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October 20, 2012 at 2:24 pm #605256
miwsParticipantOctober 20, 2012 at 2:44 pm #774420
JoBParticipantgood link miws..
from miws’ link…
“The Jobs at Sensata are the epitome of good Middle Class jobs — they start at $17 and hour. The company was making record profits building auto parts and sensors, important to keeping a strong manufacturing base, here in America. There was nothing there “to fix” when Bain took them over.
… hyperbole deleted for the right wing faint of heart …
All that matters to the Bain-equity-share-owners — including Romney’s $8M worth —
is the Outsourcing Tax Credit and the sub- $1 starting wages the Owners will end up paying the Chinese replacement workers.”
this is a classic example of Romney’s business experience…
and it was happening while Romney stood up in debate and talked about building American jobs.
did he approve this takeover?
who can tell?
We can’t see his tax returns so we don’t have a clue if he is still being paid by Bain,
but we do have the comment by one of Romney’s aides that Mr Romney if very aware of what investments are in his not so “blind” trust and how they are or aren’t performing.
He has 8 million reasons and a personal interest in staying current on what is happening at Bain
We can be pretty sure Romney approved the message Bain sent
because it is consistent with what he approved when we are sure he was still a paid part of the Bain process.
Is this really the future you want for America?
Because this is how Mitt does business
October 20, 2012 at 5:46 pm #774421
kootchmanMemberWhat’s the Obama plan? More of the same? Romney has his blind trust audited yearly…. as you well know, Now, YOU may not get to see them… but the FEC does. So does the IRS. Red herrings just flying around the blog today… Gallup release new polls? A blind trust means… you cannot actively guide or direct your portfolio.. of course you will get statements on your portfolio performance… think for half a second after the dog whistle blowS JoB… the man has to file tax returns…. he has to know. It’s the law. At his income, he has to file quartly statements.. that four updates a year… and trust me on this one.. you are REQUIRED to identify your foreign holdings. Hysteria, hysteria….
“but we do have the comment by one of Romney’s aides that Mr Romney if very aware of what investments are in his not so “blind” trust and how they are or aren’t performing.
DUH!
October 20, 2012 at 6:03 pm #774422
JiggersMember“As president, I will create 12 million new jobs.” —Mitt Romney, during the second presidential debate
“Government does not create jobs. Government does not create jobs.” —Mitt Romney, 45 minutes later (Oct. 16, 2012)
LOL….
October 20, 2012 at 6:04 pm #774423
waynsterParticipantKootch who outsource more jobs …..yep Mitt did and everyone knows china will get the new jobs from Mitt and co….what will we get minimum wage jobs no health insurance and the poor gets poorer middle class will be eroded further soon the rich will pay why the 47% will be gone….
October 20, 2012 at 7:19 pm #774424
kootchmanMemberNot if you adjust the economy to the realities of the 21st century. You cannot keep jobs here in direct competition with a same skill set requirement as a laborer with 1/10th your cost. We were the low wage, low skill, transformative manufacturer that laid ruin to the European textile industry. Great Britain adjusted.. in fact all those canals, rails, etc were in large measure funded by British investment and insurance houses. I fear your prediction will be self fulfilling… we keep churning out minimum skill workers, we will have minimum wage earners. We rose the highest living standard as an agrarian economy, then as an industrial/raw material society, and now the transition into information and investment. We are going to be an investment and information based economy. That will be our underpinnings. I would be proselytizing how to be in front of the change and influencing it. Spending all that time, money, and efforts to resist the change and subsidize the status quo.. will cede the ground to Europe, Asia, India etc… we will be a nation of modest economic influence at best. Government does not create jobs. but it mightily influences or discourages them. You have a front row seat.
When we have fully eroded the national character of rising to challenge, opportunity, risk, rewards, our decline will be permanent. Those that do not accept the erosion, will leave. The countries that promise the most opportunty will rise. Not the country that promises absolute security with no risk and just enough reward to survive, not thrive. A docile status quo.
