Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Two soldiers assassinated while at work (1 killed, 1 injured).
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June 1, 2009 at 8:20 pm #591079
TheHouseMemberTwo U.S. soldiers, a long-time target of leftwing hate-mongers in this country, were assassinated as they worked in a Little Rock, AR recruiting office. As usual, the groups which painted targets on their back, deplored the killing.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/arkansas.recruiter.shooting/index.html
Their recruiting office was utilized for people to join the military along with other services. That made him them the enemy and when fighting the military in court failed, other means were used.
If you think the left’s rhetoric of hate is not dangerous; if you laugh at Al Franken & Bill Maher and his clones, think again.
This is not an intellectual excercise; this is a war that has not ended.
Get the point?
June 1, 2009 at 8:30 pm #668497
JoBParticipantTheHouse…
ok.. i get the point you are trying to make…
but not being a reader of right wing hate blogs i am having difficulty understanding the logic behind your point.
two soldiers were killed in a drive by shooting so this has to be the result of hate crimes by left wing groups?
if there are left wing groups that advocate killing soldiers, i honestly don’t know about them… nor would i want to.
I can’t think of a single left wing pundit of any note who advocates killing soldiers or regularly labels soldiers in a way that would rationalize murdering them.
Even at it’s worst many decades ago, left wing sentiment might have labeled soldiers as baby killers, but didn’t advocate murdering them.
Now.. Dick Cheney might be a different matter these days… but i suspect even he is in more danger of international courts seizing him if he travels abroad than of an assassins bullet here.
you don’t note that the comments made by Al Franken and Bill Maher were made in the context of comedy presentations. Or that Al Franken has not made any comment that could be construed in any way as putting a target on soldiers since he realized he had political ambitions.. which has been quite a while now. I don’t watch Bill Maher so i don’t know how recent his comments are….
I will admit that comedy has a huge impact… i think comedy is the most effective way to introduce new ideas to the public forum… but our comedians joke to make you think.. they don’t tell you how or what to think.
Bill O’Reilly on the other hand styles himself as the voice of the right… as do most of the hate spewing right wing pundits. They do tell people what to think and why they should think it and i am pretty sure they couldn’t be mistaken for comedians.
I think you will have to connect more dots if you want to make this point.
BTW..
June 1, 2009 at 8:37 pm #668498
charlabobParticipantOf course we get the point. It’s a misguided point, drawing nonexistent parallels, but those of us who do follow the right wing media recognize the stale old tactic. Followers will think it’s “right on” and continue to listen to the hate mongers who lead them.
Folks on the right will continue to avoid talking about issues in pursuit of simplistic verbiage that energizes their shrinking base.
JoB provided an excellent, logical rebuttal, for those who are interested in logic.
June 1, 2009 at 8:45 pm #668499
austinMemberA few years back I got a phone call from a recruiter at an office on Jackson. He informed me that they might be interested in recruiting me, and I made it clear that I wasn’t interested in military service. The recruiter proceeded to tell me to get out of “his” country, to which I replied by calling him a racist. He broke down and told me that he had a computer with my address in it, and a military issued firearm. He threatened to come to my house and kill me because I wasn’t fit to live in “his” America. The guy never showed but it was a testament to how much stress they put those poor people under.
June 1, 2009 at 8:52 pm #668500
JoBParticipantBTW…
the comment i seem to have mistakenly edited is that i am glad they have a suspect in custody and want to know why he shot these soldiers.
I am confident he will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
I am pretty sure that if the motivation is revealed to be in any way political there won’t be any posts from the regular crowd of WSB left wing pundits rationalizing his behavior… and i would be astonished to see any posts rationalizing his behavior from any left wing pundits.
Contrary to right wing rhetoric, you can support the troops without supporting the war.
My left wing bumper sticker reads…
Honor the Dead
Heal the Wounded
End the War
I don’t support drive by shootings of any kind… and find it a very sad reflection on our society that soldiers could survive Iraq and fall to violence on our streets.
I suspect those two soldiers would not appreciate being made the tools of political rhetoric…
after all, they committed to defending their country and apparently believed enough in it to participate in recruitment efforts.
June 1, 2009 at 8:55 pm #668501
JoBParticipantaustin..
that is a sad tale.. sad for the young man whose frustration got the better of him.
June 1, 2009 at 11:32 pm #668502
datamuseParticipantI would have an easier time taking the comparison made here seriously if military recruiting centers were routinely subjected to the kinds of displays regularly seen outside of women’s health clinics.
