WASL/School Standards

[Caduceus]

Figured this would fit here, sorry if it would be better placed in Open Discussion :P

Is there anyway to change the WASL/WA school standards?

At the moment the WASL is mostly multiple choice, and really the questions aren’t difficult at all.

As a matter of fact I remember two questions specifically from when I took the WASL in the 5th grade, when I took them again sophomore year (Am now a senior).

I’m unable to find the statistics again, but I’ve read that quite a few students in WA failed the WASL miserably, if I remember correctly the % was of the large majority.

Now please don’t take this the wrong way and that I am not trying to be on a high horse. I am just awfully concerned. The standards for us students today are so grotesquely low, it just gives people an excuse to half-a** ( lack of a better word :/ ) their way through school because it isn’t difficult at all. The lack of challenge presents an opportunity to take an easy way out.

And even the Advanced Placement classes in public schools and honor rolls are still lower in standards then a regular private school program.

I.E. The standards are lower in West Seattle High School’s AP and H classes, then Bishop Blanchet’s average classes (non AP and H).

Public schools get a lighter work load and are generally father behind knowledge and comprehension wise then people of the same age and grade in private schools.

Math is obviously difficult for most people, as it isn’t engaging at all and most people can’t think of practical uses for Calculus, Algebra and Trigonometry in everyday life.

But when I see people who can’t read in high school, or have poor comprehension of what they are reading. That is just horribly, horribly, sad.

Again I’m not trying to be condescending on a high horse or anything like that at all. I just find it concerning that my generation specifically seems to be quite lack-luster when it comes to basic logic and comprehension.

I left High school specifically because the lack of a challenge and am now enrolled at a program at South Seattle Community College, and was in Running Start for a half-year. I find it HIGHLY unlikely that most people will have anything other then an extremely difficult time adapting from the easy-going, piece of cake, high school atmosphere to weekly college papers 5-10 pages in length, or advanced math review classes.

Not to mention the tests you get in most classes which are largely small/short essays. Rarely are you going to get Multiple Choice tests in College level classes. (100 and up)

How would we (myself and others I know who have like minds) go about attempting to change this?

And what are your thoughts?

Are you a student, parent of a student? What is your take?

P.S. Sorry for the lengthy wall-o-text! Got carried away :]

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[changingtimes]

i think that this all depends, and also is very variable! I grew up going to private school all my life, yes i know im still a terrible speller! but our standards where very high! i remember starting to pull all nighters my sophmore year with 20 page papers due almost every month! at this minute i can not afford private school for my daughter so i researched the best public school. By the way we are talking grade school here. There was such a huge difference in the test scores!!! even in west seattle!!! i decided to send her over to John Hay on top of queen ann because the school is THAT good. My nephew goes to school here in west seattle and in the 3rd grade he still can not read anything but the most basic, and forget math! anyways point being in the 1st grade she started having trouble, and before i even knew the school had set up an intervention and now she has a tutor at school everyday to help her. and special one on one monitoring. I think this is fab! and yes this is PUBLIC school!!! but i dont understand why my nephew can not get the same kind of attention…my only theory is demographics but you would think a public school is a public school and all should be able to offer the same assistance……anyways sorry so long, but long story short if you really want your children to have a good education it takes some really good research on which schools to place your child in! this is my take…

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[bertha]

Caduceus – I don’t understand your post. The WASL is NOT multiple choice and never has been. The test is all essay and you must explain and justify your answer. Perhaps you are thinking of a different test.

