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October 4, 2011 at 2:15 pm #735851
kootchmanMemberInterestingly enough, meat consumption is rising in China. Most advancing developing nations first imports are animal protein. Because of our grain resources…we produce the cheapest poultry in the world…Rapidly. Their commercial fishing fleet is largely responsible for the clean sweeping of Somalia waters of fish. They are now working the coast of West Africa. What China has lots of is labor. China has serious resource issues. Only 18 per cent of the Chinese land mass is arable. Agriculture land is in short supply. Grain fed meats are a large Chinese import. In fact, one of their major foreign policy machinations has been development aid in exchange for long tern agricultural land leases. In short, China is a net food importer. Dude, I have been there..they eat anything that doesn’t eat them first. I drove American cars in the 70’s.. they were pieces of shit. Japan kicked our ass in quality. You are wrong on that score…we were paying premiums for Hondas.. and Beemers hit big right around that time too. The Mazda 626 in 1978 ran circles around anything Detroit had… and Japan had the best 4 and 6 cylinder engines in the world. You will recall the first oil embargo was in 1973.. all Detroit had were V-8’s…Japan was ready with fuel efficient cars. You never drove a Chrysler “K” car I bet…the Detroit answer to Japan…China does not have oil. It has large coal reserves, but is oil short. Funny you should mention Buick… for some crazy ass reason it is “the status brand” of the moment, in China. Maybe Tiger Woods endorsements? It wasen’t a zero sum game…Japan builds more cars in the USA today than any other country in the world. UAW workers dude.
I am a free trader dude. I want to buy what I want to buy. I will never again buy a GM or Chrysler product…ever. Not after the bail out scheme. I am not an “unfair” trader though. If American cars have to meet EPA and CAFE standards… so should everyone else. And they do… China produces more GM cars than Detroit..but they can’t come over here because the Chinese insist on using their engines…which can;t meet USA standards.. but they are coming. We should NOT allow imports that do not meet safety standards…and we don’t… ask Home Depot … they got creamed with lawsuits over Chinese drywall and non UL listed electrical cord… but they should never have made it past the docks.. If we regulate our coal industry emissions, then yes, I would agree that in order to do business here…China would have to meet carbon emission standards there too… and export products would have to come from emission regulated plants. In the case of CalPortland… that is the state of WA fault… they are ignoring LEEDS guidelines … and there is no way in hell we should allow any products in from any country where a USA business is regulated to environmental standards and a foreign competitor is not. Again you don’t read… I said… the great depression was extended because every nation scrambled to erect tariffs… the same thing you are now suggesting… and the international trade engine came to a halt. ..I said it PROLONGED the depression and every economist recognizes that. It would take a world war to pull us out.. Here’s an ironic twist for ya… WE had an oil embargo against Japan… (we were the OPEC of the day) .. the decision to attack the USA was to prevent the US Fleet from interfering with captured oil fields in Indonesia, and the Dutch East Indies. In this time and era… conservatives, liberals, have some things in common, I agree with environmental regulation… as long as we do not put American business at risk by exempting other nations from the same.
October 5, 2011 at 2:01 pm #735852
redblackParticipantas long as we do not put American business at risk by exempting other nations from the same.
i’ll agree with you there…
as long as american business doesn’t hurt or remove american jobs by using cheap foreign labor.
EPA standards, safety standards, trade balances, and workers’ compensation should all carry the same weight when we negotiate trade deals. and i don’t believe we should be rushing to meet second- and third-world wages. quite the opposite. we should be pushing business to increase foreign wages.
you have to keep in mind that free trade for cheap foreign goods has had a negative impact on wages – not just here, but in countries that don’t have strong labor laws.
October 5, 2011 at 8:55 pm #735853
kootchmanMemberWages are just like any other commodity. If there is lots of it, in plentiful supply, easy to get to.. it will be cheap. That is something you can’t legislate. You have the solution redblack… collective bargaining. Funny how American labor unions which control the shipping and docks..they sure keep mum on the subject. I would support a pro-active union action that said “hey”.. we are not offloading ships from countries that will not allow labor to organize. Rare, skilled, labor is doing fine…if you have a MS in engineering or computer science.. what depressed wages? But as this thread started… good luck.. your very own state is supporting cheap labor, eco-disaster trade policy, and unemployment. like I said..they will slap a huge fine for an open campfire.and ignore the whale in the room. What happened to the states SUSTAINABLE growth goals? Then to add insult to the injury.. my taxes and my tolls are used by the state to support lost jobs, ecological avoidance, .. and they wonder where cynicism comes from? I don’t even want to hear the word “green” anymore..it’s a charade. There is no credibility in the environmental movement, particularly WA state.
