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October 2, 2011 at 1:29 am #600753
kootchmanMemberHere we go. The greenies go after the darndest things… like NO campfires to save the atmosphere. Or,plastic bags bans. Irritants and mostly ineffective. Of the top 5 atmospheric pollutants, world wide…. making cement is a top predator. Apex predator. So… in Seattle, we demand that the local cement producers install hundreds of millions of dollars in emission controls. And they do. They should. But what does our state do? We have billions of cement dollar work coming.. tunnels, floating pontoons, bridge deck work… why of course…. they approve Chinese produced cement.. no heavy metals capture (mercury for instance..we already detect mercury lead, arsenici from the old jet stream at coastal monitoring).. not one state or federal inspection agency certified any of the Chinese producers as meeting equivalent air pollution standards… so of course..the Chinese will produce it so cheap.. they can ship across the largest ocean in the world (more CO2) , take away Seattle jobs from Seattle workers who will be paying those tolls and fees…and letting all those heavy metals drift onto our shores… who would allow such a thing? Why the campfire at state park monitoring vanguard..or the plastic bag police. Why go big when you pick petty? Suck that China air in deep. Build sustainable and green eh?
October 2, 2011 at 4:21 am #735827
JoBParticipantOctober 2, 2011 at 4:22 am #735828
JoBParticipantgotta ask
do you know this for a fact
or is that part of the farce too?
and if you know it for a fact
how do you know it?
October 2, 2011 at 5:07 am #735829
kootchmanMemberdocuments… tipped off by an “insider” who was appalled..too afraid of his job to do much…you will easily recognize one of the players… looooong history of environmental tiffs…. can you say Maury Island? They keep changing the name and swapping owners…but the same players… fact you can see em’ from your favorite recreation site…don’t worry they are generally upwind.
October 2, 2011 at 5:35 am #735830
kootchmanMemberask your buddy redblack… he was a calcium cooker too at one point in his career…
October 2, 2011 at 5:45 am #735831
JanSParticipantkootch, if this is true, I am indeed with you on this one. I read bunches about the company that wanted to do their thing on Maury Island. “No, thanks” is a hard word for the powers that be?
Think global, buy local…
October 2, 2011 at 6:03 am #735832
kootchmanMemberyea…I wonder if this is one of those state backdoor deals? If you let us do this.. we will stop doing that? I think it is friggin outrageous my local taxes, my tolls, will go towards paying China for products we produce right here… on the Duwamish, by local companies, with local labor. All this b.s. about building “green” or the city mandating LEEDs construction… oh they will crow and crow about a LEEDS buidling..how progressive… and the state says go ahead… allow Chinese produced cement. Tell me the “green” in transporting cement 9000 miles, using barges pushed by the WORST posible fuel… bunker fuel … like I say… always watch the bottom of the deck…that is where government deals come from. I don’t see cement coming from the EU… where pollution controls are tough… I want my tolls reduced on the new floating bridge to 25 cents now. Stimulus packages? How about not spending one damn dime and just telling the state to use NW produced cement… aren’t all these projects receiving federal dollars too? This has happened before… we lost all the Bethlehem jobs…couldn’t make air quality standards… and those furnaces were shipped to China…who promptly shipped the finished steel right back here and around the world. Or the lost 1000 jobs in Everett. Kimberly Clark…same reason.
October 2, 2011 at 6:08 am #735833
kootchmanMemberHey maybe Donald Trump is “da” man afterall ! Go send our new wimpy ambassador with a pollution control and consulting firm to those plants… if they meet the same pollution standards as LaFarge, Tilbury, and Ash Grove….and we can get around the bunker fuel spewing transport tugs… let er’ rip. What was than wimps name? Oh yea… Gary Locke… where have we heard that name before? It’s a crack up… we build millions of $$$$ for cruise ship dockside power so they don’t idle their bunker fuel engines for electrical power… but we can steam up the entire length of Straits of Juam de Fuca and more than halfway around the world …belching the stuff by the metric ton to deliver the cheapest of cheap commodities. City council wants to feel green though… ban those plastic bags!!!!