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[Anonymous]

According to wiki it has 4 question styles *multiple-choice, short-answer, essay, and problem solving*

Caduceus, the Wikipedia entry comments on the controversial aspects of the test. Have you read it? Includes references and external links where some of your questions might be answered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Assessment_of_Student_Learning

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[CMP]

I didn’t think the WASL was all essay. I had to grade them for a temp-agency after I had graduated college and couldn’t find a real job. Granted, that was ten years ago, but I do remember it rather well. It was rather disheartening to read some of these essays, knowing that this was the future of Washington…pretty pathetic. I remember with the math portion, kids would have to explain how they reached their answer, which I always found difficult, even from my own test-taking days pre-WASL. If the education system would focus on something other than standardized tests, you might have more time to teach these kids more important things to actually make them kinda smart. But most school children I encounter are lazy and have this misguided sense of entitlement which I’ll blame on their parents. I’ve concluded no kiddos for me unless I can afford to send them to private school. My parents work for the Bellevue School District and after hearing stories about how things work over there, moving across the lake isn’t the answer to your problems.

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[beachdrivegirl]

I think what you are forgetting is that although typically the WASL does have multiple choice answers the multiple choice is worth significantly less than the short answer and extended response questions. Furthermore, the WASL test high failure rate typically has to do with students who have english as a second language. The WASL test is a very inaccurate assessment of education level, IMO. My father is on the school board, my brother in law is a principal, and my mother and sister are teachers and they all share the opinion that the WASL is very inaccurate in its measurements. However, I do love hearing that you do care so much about your education not enough students do these days.

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[j]

I’m a 5th grade teacher (in Bellevue) and I wish there where more multiple choice questions on the WASL. My poor kids struggle year after year because the Science WASL is practically all writing.

To find out about the types of questions, go to OSPI, not Wikipedia. You can see released questions for every grade. There are three types of questions on the WASL:

-Multiple Choice (1 point)

-Short Answer (2 points)

-Extended Response (4 points)

I could go on for days about the pros and cons so I’ll spare everyone.

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[swimcat]

It’s great that you are concerned about the education system at such a young age- it is a mess in this area and I don’t see any way things can be fixed any time soon because it’s such a disaster (let’s just say that both the Bellevue and Seattle School Districts are a little top heavy on the administrative end).

When my family moved to Bellevue in 6th grade I could tell the schools weren’t that great- I coasted through high school barely doing much and I still got mostly A’s with some B’s. It wasn’t challenging at all, and I was glad I had started my education elsewhere (private school in Mississippi and So.Cal) so I had a good head start.

I’m sure the reason WASL has a lot of multiple choice is the cost of grading the test. I remember taking standardized tests but it wasn’t such a huge focus. WASL scores help set budgets for every school and that test is all they seem to focus on. It’s a shame- it all comes down to money and the children suffer for this. Another problem is uninvolved / too busy parents- I won’t even get started on that issue.

Needless to say, my children will likely be going to private school when the time comes. Just watching the ineptitude of the local school districts from afar is disgusting enough- I can’t imagine having my children personally involved.

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[GenHillOne]

Another downfall of the “one size fits all” testing comes to light in the reporting as well. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, there is no breakdown of student populations when WASL scores are listed in a school’s annual report. For instance, our WS grade school was wonderfully diverse and included many ESL/ELL students. I even think it was even a magnet of sorts for 2-3 particular languages, which I thought they did throughout the district and was a good use of resources because the teachers could be specialized. I always cringed a bit at the kindergarten fairs because our school’s numbers, ESL/ELL scores included, were always compared (by prospective parents) to Lafayette’s numbers with Spectrum, another magnet of sorts, students’ scores included. Apples to oranges. There was no way to look at how the students who were neither ESL/ELL nor Spectrum were fairing at the various choices. On the flip side, it would be nice to be able to compare how the ESL/ELL and Spectrum students were testing at different schools to see how those programs are doing. Perhaps this has changed and I’ve missed it, but I do encourage friends and neighbors going through the process to take those scores with a grain of salt and to look deeper, because it is easy to place a lot of weight there when looking for a school.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Very good point GenHillOne

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[gambaru]

When I entered the teaching profession I was told this story and I have always kept it in my mind while teaching, “A group of teachers gathered in the auditorium for their annual pre-school year kick off motivational speech. The key note was a business man who was talking about setting goals and developing action plans to systematically achieve your goals and standards. At one point a teacher raised her hand and asked, “You seem to be very successful in your field. If you don’t mind me asking, what was your business?”