I used to live across the street from the Aradia Women’s Health Center on First Hill. The morning that I was awakened by protesters marching down the street with a bullhorn was extra special.
June 2, 2009 at 12:17 am #668503
JoBParticipantdatamuse…
i doubt theHouse takes this seriously, This is just an attempt to provoke…
but ignoring these kinds of comments doesn’t make them go away… it only desensitizes and makes it more and more acceptable to make ever escalating claims built on the original false innuendos.
Letting the right wing set the agenda has spiraled into knee jerk reactionary rhetoric instead of conversation.
Ignoring it hasn’t worked. Trying to argue it hasn’t worked. Maybe just calling bull will.
Either way, it’s a win win situation for me:)
June 2, 2009 at 12:31 am #668504
CaitParticipantYes, I’m sure these young men (whose political views you don’t know) would enjoy their tragedy being used as fodder in a pro-choice/pro-life fight. Nice. It’s just tasteless and it’s unrelated to say the least.
Both instances were people being killed by political radicals because of what they do for a living – NOT to be condoned in any sense, for any reason. And very sad in both instances.
June 2, 2009 at 12:40 am #668505
JoBParticipantthis is so much sadder than the original reports…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_recruiters_shot
and not surprisingly.. had nothing to do with internal American politics…
but i suspect it did have to do with righteous anger manipulated by someone else for their own ends… anther example of the end result of the constant drivel of hate filled innuendo.
June 2, 2009 at 1:22 am #668506
TheHouseMemberCait, you got my point in your second paragraph.
I was illustrating how insane it was to post something like what was posted yesterday. I do not believe in my original post, it was simply a cut & paste from the original posting of the abortion doctor with the terms “right” changed to “left”.
June 2, 2009 at 1:35 am #668507
JoBParticipantTheHouse…
except.. the abortion doctor was killed by an abortion rights extremist who posted on the major abortion rights blogs…
and his act was the physical extension of the rhetoric of Bill O’Reilly and others (Republican right wing political pundits) who didn’t find the issue itself inflammatory enough and chose to target this particular doctor… using innuendos and lies to dehumanize him… and make a living target of him.
And.. this had nothing to do with the left… not just because the gunman wasn’t a left wing nut job but because the left has not singled out soldiers to villify… unless those soldiers have been convicted in a court of law for atrocities..
And.. there isn’t a single poster here justifying the gunning down of these two soldiers… who were just raw recruits.. kids… who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
But.. except for all that.. it’s just the same…
In your haste to make your point you neglected to consider the facts… but I can understand why. Facts aren’t considered essential in the harangues of most of right wing pundit’s you quote … are they?
June 2, 2009 at 9:20 pm #668508
Sky2625MemberTheHouse-
What an interesting word experiment. You and JoB are absolutely right: using that kind of logic and rhetoric, no matter what point you’re arguing, seems ridiculously stupid.
JoB-
You argue that the murder of Dr. Tiller is DIFFERENT than the attack on Pvts. Long and Etzeagwula:
Your Reason #1: The suspect in Dr. Tiller’s case blogged about his political views.
Your Reason #2: Dr. Tiller’s murder, in your mind, is a the physical extension of O’Reilly rhetoric.
Your Reason #3: The attack on the soldiers wasn’t a left-wing hit job because the left doesn’t do that; they only vilify soldiers that have been found guilty.
Your Reason #4: No poster on WSB has argued for the death of the soldiers (this implies a poster has argued for the death of Dr. Tiller).
My Response to #1: Prosecutors believe the Little Rock attack had “political and religious” motivations, just as, I’m assuming the attck on Dr. Tiller did. That one suspect did blog and the other did not, does not change the fact that both crimes were politically motivated.
My Response to #2: Show me Bill O’Reilly’s statement that most closely approaches calling for the murder of abortion doctors. That’s not the O’Reilly I know. O’Reilly’s rhetoric gets as close to this heinous act as your feelings about war does to the Little Rock killings. (i.e. not close at all). A pundit’s criticism of an idea does not make that pundit responsible for a lone actor’s choice.
My Response to #3: Again, back to the Haditha marines. Before there was a trial, Rep. Murtha denounced them for murder in cold blood, Time magazine alleged a massacre, Salon Magazine alleged a cover-up, and consortiumnews.com compared it to My Lai. The left DOES villify soldiers before a trial, but IT DOESN’T MATTER ANYWAY, because again, opposition/criticism does not create murders.
My Response to #4: Whether a poster argues for murder in one case and not for another, does not make one case different from the other, or less disgusting, heinous, or tragic. (I haven’t gotten to the thread on Dr. Tiller’s murder yet…I hope no one there cheered his death).
