WASL/School Standards

[GenHillOne]

I didn’t have them confused myself, but thanks. Good luck with that.

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[Caduceus]

Merci.

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[Anonymous]

I can’t believe you people are coming down on this person!

I think this member is extremely intelligent and, more important, actually CARES about his/her education.

Because he/she lives and breaths the actual lowering of standards, he/she sees it everyday, and then you people tell him/her that he/she doesn’t know what he/she is talking about sounds a little elitist to me.

Caduceus – I hope that you continue your education and achieve your goals. Please, please continue to think for yourself! It is extremely powerful.

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[hopey]

So tell me… is it more important for this person to “think for himself” (or herself) and achieve academic goals, or is it more important for this person to have empathy and understanding of those whose life experience has been different from theirs?

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[Anonymous]

Oh for heaven’s sake!!!!

This person is witness to, everyday at school, their personal educational standards being lowered to allow for a less educated person to succeed.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with having *empathy*!!!

To this person, his/her education is THE most important thing.

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[hopey]

I was not making any judgment about educational standards or who is succeeding or not. I asked a simple question about which is more important.

The motivation behind my question was the distinct lack of empathy and understanding displayed by someone whose self-described goal is to be employed in a field which requires… yes, empathy and understanding.

“Empathy” does not mean “not complaining” or even “not criticizing”. But it does mean showing some amount of understanding of how others’ lives may be different from theirs, and how what appear to be simple choices from this person’s perspective may not, in fact, be simple choices from someone else’s perspective.

I completely agree that the WASL is whack and needs to be fixed. But I am more alarmed by the unflinchingly sophomoric attitude of this young person, especially when they say they want to have a career helping people.

One can, and in my mind *should*, still have empathy even while one is saying that a system is broken and needs to be changed. This person has shown none.

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[Anonymous]

You are jumping to conclusions, hopey, in assuming this person has no empathy.

I do not think you should judge this person and criticize their future goals based on a couple postings on a blog.

It is extremely evident that this person is well educated and actually wants that education (which is more than I can say for a lot of other young people).

I just cannot believe that this young person is jumped on, assigned a lack of empathy, and talked down to when we should be praising this person for speaking their mind. Speaking it very eloquently, at that.

This person should speak their mind. They are obviously very intelligent. This person should see the world around them and come to their own conclusions.

For you to *assume* that this person has no empathy or, furthermore, and even more disturbing, challenge their chosen professional goal, is showing a lack of empathy.

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[hopey]

Please read carefully. I did not say they did not *have* any empathy. I said they did not *display* any empathy, and that concerned me in a person who purportedly wants to help others. I did not say this person should not become a psychologist. I said the lack of empathy displayed *in this thread* was of concern to me. If they had said they intended to become a stockbroker, the empathy point would have been moot.

Also: speaking their mind, in this case, included deliberately “being a dick”. That is their own phrase for how they acted and the things they wrote. Perhaps the “jumping on” happened for a reason?

In internet terms, “deliberately being a dick” == trolling. Yes, very intelligent people troll on message boards. This young person is one of them, whether you want to admit it or not.

You may want to read a little more carefully before you jump in to defend someone who is quite clearly capable of self-defense, since they are so intelligent.

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[gambaru]

New Resident-

You wrote:Because he/she lives and breaths the actual lowering of standards, he/she sees it everyday, and then you people tell him/her that he/she doesn’t know what he/she is talking about sounds a little elitist to me.

–How about the numerous teaching professionals who logged on to explain why his/her theories are misguided? Do you think WE don’t live and breathe and witness these “lowering of standards”? Rather than being a 17 year old with plenty of opinions, we have careers, education, and frankly,more of an inside scoop on the inner-workings of what he/she is talking about. The fact that this child, (I say child not to knock his or her intelligence, but more lack of expertise in this area.) correlates a learning disability with mental illness is an apalling misconception.

He/she also admitted to looking down on fat people simply because they are fat. Where is the compassion and empathy in that? Is that how you would want YOUR child to view the world?

I feel very sorry for this kid. He/she has failed/missed one of the biggest life lessons of all.

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[Caduceus]

NewResident thank you for your kind words! I truly appreciate people who take the time to understand what I’m saying and don’t nit pick at things that should be common sense! You are truly appreciated!

The numerous teaching professionals are just that, teaching professionals. You see the people inside the classrooms, and that’s it.

I see these people everywhere I go, we do the relatively same things, go to the same movies recreate in the same general areas etc.