The speaker replied, “We processed blue berries for various foods which included them as ingredients.” The teacher continued, “Well, what did you do when you received a shipment of sub-par blueberries?” “Well, I would send them back to my supplier and raise hell.” In a soft voice the teacher asked, “Well, what am I supposed to do with my blue berries?”

Education is a very complex and unfortunately politically influenced issue. Unfortunately for our children, educators are typically not the ones who are making educational decisions for their students and are often blamed for the pitfalls in our educational system.

Ask ANY teacher what they think of standardized testing, and almost universally, you will open a door to a tirade about how inappropriate they are for our students. Simply put, STANDARDIZED TESTS ARE INAPPROPRIATE BECAUSE OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT STANDARDIZED HUMAN BEINGS. Don’t get me wrong, educators can utilize the over all data to pinpoint gaps in their curriculum and make changes in that way. However, educators do not need a standardized test to identify learning issues and disabilities in individual students.

Caduceus, I’m very glad for you that you have been very successful academically and have plans to go to college. However, not everyone is in the same boat as you are and simply increasing the difficulty of the WASL will not fix the problem you are seeing in your peers. The focus on standardized testing is a result on federally mandated No Child Left Behind. Most likely, there will not be a change until there is an administration change and education is made a priority.

changingtimes- so many factors play into why schools are different. Home support, demographics, funding, and quality instruction all affect a school. All we can do as teachers, is meet our students where they are when they come to us and take them as far as they can go in the short time we have them in our care.

Our education system is a Pandora’s Box of issues that will not be resolved by a quick fix. It will take a lot of nation and state-wide change and funding that will not offer a measurable monetary return…

Best of luck, Caduceus.

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[Caduceus]

Wow, lots of responses!

I’m overjoyed to see teachers and parents are active on here! :]

I simply brought up the WASL because it is grossly apparent that most teachers teach so their students will pass the WASL and not necessarily teach their students anything they will be able to use later on.

And because of this, if the WASL was changed to include things we as students and young people would be able to use in what should be our college-oriented goals then I speculate we would be seeing our community grow more constructively.

Now I understand college isn’t the goal for everyone, but it should be.

In this country especially, education is entirely dependent on how you will fair in life. (granted there are some exceptions.)

I do believe it’s safe to say most people don’t enjoy living pay check to pay check or having to deal with stressful money issues frequently.

A college degree will greatly increase an individuals professional opportunities, and higher degrees will open even more doors.

Now not to say you’re screwed without a college degree a lot of people get by just fine and live comfortably, but a large majority of the people with financial troubles do not have a college degree or even a high school diploma.

I will not touch on the subject of ESL students simply because that is an entirely different basket, and may spark bad feelings as that is a testy subject. But I will say this, and bare with me. I think it is un-fair to lower the standards for the children of families who have lived in this country for generations and speak English as their first language, because we have heavy immigration and the people who have English as a second language have a difficult time keeping up. Yes, I am aware that that is not the only cause for lowered standards. I am conscious of the average teachers ludicrously poor pay (in comparison to what it should be, which needs to be changed immediately), the often restricted budgets for individual schools (in terms of where they are placed and the ethnicity of that neighborhood). Etc

But I do suppose it isn’t fair to put all the blame on the school district. The lack of a child’s drive can be blamed on the parents I guess. But in High School, if a young-adult wishes to act like a child and has similar goals to a child then that is his or hers conscious decision and hardly reflects directly on their parents or the school district.

Our society as a whole needs a change of mentality, entirely.

We need to cease to be dependent on religion, entertainment, media (don’t even get me started on the news stations), traditional ideals, greed etc.

