 20% more

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html#ixzz1oLmiDwXT

or

The Crossover in Female-Male College Enrollment Rates

February 2007) Since 1991, the proportion of young women enrolled in college has exceeded the enrollment rate for young men, and the gap has widened over time.1 In 2005, about 43 percent of women ages 18 to 24 were enrolled in college, compared with 35 percent of young men. This represents a major shift in the gender balance at U.S. colleges and universities. Between 1970 and 2005, the gender composition has shifted to the extent that women now make up the majority—54 percent—of the 10.8 million young adults enrolled in college.

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2007/CrossoverinFemaleMaleCollegeEnrollmentRates.aspx

Don’t let evidence and facts sway you though. Bulldog bite on that dogma. Get more familiar with contracting with the state and federal government and set asides for women, who can circumvent low bid, bond requirements, and all manner of rules men must follow.

Outcomes are complex. The choice to raise children absolutely means compromises will be made. Been there done that. i turned down a couple of lucrative offers if I relocated. School and community for critter were part of the decision matrix, AND the wages and compensation of her professional mother were, at the time higher. I am not screaming “nuclear family discrimination” nor do I begrudge whoever secured the opportunity. Tell ya this though, as a trend… there is clearly a female gender advantage. I am happy, I have a daughter. I suspect she is far more adaptable, savvy, competitive, secure and capable of team play or autonomy when it is required. Maybe your daughters who are saying “gender bashing” are more astute than you give them credit for.

Funny how the roles turn eh? Men are now evaluating the income potential of their future mates. What a reversal of an old trend. A thoughtful essay by a woman….

http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/11/stop-telling-women-to-do-startups/

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[JoB]

World Citizen

“The real question seems to be if a woman needs a higher degree to be considered for the same job as a man applying for the same job at the same time.”

in the cases i know about.. the answer would be yes.

i know several instances where a particular woman with a masters degree was passed over by a man with an equal or lessor degree and was only granted the coveted position after taking years off and incurring huge debt to pursue a PhD … in fields where a PhD is normally a hindrance.

Btw.. a good many of them went back to work for the company that hadn’t promoted them until they achieved the credentials that “proved” their worth to upper management… in spite of strong male mentors within in the company.

too often the “assumption” is that if a young woman has a strong male mentor he also enjoys “benefits”.

there really is a huge double standard out there.

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[TDe]

Here’s a fun article I stumbled across just this morning on the status of women worldwide:

http://shine.yahoo.com/work-money/women-8217-status-worldwide-best-worst-places-182000189.html

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[JoB]

kootch…

i would be happy to learn that the tide was truly turning…

but i am not willing to wait another two generations to see it turn.

there is a reason the acronym for the largest women’s rights organization is NOW.

i remember the jubilation when the ERA passed our congress.

We are closing on half a century since then and it is still not ratified.

i am not so jubilant any more.

You say women have already received equal rights..

if that was true, well over half of our disagreements on this forum wouldn’t exist.

and you wouldn’t talk to or about us the way you do :(

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[JoB]

Tde..

thanks for posting that link..

reality bites.

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[DBP]

What the OP was orginally wondering is why people seem to react so strongly when a woman describes herself as a feminist.

I think the way this thread has played out has pretty much answered that question. Regardless of how straightforward the concept of gender equality seems, there’s just too much baggage attached to the term “feminism” for it to be of much use in a conversation.

From the OP:

I believe a feminist is just a female of any age that wants the same rights as any man. What is so wrong with that?

Yeah. OK. But why is it that whenever we get into the details of what this actually means, it’s not long before I start feeling the SPOTLIGHT of BLAME being turned upon me? — as if I, as a man, had some personal share of the guilt for holding women down. (Figuratively speaking.)

I have a female friend who is always eager to discuss the concept of feminism with me. But whenever she starts using words like “patriarchy” and “sexism” — as she inevitably does — the conversation languishes.

I’m tired of words that end in “—ism” and all the drama associated with them.

I prefer words that end in “—gasm”

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[JoB]

DBP..

i refuse to admit the irrelevancy of the term feminist simply because a lot of self serving people attached so much baggage to it.

I have never had any confusion or baggage when using the terms feminist or feminism.

I know exactly what they mean..

i am too tired today to go look up the quote…

but my favorite goes something like this..

i am not sure what the term feminist means these days.. i just know that it is applied to me every time i declare myself unwilling to become a doormat…

while i am pretty sure you mean well when you say you prefer -gasm to -ism when relating to females…

you have no idea how strongly that statement makes the point of feminism.

in mixed company, too often talk of equal rights for women devolves in sexual innuendos.

and that is why you feel the spotlight of blame focused on you.

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[WorldCitizen]

JoB:

That’s unfortunate to hear, but not really surprising. I would say that I’ve not known any woman who’s experienced this in my peer group as of yet. (I’m 33 years old, for your reference). I have known many women in the generation or two before me who can attest to this kind of discrimination. I’m well enough informed to know that just because I personally know no one who has encountered this, doesn’t mean it’s not a real and current problem.

I would say that Kootchman in post #62 sited a couple of very promising articles about this topic. I’m hesitant to take anything Time Magazine says as ultimate truth, but the sources they use are pretty compelling and INCREDIBLY ENCOURAGING. This all points back to what I said earlier about needing to change the discourse to adapt to the new needs of women in the workplace. There’s obviously still discrimination and it needs to be taken seriously, especially now that it’s getting less common. But, adapting to the new realities and using them to the greater good’s advantage seem to be of paramount importance. Sweeping the issue under the table is of course a mistake.

