Remember Carl Sagan? Anniversary of his death

[wakeflood]

And I wanted to emphatically second the thought Pango mentioned above.

It doesn’t matter if you think God is a sea serpent who likes root beer floats and hates Thomas Hardy novels as long as you don’t impose that belief on anyone in the public square.

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[wakeflood]

JoB, you wrote: :…i believe that faith can not be evaluated using science as evidence.”

To which I ask, based on what underlying assumptions?. Are any other human personality traits off limits for science to pursue? Or just that one? Faith certainly has some significant impact on our world, does it not…? Why do you believe it’s impenetrable by scientific pursuit?

If you don’t believe that it can be examined at all, obviously the conversation stops. (Which I would lament.)

However, if studying the concept of faith is something you’re willing to ponder, then my book recommendation speaks directly to it.

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[JoB]

I may be a touch testy about this one

i live with a husband who will literally go off on a rant against religion in general and Christians in particular

forgetting entirely that his entirely sane and reasonably intelligent wife who is sitting right across from him avows Christianity.

these are the moments marriages are made of ;->

wake .. being taught religion and having faith are not necessarily the same experience.

My early experiences in more than one church taught me that i want little to do with organized religion …

although i have pretty much rejected church, my faith survived every challenge i created.. and has only grown stronger with the years…

your faith if you held it wouldn’t necessarily be the same experience as mine…

in fact.. i believe each person’s perception of faith is unique to that individual .

faith is what you swim in..

with or without the trappings of religion :)

if what you feel does not feel like faith to you.. then it probably isn’t

“It doesn’t matter if you think God is a sea serpent who likes root beer floats and hates Thomas Hardy novels as long as you don’t impose that belief on anyone in the public square.”

but it’s ok to pose the belief that there is no god in the public square .. because that is not somehow imposing your beliefs on others?

there we go again with that pesky sniff test ;)

As for examining faith.. i don’t believe you can do so with anything but your heart…

which makes faith an enduring mystery

VBD.. i will agree with you that few Christians have studied religion as assiduously as those who want to prove them wrong… ;-0

sorry.. couldn’t resist :)))

pango.. thanks.. for the most part i am pretty sure i am a nice person …. i know i care a great deal about my fellow man and i think that is the qualifying characteristic of nice ;-)

and i agree with you.. i too could care less what anyone else chooses to believe..

datamuse…

since there is no way to prove the existence or non-existence of any God.. then one’s position on the subject has to be one of personal belief.. doesn’t it?

****

i find myself most in tune with agnostics who say there is simply no way to empirically prove whether or not God(s) exist…

For myself, I don’t need proof…

that’s what i call faith

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[JoB]

i’m sorry.. i know this last post is not as well written as i would like.. i am sure i am not as clear as i would like to be…

but i am very tired tonight and the forum editing process is more than i can cope with right now :(

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[PangolinPie]

It was fine. Nah, I spent so much time arguing with the religious online, back in the day, before the internet as we know it today even existed (BBSs and Usenet, anyone?), that I don’t spend a lot of time on it now. As stated, as long as your beliefs don’t interfere with my life, believe in whatever you like.

Me, I’m at peace with a lack of religious belief. I don’t wonder what will happen to me after I die; I know that my mind will shut down and the entity I am now will be gone. There’s something quite reassuring about that. I just don’t feel the need for “spiritual” belief because my life is pretty complete without it. And to be honest, I could no more convince myself to believe in a god that you could make yourself believe in Santa Claus. But we can live in a world with each other and like each other for what we do have in common and, hopefully, politely and silently respect each others’ positions.

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[linda]

My favorite quote, from the Cosmos series on PBS and the accompanying book:

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

Thank you wakeflood for the memories of Carl Sagan this post has triggered. Just put Cosmos on my reading list as I have not re-read it since the original read.

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[VBD]

linda, your post made me think of this. Many of you may have seen it. It’s a bit annoying with the auto-tune and all, but it’s good none the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc

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[VBD]

JoB, you must be tired. I actually can’t think of anything contrary to say in response to your post.