October 2, 2011 at 3:46 pm #735834
JoBParticipantkootch..
don’t know how to tell you
but if we sourced our concrete locally
and banned plastic bags
we could be even greener :))))
you use what should be legitimate concerns as nothing more than an opportunity to snark..
thus reducing both issues to parlor games.
when you are trying to remove soot from pots…
you don’t leave one simply because it isn’t as black as the rest…
at least.. you didn’t do that at the cabin when grandma was in charge…
not if you wanted to use your backside for sitting later :(
October 2, 2011 at 4:33 pm #735835
waynsterParticipantKootch this is what the big republican business men and women want cheap at the expense of american workers. Why go green here when china can dole out the worse pollution known to man and the air flows on the jet stream just for us to breath and the rain pollutes our lakes and rivers. Those cruise ships and tugs they burn diesel theses days as do the newer ships that sail the sea, bunker c oil is being fased out. As for the straits victoria dumps more sewage in the there then most ships exhaust vent out….and yes plastic bags should be gone like dinorossi opps dinosaurs so at least we can look clean and green almost….
October 2, 2011 at 4:57 pm #735836
redblackParticipantkootch:
i never cooked the stuff, man! i swear! i”m just a small-time user!
heh. i’ve always wanted to use that line.
i worked at the ash grove plant – construction only – when they built the second dome. in order to work there, contractors had to go through an MSHA (mining safety and health administration) safety course, as well as a plant safety course which explained the production of cement clinker and all of that. MSHA oversees safety regulations at cement plants.
thanks for the info, kootch.
so this is how WSDOT plans to balance the budget for DBT. interesting. guess all of those “local construction jobs” claims were b.s. after all.
time to get legislators involved, i think. national reportage? ed schultz and thom hartmann would probably love this one.
maybe we can get tariffs raised on chinese cement like we did for chinese tires.
October 2, 2011 at 5:11 pm #735837
JoBParticipant:)
October 2, 2011 at 5:19 pm #735838
elikapekaParticipantI know local news outlets sometimes source their stories from WSB – maybe someone will pick this up. Kootch, I wasn’t clear from your post if this is SDOT or WSDOT? I assume the state, but would like to know for sure. We need to contact the appropriate legislators, be they state, county, or city. If true, this is really, really, bad.
October 2, 2011 at 10:25 pm #735839
JoBParticipantOctober 2, 2011 at 10:49 pm #735840
kootchmanMemberI am not snarking. as I said to redblack soooo many many posts ago… unions were a social force at one time When we are confronted with loss of jobs, being non competitive, because we are protecting our environment… we should insist the crap that hits our shores be regulated at least to the occupational safety standard and environmental standards of ourselves. But what frosts my pumpkin the most is the hypocrisy of it all on so many levels. The state cries about the layoffs for lack of revenue..wants ro raise those taxes. and then becomes the antagonist of local business and jobs. Or.. we may be trading apples and wheat export access… ya never know with the state…cause they love the darkness.
October 2, 2011 at 11:19 pm #735841
kootchmanMemberhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/27/china-trade-jobs_n_984064.html
Nothing new… but … as to using diesel fuel for heavy sea tugs… China? RU kidding me… they would burn their dead for fuel if it was cheaper. I believe Victoria capitulated… to the tune of 1.5 Billion for a 4 plant sewer treatment complex…
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009323284_webvictoriasewage10m.html
October 2, 2011 at 11:36 pm #735842
kootchmanMemberMaybe it would serve us well to use the “clunker” program for industrial disposal. If a plant production facility cannot meet environmental standards… it is a “clunker” and cannot be sold overseas… it must be demolished and scrapped, rendered not useable… one of the emerging replacement jobs… could well be plant and industrial engineering… where “we” sell environmental controls to overseas manufacturing. In lieu of paying “cash for clunkers” at taxpayer expense… the offending plant gets a new construction offset .. accelerated depreciation. Saves jobs, creates jobs, protects the environment…
October 3, 2011 at 1:39 pm #735843
redblackParticipantwe should insist the crap that hits our shores be regulated at least to the occupational safety standard and environmental standards of ourselves.