The suspects in both murder cases chose to pursue an extreme course of action they felt was justified by their own dearly held opinions.
Though the media may not cover these cases equally, I’d hope that Americans would find these murders equally horrifying, disappointing, and disgusting.
June 2, 2009 at 11:21 pm #668509
TheHouseMemberThank you, Sky. Well put.
June 3, 2009 at 4:12 am #668510
JoBParticipantsjy2625..
TheHouse may be not be thanking you for long.
The murder of Dr Tiller was the targeted murder of a specific individual who the suspect had repeatedly threatened in internet postings because he performed legal abortions.
Dr Tiller was brought to the attention of the suspect by websites such as Operation Rescue (where the suspect posted) and by right wing pundits such as O’Reilly… who immediately deplored his murder.
Following his murder.. the founder of Operation Rescue and myriad other posters on the internet (i think it is safe to assume they are mostly US citizens) have applauded his murderer for delivering justice to the babies Dr Tiller aborted.
On the other hand…
the soldiers who were shot (one of them was killed) were not targeted as individuals. There were no posts specifically threatening their lives.
As far as i know, there was no organized campaign to harass, assault or otherwise terrify recruiters (other than those on known terrorist websites) … and no posts by the suspect threatening either these individuals or recruiters in general with bodily harm.
Specifically, there were no “left wing” websites or political pundits calling all soldiers or soldiers who work at recruiting offices murderers and advocating bodily harm towards them.
I only mention that because of TheHouse’s original post “Two U.S. soldiers, a long-time target of leftwing hate-mongers in this country, were assassinated as they worked in a Little Rock, AR recruiting office. As usual, the groups which painted targets on their back, deplored the killing.”
And there is no flurry of posts stating that the soldiers should have been murdered…
The same.. not so much.
In fact.. the only similarity between the two murders rests on the assumption that the suspect who murdered Dr Tiller was a member of a terrorist organization and that his murder was terrorism. I have read that the suspect in custody is being prosecuted for terrorism.
If you are willing to stipulate that Dr Tiller’s murder was terrorism.. then there is a similarity in the two deaths…
other than that… bupkis
June 3, 2009 at 4:25 am #668511
TheHouseMemberI’d say she still doesn’t get it folks.
June 3, 2009 at 5:29 am #668512
HMC RichParticipantPunk’d
This is what I was talking about in the other thread. The rhetoric and words are or can be taken as inflammatory. The guilt lies with the killers. There are extenuating circumstances for every instance. No one is innocent (well some are but lets leave them out this). Let’s think good thoughts for the people who have lost loved ones.
June 3, 2009 at 5:47 am #668513
JoBParticipantTheHouse…
it equally clear you don’t get it.
While there was an established pattern of the murder of doctors who perform abortions after they have been identified and vilified by left wing pundits… by people who are involved in the anti-abortion cause… before the post about Dr Tiller’s murder …
there had been no such pattern of murders of soldiers attributed to “leftists” before you posted to try to make the point that the OP on the thread about Dr Tiller’s murder was being reactionary.
It is not reactionary to recognize a pattern and comment on the likelihood of an event following that pattern.
Dr Tiller was the last in a long line of murders of abortion doctors … a movement promoted by the right wing pundits of the republican party by naming and targeting specific individuals for harassment and violence… individuals who are then murdered by people highly involved in the anti-abortion movement.
The soldier killed was not the last in a long line of murders… regardless of your implications and i certainly hope it does not become the first of many.
There have not been other drive by shootings of soldiers outside recruiting offices that I am aware of … and had there been.. you have had to name terrorists.. not leftists.
nor was he killed by people highly involved in any movement promoted by pundits of the left wing of the democratic party…
You can go ahead and continue trying to make this seem like just another example of reactionary rhetoric by left wing posters…
but as someone who has family members in the military.. whose great-grandbaby’s father is serving in Iraq tonight… I would appreciate it if you had more respect for our military.
I don’t consider the murder of a soldier.. on American soil or otherwise… appropriate material for satire.
Your point doesn’t stand up to a factcheck…
and it is tasteless at best.
June 3, 2009 at 5:26 pm #668514
JoBParticipantHMCRich…
here is the quandry…
how do you stop the rhetoric of those who single out individual abortion doctors by publicly labeling them murderers.. comparing what they do to Hitler’s extermination camps… purposefully misrepresenting the medical care they offer… how do you make the point that those actions lead to murder without saying anything that will be considered inflammatory to those who have bought the rhetoric?