And begin to create a society based on co-existence and constructiveness.

Which seems to be a distant dream now-a-days which it probably is but it isn’t impossible.

And I believe a more useful education in a more constructive environment will help us get there that much faster.

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[wspeeps]

Caduceus,

I admire your optimistic outlook and your call for changes in our educational system, I, however find your ideas bit naive and ignorant to the inner-workings of public school system.

First of all, in regards to standardized tests (i.e. the WASL) teachers have no choice but to teach to the tests. If our students preform poorly, not only do our schools risk funding, but we risk losing our jobs as well. We have no control over what information is tested and what format the test takes (multiple-choice, essay, ect…). Those decisions are federally mandated and the districts and teachers have NO CHOICE but to give them. As a teacher, I am very frustrated about the standardization of curriculum and being forced to teach to a test and I know that the large majority of us try our best balance our instruction between test material and real world skills.

In regards to ESL/ELL students, it is extremely ignorant to say that standards are lowered for these students. These students have different learning needs and their instructional programs reflect that. Our classrooms today are INCLUSIVE and there are a large variety of students who have different learning needs in every classroom. The ESL programs are designed to help support these students to be successful in school and so they have a chance to continue on to college. Would you rather our schools let these kids flounder and eventually frustrate them to the point where they drop out of school and they are spit out at the bottom of society? Or, perhaps, is it better that we give them the tools necessary to be active, contributing members of our society and give them the chance to go on to college. You did seem to point out the importance of a college education…

And in regards to your comment that college should be the goal of everyone, once again, your argument is completely naive. College is not the place for everyone and a 9-5 desk job is not everyone’s goal. Is there not value is people learning vocational trades? Just because someone does not have a college degree does not mean they are not a successful, contributing member of our society or that they do not have a strong earning potential. Success is measured in so many different ways and to make blanket statements like “college should be the goal for everyone” is irresponsible.

Your idealism is wonderful and I encourage you to go out and help make some of these changes happen in our world. We do need people motivated, strong people to help make a difference. However, I would also encourage you to go out and gain a little perspective and some real-world experience.

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[Caduceus]

I never claimed to know any inner-workings of the public school system, I do know however, how it effects us students and how it is perceived by us.

About my ESL comment, you can make a separate thread if you wish and we can discuss it there. But as a student who has shared 12 years with ESL students I can say yes, standards are often lowered for them and the classes they are in. You can argue that with your own optimism if you wish but I advise you to go school-to-school and “gain a little perspective”. -End of acknowledgment of any further ESL discussion in this thread.

College should be the goal for anyone, and half your paragraph is just repeating what I’ve already said. You would be a fool to argue the the great divide in this country is something other then our poverty line. How many people do you think are in poverty and of the lower class with a college degree compared to those without one? Is that merely naive coincidence?

It is unfortunate that this country caters to people with money and big businesses but that is how it is. Although gas is cheap here in America it is steadily rising, as is our real estate.

Also if you’re going to point out blanket statements in my replies at least refrain from making your own! :]

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[hopey]

Which 23 year old do you think makes more money: a fresh college graduate, or the person who spent three or four years apprenticing to become a power line worker?

You tell me: http://www.nwppa.org/web/jobs/Linecrew1.shtml

You’ve got quite a chip on your shoulder there, Caduceus. I am glad you are accustomed to being the top of the heap. I hope you have been accepted into a very good college, where you can learn that there are people even smarter than you are — people who know the difference between “then” and “than”, “effects” and “affects”, or “fare” and “fair”.

College is NOT for everyone. Who do you think maintains our roads, builds our homes and office buildings, and picks up our garbage? By and large, those people are not college graduates. And in the very near future, most of those jobs are going to be filled by immigrants because our fine American youth think they are “too good” to perform those kinds of service jobs… nevermind the hefty paychecks that come along with them.

