Home › Forums › West Seattle Rants & Raves › Stolen Signs
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November 18, 2008 at 8:25 pm #647437
mellaw6565MemberNice attitude Jaime
November 18, 2008 at 8:34 pm #647438
JenVMemberguess we know who suspect # 1 is now.
November 18, 2008 at 9:19 pm #647439
FullTiltParticipant“Value judgments about aesthetics are not in themselves offensive.”
Really? What if the OP was about a lost child, and your reply was that the kid was really ugly, a blight on your community, and always hogged the trampoline. That would not have been offensive?
When you join a forum, and in the first few days people are asking you to be polite in response to almost every post you write, maybe it is time to do some self reflecting.
November 18, 2008 at 9:41 pm #647440
WSBKeymasterAnd as Full Tilt mentioned, we do have rules of civility here. I am going to have to review every post in this thread now to make sure I haven’t missed an unflagged violation. Critique the ideas but not the people. Sometimes we are in turn criticized for seeming to apply the rules subjectively/selectively but I have to say that’s because every time you think you’ve “seen it all,” something new comes up, and it’s impossible to write rules to cover all possible instances. While it wasn’t against the rules to say the signs were ugly, condoning a crime (and theft is a crime regardless of whether the stolen item was in a place it was supposed to be, or not) as a result may be something I need to add to paragraph 97, subpart 1.89, clause B. We already have more rules than most places but only because I refuse to have this site turn into a sewer of nastiness — unlike so many sites, including major newspapers, where no one seems to police comments and forum posts at all, despite alleged rules. Please assist in keeping this, while not a completely boring place – disagreements, discussions, debates welcome – at least a generally civil one. Thank you.
November 18, 2008 at 9:44 pm #647441
WSBKeymasterAnd to Jaime, yes, while we are the site owners, we do rely on members to help keep the peace, even if only by using the “report this post” feature. I do NOT condone in ANY case people saying “take it elsewhere” because no one has the right to say “get lost” – if that needs saying, we’ll say it. However, I do appreciate those who post reminders of the rules and expectations, because we simply cannot be in every thread at every second (and even if we had a paid fulltime moderator, which would be a great thing in the future but at the moment we have higher hiring priorities, they wouldn’t be either).
November 18, 2008 at 9:54 pm #647442
JoBParticipantJamieGummer,
just in case you haven’t read the rules carefully, i would like to point out to you that personal comments such as those found in your posts are not only rude.. they are against the rules…
Now i admit.. you have probably pushed right up against the boundaries of those rules… but an intelligently phrased personal insult is still an insult… and insults appear to be your first response when challenged.
Singling out one sign from the many adorning our downtown sidewalks to criticize is pretty rude… especially for an event that is more service to the community than to the store… especially when done so in response to a plea for the return of the sign.
I am afraid the lack of understanding you have displayed of the basics of polite discourse has undermined my appreciation of the importance of your opinions concerning aesthetics.
But… It’s a good thing the signs offended you so much.. it saved you entering the store to be further offended by the items being sold there.
They were craft items made by crafters with individual notions of what is aesthetically pleasing… and they may not have coincided with yours since every item was hand crafted to that crafters’s personal taste.
That 3 day sale is a service to the local crafting community.. one you may not appreciate.. but one which is eagerly anticipated by those who do… and by those on very limited incomes who will now have holiday money as a result of the proceeds from that sale.
I can see why you think that donating time and space to this event was not enough.. the owner really should have invested in a professionally made sign so that it would not have offended your sensibilities…
but an improved sign probably wouldn’t have drawn you in the door anyway…
and as with any advertising.. a wise business caters to it’s customers..
November 18, 2008 at 9:58 pm #647443
WSBKeymasterAlso a word of caution for everyone.
I have seen a lot of “since you just signed up for the forum x days ago” type mentions.
Please refrain from those.
In some cases, people come over to check out the forum after having visited the main section of the site for months or even years.
I have been extensively pitching forum topics on the home page lately, when something particularly noteworthy comes up here, as a reminder to those who don’t frequent it, that this vibrant and unique section of the site exists.
Also, some people come here to register and subsequently post because they have e-mailed me about something and my reply to them was, “that would be a great topic for the WSB Forums – just register there and post it!”
So please cease judging by duration of membership. Thanks.
November 18, 2008 at 10:14 pm #647444
AnonymousInactiveJaime, every thread on here goes off topic, most more than once. Don’t let others try to bully you into moving it elsewhere. The strict adherence to a topic only seems to come into play when someone doesn’t like your opinion.
Individual opinions, are not rule violations, as much as some would have you believe.
And to compare one’s opinion on the aesthetics of a street sign to a missing child is beyond ridiculous.
November 18, 2008 at 10:19 pm #647445
mellaw6565MemberJT – I never judged her opinion. I only pointed out that she jacked the thread with an attitude that I thought (IMO) was inappropriate to the plight of the OP and a crime. It was more appropriate to start another thread with the signage complaints.