Your lack of common sense as a “Teaching Professional” astounds me, and how you aren’t comprehending any of the points I’m making is rather disheartening. I mean if I need to behave like a true elitist and just go ahead and assume everyone lacks common sense and the ability of comprehension I could just go and spell out every little thing for you all. But I have faith from having browsed these forums that we have a forum full of intellectuals and people who behave like adults.

My lack of compassion for stupid people, who enjoy being stupid does not make me a bad person, the same way having a lack of compassion for a rapist who enjoys rape does not make me a bad person.

Granted the extremes are different but the concept is the same. Which I again should not have to point out but hey, you guys have said some silly things already.

And my exact quote is “Oh and yes, as a 6 year gymnast who doesn’t sit in front of the television 4 hours a day eating pizza and mcdonalds, I look down on overweight people who eat doritos and ho-ho’s in class while sucking down a mountain dew. But at the same time I know people who have diabetes and from a number of causes are slightly over weight and recognize that their weight is as much under control as it will get.”

If someone makes no effort to be HEALTHY and in-shape, let alone attractive and socially presentable then I am not required to have compassion for them. And I’m certainly not going to stoop so low as to have pity on anyone. Especially since it’s again, common sense that if they wanted to do something about their weight and physical health they would eat better and exercise. And I could try and help them, but again here’s some common sense. You can’t help people who don’t want to be helped, and have no will to help themselves.

There is nothing good about being overweight when you have no medical problems making it so. Therefore I have every right to criticize those people, as a young man who goes out of his way to be in the best physical shape I can with the time I have to do it.

And please, do not generalize my opinions on stupid people, and stretch them as if they are my opinions on every individual thing in the world. Don’t be so childish, this is not your petty argument, this whole thread is simply me correcting your continuous mistakes.

Being a “teaching professional” for however amount of years is not necessarily an achievement because you have not necessarily achieved anything. You can continue to attempt to be condescending but I have surely changed more lives then you. I forgive your silliness simply because I understand you know nothing about me, and how I use my free time. But as an adult and a teaching professional you should surely know better then to behave as you have.

But for some insight, I know a lot of professionals, which allows me to help people with severe problems via re-direction to said people when I am out of my league.

Like drug issues, severe emotional/physical/sexual abuse, general depression, basic guidance and problem solving.

Which I am criticized frequently for being involved in, because I may not know what chemicals encompass depression. But the fact I am capable of recognizing a person’s problems and helping them find ways to solve said problems doesn’t seem to count.

Not counting people I’ve re-directed to seasoned professionals I’ve helped people cold turkey a hand full of drugs from oxy to blow to cigarettes. I’ve kept people from killing themselves I’ve on two occasions been the person someone called when they attempted suicide, rather then 911. I’ve helped people from cutting, helped them direct their general outlook on life to a more positive one, persuaded a few people to call CPS and live with the grandparents/auntsuncles, to excel better in school, to learn to quell their anger etc.

I see people overcome things FAR greater then just a “I could care less” attitude on school every day, therefore I have NO sympathy for people who are in school, but could care less whether or not they graduate with a diploma.

So I do not believe my standards should be lowered for those people.

Again I should not have to point all of this out, because it is fact and common sense. My backround and what I do with my time should not be the deciding point as to who agrees with me or who disagrees.

Again NewResident thank you for being you!

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[wspeeps]

Yikes…

Your future goals are admirable, but your 17 year-old God complex is astounding.

Your complete lack of respect for those who are working in the field of education and mental health is also troubling. Teachers are working with the same populations you are and for you to say that this is not necessarily an achievement is insulting. Educating children in a thankless and often volatile environment is not an achievement???

These people you deal with in your “counseling” were once children too, or are the children of the people you counsel. Again, please just step back see that perspective as well.

And NewResident, no one said this person was not intelligent. Yes this person deals with these “people” everyday, do you not think teachers do as well? Hmmm…who works with students and their parents day in and day out? We are merely encouraging this person to gain a little persepctive and maturity. Time and experience teaches one to be humble and less judgemental…or one hopes it does.

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[Kayleigh]

Caduceus, are you for real or are you a troll?

I’m laughing a little because I remember thinking I knew everything when I was 17, and then around the time I hit my mid-20s, I realized how very little I knew back then. It’s not a slam or a personal failing to be 17…it’s just that a sneaky thing called maturity changes you a lot in your early 20s.