October 6, 2011 at 2:59 pm #735854
redblackParticipantlike the UAW has no say over what they build, kootch, longshoremen and stevedores have no say over what they move. they’re just happy to have jobs and a waiting list for entry into their union, no matter which way those containers are moving. i appreciate the sentiment, but refusing work based on trade policy would violate their contract and subject them to firings.
and look up the term “greenwashing.” this is nothing new. lefties have been complaining about it for decades. just another industry making a buck based on consumers’ fears. entire PR firms are dedicated to making companies look “green,” whether they are or not.
fine for private industry – they lie through their teeth and would sell nude pictures of their grandmothers if it makes shareholders a buck or two – but i have to agree with you that it’s not okay for the state to claim LEED-silver is the standard, then use something that isn’t LEED-silver, hoping no one looks closely enough.
here’s another example of greenwashing related to detroit’s masochism: the new chevy volt. for one thing, i thought that thing was going to be the first american-made plug-in all-electric car. nope. in breezes nissan with the leaf. rolled it out in – what? – six months?
big drum roll! sloooow roll-out. slick marketing. “the chevy volt going to be great, so it’s going to take us a while… and it’ll be expensive…”
then i see a commercial for chevy volt yesterday. the thing is just another gas-electric hybrid.
fizzle.
i guess big oil isn’t going to give up without a fight. and detroit will just claim that it’s what consumers want and go back to blaming the UAW for management’s greed and ineptitude.
October 6, 2011 at 9:49 pm #735855
kootchmanMemberGreenwashing..never heard the term… new one on me.
The VOLT is an Obama creation.. GM management wanted to dump it. But…. as part of the bail out scheme it has legs. Remember your dollars.. GE promised Obama they would buy 50,000 of them…IF he extended the wind turbine subsidy program .. which GE makes of course. In return GE also got the tax rebate for 7800 per car. The volt was unsellable… GE wind turbines too expensive and not cost effective… sooooooo now we have TWO tax loopholes… decreasing federal revenue…which increases OUR taxes… the VOLT is a turkey and isn;t selling. The market makes the choices..consumer demand didn’t move even with the $ 7,800 tax incentive.. remember Solyndra?
Like I said… the worst decision maker about consumers is the federal government. I am fine with air and water pollution controls… as long as everyone plays with the same rule book. That is fair trade.
Yea, I know they unload what is in front of them… but that is what collective bargaining is about right? Unions got in all kinds of business unrelated to job and work conditions… like I said WHEN they were a social movement AND improving the social fabric…then they were admired and supported. As they became corrupt and self serving.. union support vaporized in the public eye… the numbers speak for themselves. Without Davis Bacon the trades would be de-unionized. They serve no purpose other than to increase costs to the consumer/taxpayer. They need to find out how they can be socially relevant.. not socially held in contempt… they are losing the PR war. Offloading ships from tyranical countries is no different than a picket line crossing..
I went online for the McDermott web town meeting…WHAT A FARCE! I think I know where he is stuffing his war chest…love to see that donor list… wanna guess some comes from the aforementioned company? He was plugging a state bank… saying ND was the “gem” of the country. 3.2 unemployment rate..inferring a sate run bank was the source of this great boom….well, ND has had a state bank for 100 years … it sorta didn;t include the oil boom .. pure farce.
Progressive he ain’t BS’r he is…
October 7, 2011 at 1:29 am #735856
kootchmanMemberI am out of it..probably just another backroom deal with bigger implications. It is an end run around the EPA mercury and co2 regulations.
http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/mercury-cement-47012002
“google” cement plant pollution.. double whammy coal fired plants are mercury emitters… and so is the cement. Elki… now ya know
October 7, 2011 at 4:23 am #735857
redblackParticipantkootch: so which way do you want it?
is GM a government-run company?
or is GM a virtuous company fighting the shackles of state control?
to put it politely, i think that you’re so full of beans that your eyes are brown.
when it comes to the american markets, GM’s motives are the same as the oil industry’s.