so, are you willing to raise tariffs to level the playing field and prevent contractors from using chinese cement?
anyway, as far as i (and google) know, the company formerly known as glacier cooks their own cement for use in their concrete. they have kilns up and down the west coast and are actually an american cement exporter. in fact, they bought glacier from a japanese company.
i’d be interested in hearing more about your insider info, kootch.
October 3, 2011 at 2:02 pm #735844
JoBParticipantredblack…
something nags me here.
the company once known as Glacier is now Cal-Portland
who were barging huge amounts of aggregate overseas not that long ago…
October 3, 2011 at 6:58 pm #735845
kootchmanMemberredblack depends on the objectives. Sustainable constructions are supposed to source as locally as posslble. lots of kilns have been shut across the country that can’t meet air quality standards or find it too expensive to remove the lead, arsenic, mercury etc and go the import route….who owns what and which ones are up and running? I have no idea. Sourcing locally recognizes energy is needed to move stuff and keeps jobs local or regional.. Co2 thing. Add pollution controls to KC and it makes no impact if the demand is filled from another paper company that does not have equivalent standards. Tariffs don’t stop offshore sourcing. and does nothing to mitigate. If it is cheaper to offshore source then run your own equipment I dunno what a tariff will do. I think equivalent standards ahould be mandated. Same thing with forest products, it’s great to have sustainable forestry, but does that happen or do we just transfer unsustainable practices to South America or Malaysia et al. Tariffs start tariff wars. Why doesn’t India or China ship cars here? They can’t until such time as they meet both air quality and vehicle safety standards. Noth countries make lots of cars.. but they are not going to sjip into North America or Europe until they meet the emission and sagety standards. That makes sense. Food products using banned pesticides are not supposed to be imported. If you are going to do this: Seems to me as taxpayers, we should get as much revenue from state constructions as we can. The energy revenue, the production worker salariess, the mineral extraction, and the sustainability issues.
http://www.greenbuildingpages.com/links/weblinks_LEED.html
Part of the sustainable matrix includes sourcing as locally as possible. Seattle mandates it. So do multiple federal agencies.
JTS.. thanks for the link. WSDoT Qualified products list, and the breakout of some of the offshore sources
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/biz/mats/QPL/QPL_Search.cfm
Jurong Cement Jaingnan Onoda Cement
Siam Cement Company
Daewood Cement Company
Ssangyong Cement Corp
Dalian Cement Corporation
Shandong Sunnsy Group
October 3, 2011 at 9:45 pm #735846
kootchmanMemberredblack… I went to the site… if you use the pulldown menu.. it was “that” company that asked for the approvals.. so I suspect they are not “clinking”…
October 3, 2011 at 10:45 pm #735847
redblackParticipantshort answer regarding what good tariffs do:
if it costs $1 per pound of american cement, and it costs $.50 per pound of chinese cement, we implement a $.50 tariff on the chinese cement, so that domestic products cost the same or less than imports. the contractor can then use whichever product better suits his needs without sabotaging his own country just to save a buck. it costs what it costs – no ifs, ands, or buts.
that worked for 200 years and built us an industrial powerhouse. and pretty much all other countries do it, including china and japan. they have these things called “borders,” you see, and they like to protect them.
back to the topic: ahh! thanks for the link. i was looking at ownership. now i see. while they’re a completely american company, calportland is trying to ace local concrete suppliers who use lehigh, lafarge, and ash grove by using asian cement – almost exclusively.
naughty!
looks like washington state needs to tell calportland to use cement from seattle, tacoma, or their mojave kiln – or go fly a kite. they do make their own clinker in mojave, but it’s probably cheaper to ship it over the pacific than it is to use the freaking rails right here in the land of the free – because of free trade madness and a lopsided trade debt with china, i’m sure.