November 18, 2008 at 11:22 pm #647446
JaimeGummerMemberJT – Exactly. It has been clear to me all along what’s been motivating those above who aim to stifle free speech simply because they disagree. That’s unfortunately become all too common in America these days. And it seems to happen a lot on comment boards like these where frequent posters overstep themselves with a sense of ownership and, whether they realize it or not, bully those with unpopular and dissenting opinions.
lowmanbeach: I by no means intended to seem as though I was trying to justify or encourage the theft of the signs. I said repeatedly that I was sorry for Doris’ loss. The “doing us a favor” comment was in jest.
JoB: I simply disagree that my comments were rude. It seems I just don’t subscribe to the same Victorian code of “polite discourse” that you do. I wouldn’t dream of schooling you on how you should act. I just don’t know you so it would be foolish for me to do so. Sometimes you have to risk being offensive in order to be direct.
I think this issue is much bigger than just these signs too. I think it is indicative of significant changes that are happening in West Seattle these days. There are some criticisms of change that I think hit the mark, especially when they are addressing how the character of particular institutions in West Seattle are being replaced by a certain homogenized blandness. But at the same time I think there is a real blue collar, provincial aesthetic that is being supplanted by a more wordly, upscale demographic of people that are moving here. Everyone seems to ignore it because it is in “bad taste” to identify such differences and as Americans we’re supposed to pretend that there are no social classes. But it is happening none-the-less. And people who don’t understand it are uneasy about it. They attack it as economic elitism but in reality there is so much more to it.
I’ve lived in West Seattle for a few years now and only recently made the time to attend an Art Walk. While I love the idea of such an event, I was disappointed that much of the art was bland, safe, boring, derivative drivel. Similarly, there is a great tradition of American crafts and folk art. Whole museums are devoted to it. And glassblowing specifically is something that Seattle is celebrated for. But the “crafts” on display in West Seattle seem mostly cheesy, downscale, bourgeois junk that shows a lack of real creativity. And judging from how some here defend the existence of those “crafts” no one seems to mind. It is great to say “to each his own” and everyone has his or her own taste, but that unfortunately doesn’t provide anyone any incentive to do any better.
I seem to think that Seattle, and West Seattle in particular, deserves better. We deserve art, crafts and a built environment that inspires us, makes us think and feel, maybe shocks and disturbs us. We could be a truly world-class place but many of us just don’t know what that really means. I’m not afraid to offend the mediocrity boosterism.
November 18, 2008 at 11:41 pm #647447
FullTiltParticipantJaimeGummer thanks for the education. Possibly you could set up a board that would review all art projects in west Seattle before they are set out to the public. That way, you could give your judgment before some grandmothers TP doily destroys another cornea.
November 18, 2008 at 11:44 pm #647448
addParticipantOMG, that was LOL funny FullTilt.
November 18, 2008 at 11:48 pm #647449
FullTiltParticipantOh you think it is funny, but give Grammy a quick rabbit punch to the back of the head, and she will think twice about that orange, pink and brown afghan.
Eventually it could be expanded to shred teen angst poetry. That would be fun. I would even volunteer to help with that one.
November 18, 2008 at 11:56 pm #647450
TraciMemberWell Jaime it’s really nice of you to express sympathy to Doris. You’ve made it clear that your “critiques” aren’t personal by so eloquently saying the following about her signs:
janky
ugly
lack of taste
under-designed
lacking in imagination
ugliest Window’s PC font
tasteless
basic
polluting public spaces
a blight
the people who constructed them are visually impaired
mediocre
and the best…. horrifying as to be permanently scarring.
But hey, Doris must be a nice lady and you’re sorry for her loss? Yikes. Did it really take a VERY wordy (and personal) attack on a small business to get your point across?
I personally applaud Doris for being such a sweetheart when she replied in her defense.
November 19, 2008 at 12:34 am #647451
vincentMemberSorry everyone thinks Jamie being honest goes against your group think ideal that are becoming the sad norm here.
Notice Lowmanbeach/tracy has not deleted a single one of her posts.
Its these attitudes that have made me consider stopping my visits on WSB much as thehouse and others have. Despite being a active west seattle resident of many years.
From the outside looking in, and on the meter stick of many many other webBB around just Seattle WSB blog forums are like some glad handing theater of self congratulation devoid of critique and independent opinions. Members frequently give opinion as fact, and gang up on people who disagree, even when they point out the exact laws or facts that are being discussed.
Like A boards being litter.
You how I know A boards are litter? because as a teen I worked with my friends parents to make the law that classify them as such, why? because they represent illegal use of public resources. I would consider lobbying to getting them banned from business districts as well. because despite what the content is, I and others believe thier presence is indeed ugly.
Does that mean I hate craft sales? of course not, but do I have a right to judge the relative merits of something with being subjected to some lame ad hominem attack from a crowd of hypocrites yelling *rudeness rudeness!!* to some imaginary playground teacher?