October 7, 2011 at 10:59 am #735858
kootchmanMemberredblack….I won’t buy a GM car ever. GM is now a government run company. Ir was “saved: from bankruptcy because in a bankruptcy proceedings ALL the assets and liabilities are tossed into the air. The bankruptcy court abrogates all the contracts. The company has to submit a reorganization plan and a trustee is appointed. What was killing GM were the union benefits.. wages and benefits cost over 6000 per vehicle. They have the highest cost structure in the industry. Most certainly in a bankruptcy court, they would have approved union contract do overs. As you admitted the “Cadillac Health Plans” that were granted exemptions from Obamacare. So, I as a taxpayer picked up the tab. The GM bailout gave the US government 1/3 of the stock. We are the largest shareholders. Chrysler was sold to Fiat… we got that money back. But GM is still losing money … it is selling at (last I looked) 22 per share. It needs to rise to 54 in order to for the taxpayer to break even. This was a union payoff from Obama. I wish it WAS fighting government control, but..the Obama car czar is sitting on the board….with veto power. Ford, a better run company, with cost controls, did not accept bailout money, This is no different that the bank bailouts on Wall Street. Both were major democratic campaign contributors.. the net effect… the taxpayer loses, GM and the UAW didn’t lower their unit costs and are in as bad a shape as the day they were bailed out… proven by the fact that no one will buy their shares. Private companies should be allowed to fail and succeed .. we have seen the government mess around in private markets and we got…. a housing collapse, a Wall street collapse and bail out, bad “green” investments, Solyndra, and a GM temporary bailout that cost us billions… I merely mentioned GM produces cars overseas in China and can’t import them domestically because they have to obey pollution controls and safety crash tests..which their Chinese manufacturing can’t pass. I am consistant. Man, you just don’t get or won’t look at , the big picture. I support air quality, clean water, as LONG AS those costs are not shifted to ONLY American companies. Mercury is so toxic, especially to kids.. so EPA put new regs in place… I have no problem with it. Some plants closed…some plants refitted and upgraded, some new plants were built…. but we didn’t put the same cost burdens on foreign companies… that is NOT fair trade.. that is stupid. Not one single car can be sold in the USA that does not meet crash/safety tests, or does not meet EPA standards. If they do… let em’ in and let the consumer decide. Too complicated for ya?
October 7, 2011 at 1:46 pm #735859
JoBParticipantkootch…
“if you have a MS in engineering or computer science.. what depressed wages?”
really? only for the lucky few.
I live in that world with a family that gravitates toward engineering and hard sciences and a hubby with a long history in advanced computer science engineering.
My daughter just earned a PhD in soils engineering from one of the top schools in the world for her field (Virginia Tech) after taking time off from school to gather a decade or so of real work experience in some of the top geotech firms in the nation. She mentored with one of the top geotech computer modelers in the United States and is considered more than proficient in that cutting edge techonology.
She presented cutting edge work at international conferences and is on speaking terms with the top geotech people in the world.
she is pretty much as well credentialed as it gets, has real world work experience with both small geotech projects and large projects including dams, levies and tunnels, has supervised and mentored others and is proficient in the latest technology.
She landed her “dream” job this year just before defending her thesis….
and still makes less than my daughter-in-law with no college eduction who works in marketing at microsoft.
It is amazing the number of assumptions that drive these discussions that don’t stand up in the real world where people live and work and educate themselves at every opportunity so that they can pursue the careers of their dreams.
October 7, 2011 at 2:01 pm #735860
JoBParticipantI for one am tired of ignoring the erroneous assumptions and prejudices built into these conversations.
Setting the agenda for a conversation is a lot like what passes for research these days. You have to look at the underlying assumptions before you can even begin to question the validity of the conclusions drawn from the data.
I am done letting engineered talking points set the agenda.
conversation implies that there is an actual exchange of information.
this winner takes all macho belly bumping point for point that simply moves on to another talking point when actually challenged on facts or substance is little more than an exercise in self congratulation.
October 7, 2011 at 11:38 pm #735861
redblackParticipantOctober 7, 2011 at 11:44 pm #735862
kootchmanMemberWell..dunno what to say… MDU is looking for 5 geo engineers right now…
October 7, 2011 at 11:47 pm #735863
kootchmanMemberI guess god bless MS eh? The point is their are job out there … and I know HS dropouts who a multi millionaires…but there are damn few unemployed geo engineers…
October 8, 2011 at 12:12 am #735864
redblackParticipantyeah? and i know scores of good construction workers who are flat on their backs. what do you tell them? go get a job at microsoft?
October 8, 2011 at 1:37 am #735865
elikapekaParticipantKootchman, just curious – why would you refuse to buy from GM or Chrysler because of the bailouts and yet continue to do business with BOA, as you mentioned on the debit fee thread? They got bailed out too – what’s the difference to you?
October 8, 2011 at 3:01 am #735866
kootchmanMemberYea..too many years of doing biz with them.. commercial line of credit, checking and savings accounts… sorta tied to them by virtue of longevity. Same with my e-mail account… same with Keybank. In this wacko finance world, if you apply for a cc… they down peg your credit score. No redblack I don’t. The trades have always been full of ups and downs. This has been too gruesome too long.