October 4, 2011 at 12:20 am #735848
kootchmanMemberWe tariffed chinese tires.. they promptly slapped a poultry tax tariff. So far, it has cost the US farmer 780 million dollars in lost sales. Zero sum game. Slap a cement tariff…back comes an airliner tariff…. That is what tariff wars start. Tariff wars are cascading events. It was tariffs that extended the depth of the Great Depression. Know why you don’t see Tupelov airline jets? The engines and frames don’t meet FAA standards. As hard as local designers try to build green… homes, offices, factories… who is to know where the cement came from? Once we have all four companies importing to meet the competitive market… we will have lost another Seattle industrial capability (yea, dude, and union jobs) We have kilns here, we have them in Oregon, we have them in BC…and as you noted, California. If the EPA is going to handcuff us and drive up our costs,,, fine…for the greater good. But what the hell use if the back door is open? When KC shuts the door, on an obsolete plant that can’t cost effectively upgrade pollution controls, I don’t expect them to set up shop in Oregon with the everett equipment. What they did was build and expand their newer plants in Texas. This is one bad actor with a long history of flippin’ the bird to environmental concerns in this state. All the greenies now feel good cause we are on a plastic bag tear … like I said.. Seattle is easy to placate.. just throw em’ a bone, throw a few headlines on a new LEEDS school, force everyone to buy “dimwit” bulbs…symbolism over substance. My question is why was the state so complicit in this?
October 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm #735849
redblackParticipantwhy are we exporting chickens? don’t they have chickens? are chickens unsustainable in china? or maybe they’re tired of dealing with the chicken shit. they’ll let us deal with the waste runoff while they get the cluckers on the cheap. and i hope to god we’re not exporting the free range stuff. let them have the GMO- and antibiotic-laden chickens.
see, first of all, trade should make sense. why do we trade stuff that doesn’t need to be traded? we make cars, they make cars. we make tires, they make tires. we make chickens, they make chickens. we have oil, they have oil. etc, etc. we don’t need to import those things on a massive scale just for the sake of trading some crap with someone.
that is precisely what killed american manufacturing: business says, “we can sell it cheaper if you let us make it cheaper.” what they didn’t tell us is that it would cost us our livelihood.
know why the japanese are reluctant to buy buicks? they claimed that our cars don’t meet their clean air and safety standards. the truth is that they didn’t want to reciprocate with our “free” trade. because they are very protective of their economy, they see business as war (especially with america), and they are very nationalist.
yet we dropped our trade tariffs in the ’80’s and allowed them to dump on our auto market. we let americans buy cheaper cars and undercut our own auto industry. the japanese couldn’t believe we would do such a stupid thing; but they profited anyway. it wasn’t demand for foreign products that killed the big three; it was cheap foreign supply. dumping. plain and simple. it’s how they killed our electronics industry, too. they certainly didn’t make better hi-fi.
it’s the wal-mart theory: drop the borders, let business do what it wants, and screw the government. and the jobs.
we should stop doing that and get a bit more protectionist. this cement deal with calportland is a perfect example of where to start.
and we all know that calportland isn’t going to stop using chinese cement on their own, out of the goodness of their hearts, out of sympathy to american workers. that would cut into their profits.
so, kootch. are you going to reverse your position on this one? or are you becoming a progressive when it comes to trade? or are your positions inconsistent and vary by product?
sure. blame tariffs for the great depression. like i said, they worked for 150 years before that. then look at what the top marginal tax rate was and listen to some of the political rhetoric about government and labor unions that was floating around. and look at what the banks were doing. it should sound familiar.
October 4, 2011 at 1:27 pm #735850
redblackParticipanti, too, want to know why the state is complicit. calportland should be excluded from state contracts as a concrete supplier.
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