If this had anything to do with reason… this wouldn’t be happening.
These are doctors… not public figures at all until someone with political motivation targets them…
do you really think it is ok for anyone to publicly dehumanize individuals and make them a target for those who believe violence is the answer when they are performing legal services?
That is the nicest way to put what O’Reilly and other right wing pundits have done to individual abortion doctors.
In the south.. this kind of socially acceptable hatred towards someone for no other reason than the color of their skin led otherwise reasonable people to torture and kill neighbors.
This kind of rhetoric.. singling out individuals and subjecting them to harassment at best… and condoning their murder… all in the name of the sanctity of life is not reasonable.. no matter how you feel about abortion.
Now.. how is it possible for me to say that to someone who honestly believes that Dr Tiller was a monster because that is what the representatives they believed in told them… without them feeling I am inflammatory?
The real joke if there is one in all of this is that this kind of hate filled rhetoric got as bad as it is because too many of us didn’t want to further inflame those who listen to it by challenging them… because we tried to find common ground.
We have found common ground on the abortion issue. The abortions at Dr Tiller’s clinic would meet the standards that the majority of Americans feel should be met for an abortion… the standards that currently comprise abortion law.
And still… a doctor who performs those abortions was shot down in front of his church to the delight of much of the anti-abortion community …
If we can’t speak about why this is happening without being inflammatory… how are we supposed to stop the murders of these doctors?
There have been too many fitting the same pattern to write them off as random tragedies.
June 3, 2009 at 5:40 pm #668515
HMC RichParticipantTragedy is the key word. I can answer later but not now. I have to work
June 3, 2009 at 6:09 pm #668516
clark5080ParticipantJune 3, 2009 at 6:31 pm #668517
JoBParticipantclark5080…
do you think it is possible that one of the reasons the attack against the abortion doctor is getting so much coverage is the rush on the part of abortion activists to not only justify the murder but applaud it?
Or maybe it is because that murder fits an already established pattern of domestic terrorism in the United States that needs to be exposed and ended?
and do you think it is possible that the White House is holding off on comments about the attack on the soldiers until more information is gathered?
It is possible that the suspect’s computer or known associates are leading investigators to other urban terrorists with other lists?
The moment soldiers were targeted and lists found this became a matter of national security. Could the current silence actually be in the interests of national security?
the implication that the white house is silent because these were soldiers is really stretching it to find a way to blame the left for what is clearly an act of terrorism against the United States.
At what point in all of this does reason kick in?
At what point do we figure out that there might be more at stake here in both killings than finding political advantage?
I did notice that even this article called both shootings acts of terrorism…
It’s too bad they chose to find a way to blame the white house instead of examining the terrorist organizations who inflamed and nurtured the “believers” who chose murder.
That could have been a useful conversation.
June 3, 2009 at 7:28 pm #668518
charlabobParticipantJoB may be right about the background — they’re investigating this guy for additional federal charges– he was traveling in Yemen on a Somalia passport. BUT there is no excuse for the WH not expressing sympathy at the deaths. They wouldn’t have to go into detail. It’s a gross stupid oversight and it shouldn’t have happened.
(I just posted a comment on whitehouse.gov saying “what were you (not) thinking?)
It’s ridiculous to say they purposely ignored it because the victims were soldiers — but that’s exactly the kind of rhetoric we get when we screw up. And this was a giant screw-up. Freepers and other rightists are all over it today — “more proof that Obama is a terrorist.” Especially since he’s traveling in Arab countries today.
June 3, 2009 at 9:42 pm #668519
HMC RichParticipantThe White House did make a mistake. There are tons of people, especially from the right, but others from the left, who will jump all over them.
The mainstream news networks were late coming to party on this one too.
I will be starting a new thread that I think both left and right will be working together.
June 4, 2009 at 4:08 am #668520
TheHouseMemberJob, I as well as many other people on here tolerate your long rants but you stand corrected.
I would never disrespect a serviceman or servicewoman and certainly was not attempting to do so in my original post. The intent was to point out the irony of the original post about Tiller. It is a horrendous shame that someone murdered and attempted to murder two innocent soldiers. That doesn’t mean that people should remain tight lipped.
Example: I disagree with anyone that calls Dr. Tiller a great man (and they did in the other topic), but I never told that person to refrain from speaking their mind.
Bottom line….the people that murdered Tiller and the soldiers were wrong to do so. They both should be tried and prosecuted accordingly and the “left” and “right” have nothing to do with it…..even Bill O’Reily.
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