I have seen enough of government allocation of investment capital… Obama is 0-58 on his “bringing back” American manufacturing. Truth is.. unless manufacturing has specific advantages… i.e transportation costs.. they are gone. The American worker offers no more benefits than a Chinese worker in todays automated manufacturing environment. The highly paid worker was displaced by his own success. The more he/she costs the more intensive the effort to replace them with lower cost manufacturing methods.
You can’t tax it back.
October 20, 2012 at 11:18 pm #774425
rwParticipantRemember the infamous Romney video where he talked about the lazy 47%? In another part of the video Mitt talked about visiting a Chinese factory that was surrounded by a tall fence. The way Romney told it the workers at the Chinese factory were felt very fortunate to be working there, even for peanuts — unlike American workers who express discontent even though they make many times more than their Chinese counterparts. So whose side is Romney on? Not the American worker’s. So why should the American worker support this bs? And as the American worker gets beaten down, the big business Republicans will blame the workers for not having more initiative and wanting handouts (socialism).
Now go back and reread Kootchman’s post #6 in this thread.
October 21, 2012 at 12:08 am #774426
kootchmanMemberwell rw.. all well and good. You propose to do what about it? Like I said your have a front row seat to the parade, yet ya watch the little clowns running around in circles in midget cars. Have you even thought or contemplated on why Il, CA, NY, are losing their tax base? I have never seen Romney call the 47 per cent lazy… have you? I did hear Romney state, and accurately that we have a rising dependency class.. which is true. Yes, you are going to compete against an entire world labor supply. Good or bad, that’s the way it is. I am suggesting we don’t get used to it.
October 21, 2012 at 1:19 am #774427
rwParticipantKootch, What do I propose? 1) Tax reform to eliminate deductions and distortions on the market, 2) Eliminate support systems for corrupt financial markets, 3) Improved support for education, so we have better educated young people to support and maintain our economy, and 4) Radical reform of health care, so we no longer have the highest costs and most mediocre results among the developed countries.
Many conservatives will deride these reforms as “socialism,” because they generally distrust any appeal to the “common good.” (I recall in a previous thread Kootchman’s dismissal of the VAT.) And they do not want any changes to health care, tax systems (unless they pay less), or financial reform (because the big money interests find it easier to sway Republicans than Democrats.)
So be it.
October 21, 2012 at 5:30 am #774428
JoBParticipantkootch..
how about we adjust you to the reality of the current economy.
go spend a few nights at Nickelsville
it’s nice and wet down there now
cold too
October 21, 2012 at 4:11 pm #774429
redblackParticipantko0000tch:
We were the low wage, low skill, transformative manufacturer that laid ruin to the European textile industry. Great Britain adjusted.. in fact all those canals, rails, etc were in large measure funded by British investment and insurance houses.
LOL. dude, you are off your meds!
you’re talking about slave labor picking cotton and splitting rail in america in the 1800’s, and conflating it with unionized american textile workers in the 20th century.
that’s the whole damned point: americans can’t compete with slave labor – unless we become slaves ourselves.
no. not only no, but hell no. screw your 21st century economy that primarily benefits the hedge fund managers and wall street. it isn’t working for people who don’t have the intellect or ambition to go out and make their own fortunes. maybe they don’t even have the desire to be rich – which is none of your damned business. nonetheless, we have the people and the resources to make our own tee shirts and cars and cell phones and any other thing we can think of.
yes, american widgets will cost more, but that’s the true price of independence. that’s economic patriotism.
and that, my friend, we value above any rich fat cat’s ability to skim profits.
hey, by the yea, wall street used to be about providing capital for american businesses. now they provide capital and interest for their own little fiefdoms.
remind me what good they are to me. at this point, their only purpose in my life is as a taxable resource for my government. other than that, they’re a bunch of worthless leeches who do nothing but tie up morning commutes and make paper trash.
October 21, 2012 at 4:52 pm #774430
NFiorentiniMemberI’d like to respectfully disagree with Redblack on this point…
“yes, american widgets will cost more, but that’s the true price of independence. that’s economic patriotism.”
I think that appealing to patriotism in order to convince people to pay more for widgets is a losing proposition. Also, not many people who I’ve ever met aspire to work in a factory. America’s future isn’t tied to manufacturing; it’s tied to creativity and innovation.