Your arrogance and sense of entitlement are truly impressive. The person who said you could stand to gain more life experience before making blanket pronouncements is less sophomoric than you, and I concur with their advice.

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[gambaru]

Thank you, WSpeeps and Hopey.

Caduceus- your elitist attitude and lack of understanding for those less fortunate than you are concerns me. By less fortunate, I am not necessarily referring to your parents’ income either.

Some of my most brilliant students suffer from severe learning disabilities and standardized testing are simply the wrong way to assess their skills. Many times, my other students in class don’t even understand why “certain” students get certain privileges like a difference in assignment requirements or more use on the computers to type. I am constantly hearing “That’s not fair.” Little do they know the difficulties those other students face and must accommodate for. It would be more unfair for me to treat all my students as though they are on equal footing because they certainly are not. So as a student, you see “lower expectations” for your fellow students. As a teacher I ask, “Do they have an IEP? Are they ESL?”– That is why WSpeeps brought the conversation back to ESL. ESL IS relevant to what you are talking about. Making the standardized tests more difficult for students will not solve anything for the students who are struggling to pass them. It is not always a matter of them taking it seriously or not.

Also, speaking of your response to WSpeeps, who are you to dictate where the conversation goes, and what people can or cannot talk about on a thread? News flash kiddo, no college in the world will teach to the compassion or integrity your previous post lacked.

As a teacher, my suggestion for you would be to print off this thread and show it to a teacher you can have a heart to heart conversation with. Perhaps giving you an insider perspective about your particular school will give you a more in-depth understanding of what WSpeeps was referring to and why he/she thought your comments were irresponsible.

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[seattlesue]

Caduceus,

Oh to be young and naive again.

I cannot help but to agree whole heartedly with the posts debunking your truly ignorant ideas.

Where to begin…

Your idea that the standards and the format for the WASL and high school requirements need to be changed because they are not difficult for YOU, is as one previous member stated “elitist”. Good for you for passing with flying colors and for finding ways to expand your high school education to suit your academic goals. Just because this test is a piece of cake for you, does not mean that it is easy for everyone or that we need to change our standards for high school graduation. It SHOULD be easy for someone, like yourself, who obviously qualified for advanced programs such as Running Start and AP classes.

Please do not speak for the rest of your peers…as another post commented standardized testing is clearly not an effective or appropriate way to assess all students and act purely as a means of meeting the requirements of government mandates such as NCLB. As for changing it…only time and new administration will tell.

And dear, dear, child, please do not even open up the ESL can of worms unless you are ready to truly back up your arguments with research and EXPERIENCE. As a 20 year ESL teaching veteran and former teacher in the LA Unified School District, I find it sad that the prejudices and lack of understanding of ESL programs still run deep. Please feel free to comment when you have truly researched teaching methodologies and best practices and THEN we will discuss this issue.

It is wonderful that you aspire to continue on with your university studies, I hope that your college degree will help you to become quite prosperous in the future. But just remember, kindness, understanding, and global perspective do not come with a diploma. These are only things you can learn with time and world experience. Please go out and really experience and explore these issues in our world before you decide to make ignorant statements. It saddens me to think today’s youth is this closed minded. I had thought we had come some far…

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[Caduceus]

I’ll just quote myself a few times since some of you have made some silly comments that I’ve already addressed, I’ll also correct your misconceptions because of your condescension on me being young .

Hopey said: “Which 23 year old do you think makes more money: a fresh college graduate, or the person who spent three or four years apprenticing to become a power line worker?”

I previously said: “Now not to say you’re screwed without a college degree a lot of people get by just fine and live comfortably,”

Hopey also said: “You’ve got quite a chip on your shoulder there, Caduceus. I am glad you are accustomed to being the top of the heap.”

My response: Of course I have a chip on my shoulder, I came from a bankrupt family who moved 2-3 times a year and I managed to learn how to read, I managed to comprehend basic math, I managed to learn how to grasp the English language , etc. That doesn’t make me an amazing genius, that just means I’m not mentally challenged.