October 8, 2011 at 4:04 am #735867
JanSParticipantOctober 8, 2011 at 5:12 pm #735868
redblackParticipanti feel bad for my brothers and sisters in the UAW, but i won’t buy a GM or chrysler for different reasons:
1. mismanagement
2. the most inefficient vehicle fleets on earth
3. spending profits – or losses – lobbying congress to keep CAFE standards low
4. bad overall design – (unergonomic interiors, poor “road feel,” not fun to drive)
5. dabbling in the retail mortgage and financial industries
30 mpg highway for a V-6 engine is nothing to brag about. ford and GM make cars in europe that get far better mileage per gallon. so do BMW and VW/porsche. yes, yes, europe has different standards. but they refuse to invest in bringing those standards to the u.s. because it’s cheaper and, well, they can get away with it.
collusion with the oil industry? maybe.
if they retooled their plants here and invested in why the japanese have historically outsold them – increased efficiency; tighter, sexier designs – they would be whipping foreign automakers’ butts in domestic auto sales.
instead, all we hear is that people want tanks to drive around in.
meh. if detroit would put out something like the mazda 5, VW rabbit/golf, the audi A-3, or the subaru outback – roomy, fuel efficient, and tight road handling, with or without AWD – and concentrated on better design and ergonomics, people would snap them up.
in comparison, the ford focus, pontiac vibe, chevy aveo and any similar city cars look and feel cheap and sloppy.
and to bring it back around to the topic, that’s not labor’s fault. that crap comes from the top.
October 9, 2011 at 2:35 am #735869
JoBParticipantredblack…
can’t disagree with a single point.
you make me smile
Kootchman…
yes, a good geotech engineer is seldom unemployed.
thank god my daughter is that good because she will be paying off those school loans a long long time:(
October 9, 2011 at 4:04 am #735870
kootchmanMemberYep.. I friggin love my Jetta… that 5 banger rips at 140 mph+… and it cost me less than $40 in gas to get to Spokane. That great engineering.. comes from R&D… so, as I read it then.. you ARE for choice and we should let the car companies fail..that can’t meet the demand of a market? I am impressed. BTY i did drive the new ford Focus,.. it’s a good option. Let GM die and get sold off …. it’s asset base is worth 10 times more than its market cap… loser.
October 9, 2011 at 4:09 am #735871
kootchmanMemberBTY… GM re-tooled Fremont CA, opened Saturn, … neither helped. every analyst says it .. even the CEO of Mahindra who wants to buy the design center… “they have the engineering technology and design talent”… their unit cost of manufacturing is too high. redblack that it the heart of the problem. Over $6000 per unit.. twice the unit cost of Honda.
October 9, 2011 at 8:03 am #735872
JoBParticipant“their unit cost is too high.. over twice the cost of Honda”
…all together now…
“bust the unions”
kootch…
could it be that if they made a competitive product that their unit price might not matter so much?
I have to think that there are a lot of successful cars out there on the market that have unit costs twice that of Honda
BTW.. FYI…
I am still driving a GM product with nearly 200,000 miles on it that outclassed it’s competition when it was sold and until very recently beat the mileage stats of new units…
those oldsmobile silouette mini-vans take a licking and keep on ticking ;->
I would buy another today if they still made them.
October 9, 2011 at 3:37 pm #735873
redblackParticipantyeah, kootch. i am for competition. but it should be fair to american workers. just like i’ve said about a zillion times. we need to balance the field with trade tariffs and protect our economy. all of our creditors – i mean “trading partners” – do it.
i also have a VW. 15 years old and still goes like hell. but that thing should have cost me 15% more than it did.
ahh, the unit cost. did you know that the japanese auto workers’ union is compensated far batter than the UAW? japanese automakers think our union labor is a bargain in comparison.
the difference is how much profit detroit is taking and not reinvesting in kicking japan’s butt in the marketplace.
the japanese understand that sometimes you have to ignore the bottom line. the bean counters who run american companies never will. (with the possible exception of jeff bezos.) for example, japan took a bath – for years – on radios and tee vees when they started selling them in america. flooded the market with cheaper products. but they knew that americans would buy them, and that they would eventually take over the electronics market.
like they say, “business is war.”
no, i don’t think GM should fail. i’m glad our government was there for them. there are around 3 million blue-collar jobs that rely on car manufacturing or related industries. that ain’t just business. that’s a good damned chunk of our country and its livelihood.
October 10, 2011 at 12:29 am #735874
kootchmanMemberUh redblack? that is because Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, et al ALL have union contracts in right to work states. The current GM UAW contract is over 728 pages. The UAW contract with Toyota? 54 pages. Honda interestngly…opened a plant in Marysville Ohio… guess what? They fled the state and opened their new plant in ? Lincoln AL… in a concession..UAW gave the Ohio plants (engines, transmissions) duplicate contracts. Japan also has a lower unit cost of manufacturing… more robotics. Less labor.
October 10, 2011 at 12:32 am #735875
kootchmanMemberGM would have disappeared as a brand or a highly pared down brand. That is how business works. Bad management, bad decisions, bad products… the difference is.. the STOCKHOLDER takes the risk… NOT the taxpayer. Car purchases would remain what they were.. going to UAW workers in AL, MS, KT, TN, SC, …
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