Therefore, instead of competing in the world’s economy on the basis of cheap labor and “Buy American,” I’d rather that this nation invest heavily in research and development and education.
This reprint of Robert Reich’s article appeared in my microeconomics textbook and I think that he makes a heck of a case.
Nice Work If You Can Get It
By Robert B. Reich
It’s hard to listen to a politician or pundit these days without hearing that America is “losing jobs” to poorer nations–manufacturing jobs to China, back-office work to India, just about every job to Latin America. This lament distracts our attention from the larger challenge of preparing more Americans for better jobs. . . .
It’s true that U.S. manufacturing employment has been dropping for many years, but that’s not primarily due to foreigners taking these jobs. Factory jobs are vanishing all over the world. . . . I recently toured a U.S. factory containing two employees and 400 computerized robots. The two live people sat in front of computer screens and instructed the robots. In a few years this factory won’t have a single employee on site, except for an occasional visiting technician who repairs and upgrades the robots, like the gas man changing your meter.
Manufacturing is following the same trend as agriculture. As productivity rises, employment falls because fewer people are needed. In 1910, a third of Americans worked on farms. Now, fewer than 3 percent do. Since 1995, even as manufacturing employment has dropped around the world, global industrial output has risen more than 30 percent. . . .
Want to blame something? Blame new knowledge. Knowledge created the electronic gadgets and software that can now do almost any routine task. This goes well beyond the factory floor. America also used to have lots of elevator operators, telephone operators, bank tellers, and service-station attendants. Most have been replaced by technology. . . .
Any job that’s even slightly routine is disappearing from the United States. But this doesn’t mean we are left with fewer jobs. It means only that we have fewer routine jobs. . . .
Look closely at the economy today and you find two growing categories of work–but only the first is commanding better pay and benefits. This category involves identifying and solving new problems. Here, workers do R&D, design, and engineering. Or they are responsible for high-level sales, marketing, and advertising. They’re composers, writers, and producers. They’re lawyers, bankers, financiers, journalists, doctors, and management consultants. I call this “symbolic analysis” work because most of it has to do with analyzing, manipulating, and communicating through numbers, shapes, words, ideas. This kind of work usually requires a college degree. . . .
A second growing category of work in America involves personal services. Computers and robots can’t do these jobs because they require care and attentiveness. Workers in other nations can’t do them because they must be done in person. Some personal-service workers need education beyond high school–nurses, physical therapists, and medical technicians. But most don’t, such as restaurant workers, cabbies, retail workers, security guards, and hospital attendants. In contrast to that of symbolic analysts, the pay of most personal-service workers in the United States is stagnant or declining. That’s because the supply of personal-service workers is growing quickly, as more and more people who’d otherwise have factory or routine service jobs join their ranks. Legal and undocumented immigrants are also pouring into this sector.
But America’s long-term problem isn’t too few jobs. It’s the widening income gap between personal-service workers and symbolic analysts. The long-term solution is to help spur upward mobility by getting more Americans a good education, including access to college.
October 21, 2012 at 5:09 pm #774431
redblackParticipantNF: the problem with reich’s argument is that we still need to grow food and build buildings and well… just look at boeing. they are a huge employer in the puget sound area. those are factory jobs, they’re desirable and highly-sought, and they’re unionized.
and the bottom line is that i don’t want cheap pakistani clothing. i want quality products, preferably products made in my own country that support middle class families.
furthermore, there is a large segment of the population that simply isn’t educable. and i’m not being classist here; that fact is as old as western civilization.
so what are americans who can’t advance to college – for whatever reason – supposed to do for work?
we can’t be a nation of management firms. it’s impractical. this isn’t switzerland. we have vast resources, and we should use them to propel a diverse economy that includes agriculture, manufacturing, and construction. and export as much as possible while reducing imports and our increasingly-dangerous trade imbalances.
respectfully, reich’s argument is rather flat earth, a la thomas friedman. i’m more nationalist, and to a large degree protectionist.
one panacea to global corporate control of the american economy – and its workforce – is localization. i just heard a program on KEXP yesterday morning about that very topic and how it can lead to not only a better country and better jobs, but better government, as well. anyone else hear that at the crack of dawn saturday? digging up the transcript is on my to-do list for later today.