If you cannot read in high school.

If you cannot grasp the concept of positive and negative numbers in high school.

If you aren’t sure what the difference between “your” and you’re” is in high school.

You do not belong in high school. You should be tutoring in all of your free time, you should paying 100% attention not talking about how awesome Grand Theft Auto was, and how you waited outside for 2 hours to get it before anyone else, etc.

Is it rude for me to look down on someone who is 17, speaks fluent English, is mentally capable and can’t read even though they’ve consistently been in school? No.

The same way it isn’t rude for me to look down on a 10 year old, who can see, who can move their arms and fingers, speaks perfect English, is mentally capable, who can’t do those infant puzzles where you match the shapes to their corresponding slots.

Hopey also says: “College is NOT for everyone. Who do you think maintains our roads, builds our homes and office buildetcetc”

I again, already said: “Now not to say you’re screwed without a college degree a lot of people get by just fine and live comfortably,”

Hopey, in case you missed it the first few times, the key word in that quote is “A LOT”.

(have decided that individual quotes will take forever)

My –>entire<– point was people with special needs are beside what I’m trying to say since obviously they are an exception. You can’t compare a perfectly well student with someone with a severe mental issue, or someone who is blind, or someone who can’t speak English.

Which is WHY I’ve been steering away from that subject, yet you all somehow missed it even though it’s common sense.

I love how many times “naive”, “ignorant”, “elitist”, “young” (equivalent to ignorant in context) has been thrown around then quickly followed by an uproar of miscommunication! Oh the irony!(That, was me being condescending and an elitist.)

It isn’t that it was easy for me, it’s that the tests and high school in general are easy, period.

Like walking, and breathing. Those are easy things.

Like reading and comprehension. (ironically this thread lacks a lot of that.)

And yet to further exemplify my point that you all missed many times over is that a person who has no legs cannot walk, therefore they are an exception. The same way someone who is blind or cannot speak English cannot read English.

I shouldn’t have to point that out because it’s COMMON SENSE.

Which is why I asked that we not get into the subject of ESL and the like.

You guys, are hilarious. Thank you for the awesome read. (That was also elitism, since you all apparently need some examples as to what it is.)

And yes, I was consciously being a dick as this post progressed because you guys seem to make a point to get all flustered over nothing anyhow. I mean really, I’m 17, don’t you guys have better things to do then totally mis-understand things I post on the internet? And then attempt to break my morale with your sad attempts at condescending maturity?

Granted you all made some valid points, but some of you need to take your own advice and stop trying to argue over the internet about something that has already been addressed whether directly and you somehow missed it or because it was common sense.

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[Anonymous]

Caduceus, I don’t know enough about this topic to weigh in, but I think it’s great that a 17 yo is on here holding your own. It can be difficult to not take things personally, and words often sound harsher in print than in person. Don’t let that discourage from participating. Most of us are pretty decent, we just get passionate sometimes.

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[Caduceus]

Yeah JT I understand.

Especially after reading that Thriftway topic, where two people made good-natured jokes and both mis-understand each other’s motives.

But it is rather obnoxious to attempt to be condescending because they assume I’m naive and ignorant simply because they made a mistake in their comprehension of what I said.

I retaliated a bit and that may have been inappropriate but I’m only 17! Hahahah. :]

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[gambaru]

Caduceus-

With all due respect, don’t you find it a tad bit interesting that several professionals from the field of education who went to college and have made careers longer than your lifetime find your flippant, novice, unresearched remarks rediculous?

It’s quite clear, the chip on your shoulder has to do with being proven wrong and showing compassion for those who are not as successful as you are. Do you have issues with people who weigh more than you because YOU can keep trim so they should be able to as well?