You will get there, too. That is, presuming you are for real.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Komo News had an interview on this very topic this moring. Once again reiterating the fact that the WASL test is not a fair assessment of students with learning disabilities or ESL. Caduceus I think you are a little to smug there with you poor me attitude about having to put up with having these students in your classroom. You are not above them and they have every right to the education that you are receiving. And the WASL test discriminates against them which is awful.

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[Anonymous]

I don’t think Caduceus ever said that people with learning disabilities don’t deserve the same education as he does.

He is simply pointing out that, as a student who takes great interest in his education and WORKS at it, it should not be all for nothing.

Whether all these liberals want to admit it or not, lowering standards to allow for someone less interested in their education to pass, does not aide in the education of those who do want to be challenged.

This goes back to the backwards idea that if you make something *easier* because certain groups are not managing, you will attain success.

I was just surprised that a student who was brave enough to voice his concerns on this forum was responded to in such a way.

I would think that as teachers and educators, it would have been refreshing to see a young person who cares so much about their education. Instead, he has been talked down to and told that he doesn’t know what he is talking about, by TEACHERS!

Of course maturity will come into play as he ages, however, the fact that this young adult is so perceptive and seems to have a good understanding of the world around him is extremely refreshing to me. And I’m not even a teacher.

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[wspeeps]

It is nice that young people are interested in the inner-workings of our school system, but he/she really lacks information in regards to many of these subjects…equating students with learning disabilities to those with mental illnesses??? Scary for someone who wishes to enter the field of psychology…Can you counsel someone out of dyslexia??

The heart of the matter is, as many of us educators would agree, a single test really should not determine whether a student can graduate high school…regardless of how easy some may think it is. As an educator, I am all for expecting more from our students but a single test should dictate four years of hard work. By making this test more difficult it discourage students…we really do not need more high school dropouts.

A few years ago the educational pendulum was moving more towards AUTHENTIC assessment, but with mandates like No Child Left Behind many of this pedagogy has been left behind in order meet the standards of these regulations.

NewResident, it is nice that you are encouraging our youth, but as teachers, we really have a broader viewpoint of this subject. Yes, there are lazy individuals out there, but writing off entire populations of people because of poor choices or attitudes they make when they are young is, indeed, ignorant.

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[Anonymous]

I see we have turned our insulting to me now.

Call me ignorant, but who, exactly, is being helped by lowering the standards of tests?

Oh, the kids that don’t care about their education. I think that’s a fine lesson to be teaching.

Yeah, we know that most high school students don’t care about their education and would rather be anywhere else than inside the classroom, so what should we do?

Oh, here’s a great idea! Let’s make the ability to PASS the test EASIER so that more of these lazy, indifferent students will pass. That will make them feel so much better about not applying themselves and caring about their education! What sort of lesson, exactly, is that teaching our young people?

Don’t you think that maybe they could begin to think if they don’t work hard enough, they can still achieve whatever they want because they’ve never really had to work hard for anything?

Do you realize how much smarter youths are in other countries? Such as China, Sweden (just a couple examples)

No, I’m not a teacher but I was a student and a student that didn’t really care about my education. Back then, they didn’t lower the standards so that I would pass tests and have better self esteem. And, thank goodness they didn’t! Where would I be today if I had been taught that everything should be handed to me and I didn’t actually have to work for anything!?!

You are not doing anyone any favors by doing that. If you just cannot see that or grasp that, then there really would be no question who is ignorant.

Obviously some of the remarks made by this person were immature (I don’t mean that in an insulting way, just that he hasn’t fully experienced life in the way us older people have), but the responses he received from some members on this forum were, in my opinion, unacceptable.

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[Anonymous]

BTW, who ever said anything about writing off entire populations of people?

We were talking about the student that don’t apply themselves and those who do.

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[Anonymous]

If this person is truly 17, they are trying to present themselves as an adult conversing with adults. There are seeking a dialog. Attempting to use language to fit in. I don’t think the expectation is that every word will be attacked and analyzed. There is an assumption that we’ll look for the meaning.

If you re-read the first post, he shared *his* experience and asked for input and other thoughts. He never claimed to be superior or all knowing. His point was that concentrating on passing the WASL was leaving students ill-prepared for higher education. At least in his case. And that without self-education, he would be floundering.