Are you gettin’ soft?? ;)

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[JoB]

VBD..

the fellow on another channel that i just told to pull his head out didn’t think so ;->

but he would be wrong.

i said it kindly.

even i have soft days :)

thanks for the video..

i am a not so closet science freak :))))

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[wakeflood]

Ok JoB, I’ll be the jerk and respond to your sniff test…

By the “public square”, I’m referring to the matters of governance of humans. If that was unclear, I apologize. If that WAS clear, then I absolutely don’t want yours or anyone else’s god to be part of the discussion. :-)

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[JoB]

wakeflood..

you have no argument from me that religion has no place in governance.

but .. i find your definition of public square very limiting…

this is my favorite public square.

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[wakeflood]

Agreed, JoB. I officially change my vague and limiting term to “governance”. :-)

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[wakeflood]

And Linda, you are most welcome for the thread. I keep asking myself how it is that guys like Sagan and RFK, and MLK, etc leave us before their good work is done and Dick Cheney gets to walk the earth spouting his nonsense…? Oy.

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[JoB]

Oy

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[seaopgal]

The forum goddesses are not allowing me to post in Smitty’s “Colorado shooting” thread. I took this as definitive proof that they are wiser than I am, and benevolent, to boot. And yet here they allow me to post in the science v. faith thread. Perhaps I was wrong and they are not wise… perhaps they do not even exist … or perhaps they exist but just do not care … or perhaps they are so much wiser that I can’t even begin to understand them.

Hmm, the Magic 8 ball says “Try Again Later.”

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[JoB]

seaopgal

you have to watch out for the magic 8 ball

it told me to marry my first husband

i think the creature that lives inside there has a wicked sense of humor ;->

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[JoB]

i am still thinking about this article

which is good enough reason to pass it along here..

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/12/why-do-atheists-exist

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[metrognome]

in support of Carl’s comments in the original post, I give you …. Texas!!!! How about a round of applause …

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/18/21960023-evolution-lessons-will-stay-in-texas-biology-textbook-board-says

as far as ‘religion in the public square’, it will never go away. Why?

1) voters will always vote for candidates who reflect their stand on major issues, whether said voter is Christian, Baha’i, pagan, Jewish, atheist/agnostic, Muslim, Quaker, etc. (sorry to those who were left off this rather incomplete list.)

2) money/taxes will always be the ultimate source of conflict on issues. Even if we could get agreement on any specific issue (abortions, same-sex marriage, war, drug enforcement, etc.), someone’s belief system will stand up and say, ‘I guess (fill in the blank) should be legal, but I don’t want my tax dollars to pay for (you guessed it, fill in the blank.)

3) there will always be factions that want to restrict someone’s access to something that they consider immoral (i.e. abortions, alcohol, drugs, certain sexual activity, etc.) while simultaneously proclaiming the need for small, non-intrusive government). Then there are the factions that want corporate (remember, they are people too) profits restricted so that we have decent wages and benefits, breathable air, drinkable water, etc.) Many view restricting accruing wealth as unreasonable on moral grounds; this is the ‘new’ religion. That and sports, which is also a religion (btw, did you know that specific legislation was passed in the 60’s that makes the NFL equivalent to a religious institution in the federal tax code?)

It would be a different world if people who want to use their moral beliefs to restrict others access to activities instead took the approach that, ‘I don’t believe in (abortions, alcohol sales on Sunday, same-sex marriage, etc.) so I’m not (going to have an abortion, buy/drink hooch on Sunday, marry someone of my gender, etc.)’ Nah, it’ll never happen …

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[VBD]

Not so sure I agree with the link between Obamacare and atheism specifically, but I do think the societal link between religious belief and a feeling of security is a interesting area of inquiry.

Evidence of people turning to mysticism during times of crisis is pretty well documented. It’s not as clear whether people abandon mysticism when things are easy.

Sagan’s book “The Demon-Haunted World” definitely examines these sorts of issues.

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