Obviously anything we “professionals” say to you is not going to convince you, so, go out there and study the brain research yourself. Look up Blooms taxonomy, the hierarchy of needs, differentiated instruction, multiple intelligences, and yes, I am going to say it: ESL. Brain research shows children who are raised bilingually, typically have brains that literally operate differently (not better, not worse, just differently). While it gives them a very worth while skill as an adult, grammatically we cannot expect the same things from them as a child who is raised and educated in the same language.

Not to mention the cultural issues that come into play. Parents have a lot more pull on their child’s success in life than prevously thought. The first 3 years of life are key due to, again, brain development. Brain research also shows ethnic groups learn differently. (As an educator, ethnicity is not race, it is the culture in which a child is raised.) You may notice that some of your peers are more mathematical, while others are amazing writers. Some students learn better kinesthetically, while others are extremely adept at navigating social the arena. Don’t under-estimate the importance of being able to relate to others, Caduceus. Studies have shown those who have a better rapport with co-workers are more likely to be promoted.

Standardized tests are normed for a specific demographic. Therefore if you do not fall into that demographic, you are at a disadvantage before you even begin. For example, the “feminine gender” (Gender does not equal sex)is already at a disadvantage when it comes to multiple coice testing.

These are just a few reasons why your “If I did it, everyone else should do it too” mentality doesn’t fly with educators. It is very easy to criticize our education system. A lot is wrong with it. We are under staffed, underfunded, and under appreciated.

The fact that some of your peers cannot read in high school indicates to me, an educator specializing in reading education, there are major learning disabilities getting in the way. The same goes for the inability to grasp positive and negative numbers. The peers you are describing and ranting about seem to be the special needs students you want to make exceptions for…

Therefore, unless you are privy to those specific students’ IEP’s and screening results, I would stop blaming them for lacking in educational inspiration and show some compassion. If you truly care about how they do educationally and in life, that will get them much further than ranting about their failures.

As far as your comment about students with low achievement, “You do not belong in high school. You should be tutoring in all of your free time, you should paying 100% attention not talking about how awesome Grand Theft Auto was, and how you waited outside for 2 hours to get it before anyone else, etc.” — The very definition of a learning disability is “a gap between intelligence and achievement”. Young children all love to go to school at first. It is exciting, interesting, and fun. However as they get older and progress through the grades, the work becomes more demanding and process oriented. Even being able to utilize your fine motor skills can become demanding as students are expected to write on smaller and smaller lines. The gap continues to get bigger and bigger as kids get older. The learning disabled child has an extremely high chance of growing frustrated that they are making little to no progress compared to their peers and begin to resent school. Pile several years on top of that, and adolescent tendencies to rebel (Ahem Caduceus. Pardon me but you were the one who admitted to being a dick for the sake of being a dick.), and you get a student who is checked out of school and has poor skills. Kicking them out to “tutor 100% of the time” will further discourage them and drop out rates will sky rocket. I’m not sure what the current stat is, but the percentage of drop outs ending up in prison is astronomincal. Is that what you are suggesting we do? You want us to kick kids when they are down and punish them for having a learning disability? The best thing we can do as educators is to KEEP them in school, and accomodate their needs as best as possible and take them as far as THEY can go. NOT COMPARE THEM TO HIGH ACHIEVING PEERS! Often times we are working against the tide as by the time they get to high school they have been beaten down by achievement tests, a broken system, and have no motivation left.

The fact that you think your ripe little age of 17 has no bearing on your maturity, life-experience, and therefore your perspective, just illustrates how young, immature, and inexperienced you are.

Many of us have dedicated our lioves and careers to our students’ achievement so don’t be surprised if you offend us with your casual, hollow, surface-level remarks. It is a much more complicated issue than you can comprehend just by resenting your peers who talk about GTA rather than do math homework.

The truth is, you resent that you have been “good” and made responsible decisions by not blowing off your school work while many of your peers have. Well, rest assured little one, you will go to college and will probably earn more long term. Feel better now?

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[hopey]

Wow. A troll already, and just 17!