October 21, 2012 at 5:47 pm #774432
JoBParticipantredblack..
i don’t see this as an either or proposition
America once led the world in technology because American companies and our government invested heavily in research and development.
If we drop the tax and import advantages of manufacturing overseas.. A well educated labor force suddenly becomes an advantage worth exploiting.
research and development creates ideas that don’t become products until manufacturing fine tunes them.
October 21, 2012 at 6:48 pm #774433
redblackParticipantjo: i agree that it’s not either/or, and NF and robert reich are correct: we should be training symbolic analysts and personal service workers, and making them – and especially their employers – adhere to immigration laws.
but reich completely ignores other jobs that can’t be off-shored, mainly agriculture and construction.
i mean, sure, we can hire cheap undocumented workers to do those things. but is it wise?
union trades people are important because they have a set of skills that involves building things safely without cutting corners.
and having skilled farmers is also important, because we need a bountiful and uncontaminated food supply. importing massive amounts of food isn’t a great idea for a number of reasons; but farming can and should, in my opinion, be wrested from the hands of big business and become a local or regional prospect once again that provides good jobs and living wages for hard-working families.
my point is that doing so will indeed raise prices due to the cost of labor associated with those things. but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing if everyone has jobs and is getting paid better rather than competing with overseas workers for crappy wages.
which brings me back to dobro’s original post.
nice!
and look: having competition with foreign labor is fine – as long as the playing field is somewhat level for american workers. it gives consumers choice. but when there are no american brands of televisions, for example, what choice do we really have?
a good example is the price of a european car versus the price of an american car. VW/audi/porsche pay their workers extremely well, and all germans pay into a health care system. in contrast, the UAW has been making concessions for years so that management can sell competitively-priced american cars. sure, you can buy affordable german cars – as long as they’re assmbled in mexico. but here’s an area where government has an interest in protecting its manufacturing sector. like henry ford said, the guys and girls on the assembly lines should be able to afford the products that they’re making – preferably without crippling themselves with debt. and it would be nice if those products were solid and reliable, even if they are a little more expensive.
October 21, 2012 at 7:27 pm #774434
kootchmanMemberInteresting… analysis or hallucination .. I can’t tell. First, the largest auto market in the world is no longer North America. Those that ARE building new plants are doing so in non-union states are are doing very well. Good cars too. The UAW has the highest manufactured unit costs in the world. GM the “saved” auto company? It’s still losing market share. Chrysler which never mad a fuel efficient vehicle … is now touting the new FIAT engine technology from their truck division. Automotive manufacturing is growing .. it’s growing in right to work states and by foreign companies. Want to see how good UAW has been for the manufacturing sector.. start counting. In 1963 every third vehicle was a GM produced car… stand at the corner in the junction… start counting. Won’t even be close. A million automotive jobs have been lost to better manufacturing methods, “design to manufacture” technology, and automation.
Paying more will be more patriotic? Dude, as soon as COL rises… unions strike. You want that living wage remember.. your grocery bill pops 30 per cent and your gasolines rises… to 7 gallon.. you’ll be on the picket line. I gotta better idea… take a 10 year wage and benefits freeze… patriotic thing to do. Make college affordable, cap tuition increases to the rate of inflation, raise them any higher, and you are no longer eligible for Pell grants. Cap wages and benefits increases at the core rate of inflation. Make colleges provide a product that is affordable. Loans and debts don’t make it affordable. When you subsidize spending costs rise. I argued that VAT while fine theory, it is almost a “flat” tax.. discourages employment… the more hands that touch it.. the more it costs.. second, it discourages consumption.
.
October 21, 2012 at 7:34 pm #774435
JoBParticipantkootch..
have you ever played the fortune cookie game?
you know, the one where you follow all fortune cookie statements with .. in bed…
when Mitt says he will create jobs.. sllently add .. in China
only with Mitt, it’s not a game.
now i don’t know if you buy the bullshit
or you are just having a swell time trying to bury us with it
but the sun is shining and this conversation.. if it can be called that.. is boring the beejeezuz out of me.
i am opting or the afternoon off.