Traditionally male dominated fields will of course take longer to break into for women, as the men that have been there for so long have the jobs at the highest levels already. It takes time for women to break into the upper echelon of Engineering and the like. Also, the numbers will probably have to be looked at closely to take into account major industries like Construction, which will probably have few women running things in the foreseeable future. These major industries will likely have some sort of queueing on the numbers as a whole (how much I can’t say).

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[JanS]

DBP…sometimes the conversation should not end up in jokes. Re: your post #67…if the shoe fits !

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[herongrrrl]

Congratulations, DBP, you have identified the first obstacle to unlearning sexism (or racism, or any other of those isms you don’t like).

It is an intensely uncomfortable experience for one to be told that one is somehow responsible for the oppression of another group, when one is unaware of one’s role in that oppression. It is much easier to reject out of hand the assertion that one is part of the problem instead of learning more and examining how one’s life of privilege contributes to the oppression of others.

That doesn’t change the fact that most of us contribute to the oppression of other groups in ways we aren’t aware of until we take the time to learn about the systems that reinforce the oppression, and how to end our contributions to those systems. It takes effort. You have to want to do it. Not everyone does. It doesn’t (shouldn’t) result in a lifetime of self-flagellation and guilt, but a lifetime of activism to equalize the playing field. And, ironically, sometimes one’s privilege actually helps to do that in ways the oppressed group hasn’t yet managed.

A good article on this point:

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/analysis/theory/unlearning-sexism-other-oppressions/

And something else…

http://www.nadinemoawad.com/2010/06/to-unlearn-sexism/

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[kootchman]

ERA . maybe it didn’t pass… maybe it never will. Maybe it ain’t necessary after all… the better angels of our nature prevailed. A fight you don’t have to fight.

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[DBP]

Yeah, so let’s go on a fishing expedition to discover how we’re all guilty of oppressing someone else. That sounds like a barrel of fun, herongrrrl.

grrrr . . . lllll . . .

I’m curious: How is that you can feel so comfortable making a sweeping generalization about me (e.g., that I’m an oppressor just because I’m a man) but if I were to make a much milder generalization about you, as a woman, you’d be offended?

I don’t get that. Is it reverse sexism or what?

Ha. Gotcha! Reverse sexism!

It’s sad, really, because words like sexism and racism did mean something. Once. Now they mean nothing. They’ve been utterly devalued, thanks to overuse.

***************************************************************************************

If someone wants tell me how they are personally working to end gender inequality, I’m all ears. Are you mentoring girls in business or science, for example, or working to end violence against women somewhere? I think that’s great.

But if you want to start off with the premise that somehow gender inequality is my fault . . . then forget about it. You just lost yourself a supporter.

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[herongrrrl]

Actually, DBP, I’m going through the same process right now with my own racism. And that process, which was not easy to start and is not always comfortable, will never end.

I didn’t think I was racist. I didn’t understand at first why it was important for me to hear the anger and pain of groups that my ethnic group has traditionally oppressed, when I didn’t feel I was a part that oppression. I didn’t understand why they wanted to keep making me feel so bad about things that I had nothing to do with. I didn’t understand my own role, however small, in reinforcing that oppression. It took a very personally painful experience for me to realize that the onus is on me to learn about their experiences, listen with an open mind, and examine the things about our society that continue to contribute to their oppression, to realize it wasn’t about me, to get over my knee-jerk defensiveness of trying to reassure myself that I was a good person so anyone who wanted to accuse me of racism wasn’t worth listening to.

And funny thing, some years into this journey, I really don’t find myself spending a lot of time dwelling on guilt over my prior unwitting participation in maintainting institutional racism. Not a lot of time to feel guilty when you are learning, growing, and acting.

So, no, I’m not making a sweeping judgement of you. I am reflecting on my own experience, and offering it to you as something you might want to explore, if you can look past that initial reaction of discomfort.

Bringing it back to sexism, the truth is, it IS your fault, and it’s my fault, too. We were all socialized with the -ism norms, so we are all participants in maintainting them until we choose otherwise. As it happens I do mentor girls in science, I’ve worked with female survivors of sexual abuse, and helped women who are fleeing from abusive marriages. But every time I don’t speak up when someone uses sexist language, every time I let a gender-based assumption pass at my daughter’s preschool, every time I don’t write a letter or make a phone call on a policy issue that disproportionately impacts the welfare of women, I’m contributing to the problem by inaction. I recognize that I only have so much time and energy in a day, I’m not a saint, and I can only do the best I can. And I think if everybody made the choice to do the best they can on this issue, there would be a lot less racism, sexism, you name it. Maybe even feminism, because it wouldn’t be necessary for women to have a movement to recognize their own humanity.

I’m sorry you’re not interested in looking deeper than the initial response of “not my fault.” As with all societal ills, each of us has a part to play, even if we don’t recognize it at the time. The choice not to act is also a choice. I hope, eventually, you will be ready to take that fishing trip and realize that guilt is NOT the goal. Equality is.

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[TDe]

Old proverb says… not a direct quote, but close… “When the student is ready, a teacher will appear.” Thank you for apprearing, herongrrl. Your words are profound, thought provoking and will become a catalyist for some serious reflection here.

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