And here we thought you were genuinely looking for feedback or answers to your questions. Imagine that.

I guess we really are the stupid ones. You’re so smart, you’ll probably go to a Big 10 university, and then you’ll really show me up. Oh. Wait. *I* went to a Big 10 university too. Right.

</sarcasm>

It’s hard for me to believe that a teenager would *bother* to troll here, and on such a banal subject to boot.

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[Caduceus]

Gambaru I understand your point, but you cannot pin every low-achievers poor abilities on a “learning disability”

Coming to class once or twice a week is not a learning disability.

Being clever and putting vodka in a water bottle to drink in class is not a learning disability.

Talking about how much insane amounts of sex you had the weekend before instead of listening to the teacher is not a learning disability.

Yelling at the teacher because she moved you to the front of the class, then storming out like a “badass” is not a learning disability.

Coming to class high on vikadin, pot, x, or oxycotin is not a learning disability.

These things are performed by a gross number of students in schools all over. I’ve been to more schools then I can even remember from the East coast to here on the west side and they ALL have MANY students just like this. (I’m just waiting in anticipation for someone to mis-read this sentence)

To blame the pure ignorance, lack of responsibility and lack of care for their education in general on “Learning disabilities” is completely un-believable. What you are implying is that a huge, grotesque amount of students are basically mentally ill. I’m not sure what school(s) you have worked at, and perhaps the number of utter failures (as in someone who couldn’t care less about school) was low there but generally it is very high everywhere else.

And it is easy for you to look down on these people and (notice the word AND there) expect them to achieve nothing because they’re “mentally ill” when really they just don’t care.

And people who don’t care about school who are nothing but disruptive and come for the social scene DO NOT BELONG THERE.

And yeah, they can go have fun in prison if they want.

I can look down on them, because I expect greatness from everyone. Granted somethings I can do, and other people I see doing everyday may not be easy for some people but it is entirely possible if only they had the drive and will to do it. I can look down on them because they are disappointing and I have to deal with these people daily, and this same disappointing generation until I grow old and die. (refer to my short list of things that are not disabilities)

I’m just going to assume since you’re an educator you don’t spend a lot of time outside of school with these people, which would account for your many “medical statistics” rather then accounts from actual experience.

The majority of students who attend high school ARE NOT mentally ill, they just don’t care. And because they don’t care they don’t learn. And because they haven’t learned they are stupid. And because they are stupid they don’t care that much more and make poor decisions. Which makes them disruptive, obnoxious and rather dissapointing.

They don’t care about school? They can and should leave.

Oh and yes, as a 6 year gymnast who doesn’t sit in front of the television 4 hours a day eating pizza and mcdonalds, I look down on overweight people who eat doritos and ho-ho’s in class while sucking down a mountain dew. But at the same time I know people who have diabetes and from a number of causes are slightly over weight and recognize that their weight is as much under control as it will get.

You again, can continue to bring to play your “years of experience” and you can continue to be mistaken. Your experience in life doesn’t mean your opinion over-rides fact.

The fact that most students don’t care about school. It isn’t that they’re mentally ill, despite what ever poorly gathered statistical results have been given to you which are products of tests and projects you were not given details about.

Aw Hopey, you’re cute.

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[GenHillOne]

Caduceus, did you choose your screen name because you are thinking of going into the medical field? Just curious.

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[Caduceus]

The Caduceus is actually a symbol of Duality and Alchemy.

Representing the ascension to the divine through the tremors caused by the clash of the positive and the negative.

Represented by a winged staff with two serpents ascending upwards in a helix

The Caduceus is confused with the “rod of Asclepius” which was wielded by the Greek god of Medicine.

While the Caduceus was wielded by Hermes Trismegistus and often just Hermes.

I plan on getting my PhD in psychology and opening a non-medicinal practice, because I believe treating mental/emotional illnesses with medicine is silly.

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