It seemed he was just questioning if there was a better way. Why all the personal attacks? I still think it’s a good thing that he’s trying to converse. Why can’t we try back? And Caduceus, I’m very fat because of illness not allowing me to exercise. I don’t eat junk food. I look fully functioning when I’m out in public and am someone you would assume to be lazy. I am not. So be careful who you judge. I’ll stop defending you :)

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[Anonymous]

JT is not *very fat*. I just wanted to clear that up.

I agree with JT’s post. I actually noticed, in Caduceus’ first post, he was asking if there was something HE and like-minded students could do to improve the way this testing is handled.

He was simply looking for suggestions on a way that he could maybe improve his and his peers educational experience.

Then, he was very quickly challenged and then attacked. I’m not surprised by his responses.

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[bcollins]

Wow…I think the WASL is great. Like any standard…there needs to be refinements and adjustments. I think dropping the math or science ( I don’t recall) was a mistake. The fact is that public education ( something the U.S. fostered as a concept initially I believe) was meant to ensure a level and common understanding and ability to achieve. This is obviously only possible to a point.

I think our Asian and European world patners are all very comfortable with setting minimum expectations of achievement. Why can’t we? Sure, tune it, but don’t through the education out with the high school graduate (kinda lame play on the bath water thing).

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[Caduceus]

JT and NewResident clearly understand what I’m saying, so I’ll stop correcting those who appear to be missing my points since I am obviously getting across to people just fine!

And JT my point was that if your weight isn’t under your control I understand that and I don’t judge those people. I have family members who suffer from various forms of diabetes and.. I forget what it’s called but something about lymph nodes….?

And being judgmental is not an entirely bad thing, if you ran around accepting everything everyone did there would be a lot more perversion, violence, harassment (all forms), poor attitudes etc in the world. A judgmental and aware society recognizes and chastises the things that are not acceptable, and letting your body go to waste when you have NO medical issues making it so is not acceptable.

Oh and JT if your first few sentences were in contrast to my language, this is how I speak. Although I use commas poorly, I just put them in where I would make audible pauses! :P

Thank you again for your support, and actually taking the time to read all these walls and walls of text! :]

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[littlebrowndog]

Caduceus

IF you truly exist as a 17 year old (who appears to have limitless time and talent to accomplish virtually everything in life from great application to studies to gymnastic prowess to incredible peer supporter, whatever it is that anyone questions you have the ability and maturity to do), as a professional working in the mental health field you really scare me. Your tough love approach could work for a small segment, but heaven help a person who actually does have mental illness or a learning disability (two very different things). As a person with lived experience with mental illness and a nationwide trainer of others with that lived experience to become peer support specialists focusing on wellness and recovery, you would be exactly the type of psychologist that we would dismiss as destructive and out of touch with reality. IF you actually exist as the person you describe, I can only hope the years of education would temper your many misbeliefs. The personality you display worries me about that happening.

As for attacking a child who is brave enough to post here, if you want to run with the big dogs….

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[Anonymous]

LBD, I totally agree with you about the mental health issue. Sounded a little Scientology like and I didn’t want to get into that. Hoping the same as you, that education would correct those misconception. My comments refer to the original topic of WASL only.

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[GenHillOne]

A lot of different issues are tangled up in this thread! What is most disturbing to me about the original poster, and actually not the first post, but content in the subsequent follow-up, is the lack of compassion – elitist, judgmental, naiveté, whatever you want to call it. I’m not a social service or teaching professional (tipping my hat to you), but it seems like there is always something going on under the surface with students who are struggling. With anyone really; haven’t we all met the egomaniacal jerk who is really compensating for his/her own insecurities?

My 6th grader (at the time) had an assignment to interview classmates and then present introductions. In this one classroom, there were parents in prison, siblings who had been shot, and clear tales of struggles to make ends meet. It prompted an immediate discussion at home about the real world, one that has continued to this day. These situations don’t mean one is doomed to failure, of course, but they certainly can complicate things.

Whether it’s the office egomaniac, the classmate making poor choices, or the lady living out of her shopping cart, there’s more to it than what can be seen on the surface. If Caduceus is for real, and not just taking us all for a ride, I’m going to believe that there are contributing experiential factors there as well. I’m going to try to practice compassion for what may be under the surface and for what, potentially painful, realizations may be coming down the road.

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[Anonymous]

*I’m going to try to practice compassion for what may be under the surface and for what, potentially painful, realizations may be coming down the road.*

GHO, from the posts I’ve read, you seem to practice this all the time. One of the most decent posters on the forum.

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[Author]

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