November 19, 2008 at 12:45 am #647452
JaimeGummerMemberTraci: I don’t know Doris. But as she is an adult and a business owner I certainly hope she has enough security with who she is as a person that she wouldn’t base her own self esteem on the opinions of a perfect stranger whom she has never met. I wasn’t attacking her. I was addressing her signs.
Let me put it to you this way: I hate black licorice. In fact, I find everything about its flavor to be absolutely repugnant in every way. If I was starving in the desert and you gave me black licorice I wouldn’t thank you for it.
So now by your logic, do you think it would be reasonable for every black licorice manufacturer and merchant in the world to take personal offense at my opinion? People have founded entire businesses on the manufacture of black licorice. In the Netherlands it is something of a national institution and is sold in vast quantities in all varieties at stalls on the street. Should everyone who loves black licorice feel personally attacked because I despise what they love? Should they feel angry, hurt and insulted?
When did we become a community of such thin-skinned whiners who demand that only polite, positive things are said and who internalize criticism as personal attacks? I appreciate everyone’s loyalty to Doris but I interpret your flawed assumptions as akin to the act of giving poor students B grades so as not to damage their self esteem.
November 19, 2008 at 1:20 am #647453
FullTiltParticipantI do not think anyone was saying that the comments of JaimeGummer violated any forum rules. I think the point that was trying to made is that she is being hurtful with her comments.
The major difference about saying that you hate licorice, and I am with you on that one, and that Doris’s signs are “horrifying as to be permanently scarring”, is that Doris is a person. Licorice has no feelings. Doris probably does. You may not.
As far as becoming a society of thinned skinned whiners… Who wants to live in a place where the loudest mouth wins? Where you can say what ever rude thing you want and call it personal opinion with no repercussions. I think it as an amazing system that when you open your pie hole and idocracy pours out, there are people to remind you that it would be polite if your head was a little further up yourself so the rest of us didn’t have to hear it so loudly.
Why is it OK to attack someone for their aesthetics, but not OK to attack you for rudeness?
November 19, 2008 at 1:37 am #647454
Wylie_snoopMemberI’m enjoying red licorice while reading this more than entertaining thread. Bummer to Doris for having her signs stolen, and Jamie gets two thumbs for being real.
November 19, 2008 at 1:44 am #647455
JaimeGummerMemberThanks Wylie snoop! For the record I loves me some red licorice. But the black…..EUCH!
November 19, 2008 at 1:54 am #647456
FullTiltParticipantJohnnsongummer. Your missing the point. No one is telling you not to post. I am saying your rude.
“Licorice maker is to Doris as licorice is to signs.” Really? That is as far as you can see this? Anonymous candy maker vs someone that is actually going to read this and lives in your community. There is no difference there in your noggin? ( not a real word either.) On top of that, it was not even a topic on how here signs looked, just that they had been stolen and she wanted them back.
November 19, 2008 at 2:03 am #647457
acemotelParticipantJaime = breath of fresh air. yesss.
November 19, 2008 at 2:12 am #647458
JaimeGummerMemberQuarterTilt: So you think my comments about Doris’ signs were rude. OK. I hear you. Not quite an original opinion, but I feel ya.
Well this is free and open society and you’ve expressed your opinion. And I support your freedom to do so. Of course, this thread started as a notice about stolen signs and now you’ve highjacked it to focus on my demeanor which is kind of what you’re calling me on, isn’t it?. Hmm.
As you don’t know me and you’re a perfect stranger to me, I hope you won’t be offended if I don’t take your criticism personally. You see, as an adult I recognize that when I make my opinions public that opens me to criticism from the community. And that’s OK with me because I live in the real world, not Fantasyland. Some people agree with me. Some don’t. That’s life. And thank god for that too as if we were all polite, agreeing Stepford people the world would be an incredibly boring place.
The bigger problem is that your reaction to my feelings on the current state of aesthetics in our built environment was to take the standard/customary way out and be cynical and mocking as in “who are you to be an authority.” I’m sorry but that’s just too easy. I’m not representing myself as an authority on anything. And I’m sure that there are many who have better taste than me. I’m secure enough to say that and mean it. Unfortunately, if a five minute walk down California is any indication, there are lots and lots of people who have horrible taste. And that bad taste is fortified every time someone like you takes out a hammer and pounds down the nail that has the temerity to rise up above the rest and ask, “what the hell were you thinking?”
November 19, 2008 at 2:20 am #647459
flipjackParticipantyaaaawnnnn…man I’m tired….think I’ll take a nap.
November 19, 2008 at 2:37 am #647460
Kayleigh2MemberDo you feel better now, Jamie? Serious question.
November 19, 2008 at 2:56 am #647461
JaimeGummerMemberThat’s not a serious question Kayleigh2. It is a pregnant, baited question. But what is gratifying is the number of kind, thoughtful people who have private messaged me expressing solidarity and support for my honesty.
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