October 21, 2012 at 8:54 pm #774436
miwsParticipantHey kootch!
Looks like your good buddy Mitt “earned” a buck or two on the GM bailout!
From the linked article:
Mitt Romney’s opposition to the auto bailout has haunted him on the campaign trail, especially in Rust Belt states like Ohio. There, in September, the Obama campaign launched television ads blasting Romney’s November 2008 New York Times op-ed, “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt.”
The referenced NYT Op-Ed.
Mike
October 21, 2012 at 9:28 pm #774437
kootchmanMemberIt’s a moot point. GM is back on the road to declaring another bankruptcy…. the Obama directed bankruptcy didn’t solve the core problem for GM. It has the highest production costs per vehicle unit. Even juxtaposed to other domestic manufacturers, Ford, Fiat, Hyundai, Mazda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Subaru, see.. the auto industry was not at risk… GM was. miws? I don’t care how much or where Mitt earned his money… as long as he followed the law. It’s a balance….but the most unproductive auto workers are GM workers. Due mostly in part to the legacy costs of bargaining and settling for benefits packages that can no longer be delivered. Good thing most American believe Romney is better able to restore the economy…because they are right. Did you note how carefully every Obama initiative was designed to kick in after his election? Don’t worry we’ll try our best to save you… we will. See Romne would have looked at GM and said… “needs to lower it’s manufacturing costs, lets find out how to do that in a bankruptcy reorganization”… a problem solver… Obama says.. let’s get some union votes, not address the problem, and hope by magic it resolves itself.
October 21, 2012 at 10:11 pm #774438
redblackParticipantI gotta better idea… take a 10 year wage and benefits freeze… patriotic thing to do.
been there. done that. didn’t get a tee shirt.
look at COL versus american wages since
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wait for it!
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ronald reagan.
October 21, 2012 at 11:04 pm #774439
kootchmanMemberStill sawing on RR? Well he he put 15 million workers back on the payroll …. don’t you wish Obama could? I saw a lot of construction jobs in those heady days.. a lot more than you see today.
In fact, as grim as Obamanomics is… those who are employed are beating his dismal growth of GDP.. and inflation. One reason being, the most productive and versatile workers are retained. The less productive are laid off.
About 3.6 per cent in the top quintile, and 1.9 per cent in the bottom quintile. But I can assure with 100 per cent confidence that all the QE money is being felt. Imagine Bangladesh, with and average monthly wage of $41 where 80 per cent of income goes to food?
I hear ya loud and clear.. but redblack.. either you stay in the service, low skill service sector where there is surplus labor.. or you invest in yourself and become a participant in a higher strata of income where demand for labor is strong. If ya don’t and don’t want to… fine. But that’s where the money is.
The average worker up until the last four years actually made gains… no, they didn’t make the same gains as more valued work product. That which is less supply and is in demand… in this case skilled, knowledge workers, will rise in value. Flashing a union card doesn’t mean you are worth more or less. Demand for your labor does.
October 22, 2012 at 5:35 am #774440
JoBParticipantkootch..
any manufacturing entity that beggars it’s market is indulging in short term thinking of the worst kind.
October 22, 2012 at 12:51 pm #774441
redblackParticipantStill sawing on RR? Well he he put 15 million workers back on the payroll …
and lowered wages by trading manufacturing jobs for service and import jobs while creating whole new layers of managerial and clerical work dealing with foreign companies.
he also hired contractors to replace government workers, creating three jobs where one existed before and thereby reduced government efficiency, breaking his promise to increase it.
bad ideas. all of them.
October 23, 2012 at 1:59 pm #774442
JoBParticipantOctober 24, 2012 at 11:49 pm #774443
kootchmanMemberGood night Irene… Dude have you even bothered to look at housing starts? Remember those 2.4 million per year starts in 1983? I do. I had my cup out for the action. Those would be good paying jobs wouldn’t they?
There is one disguised blessing in the downturn… it freed hundreds of thousands of workers who were tied to protecting false equity, to move and migrate where better opportunity exists. There are millions of “walkaway” homes in depressed housing markets. Mobility helps increase living standards.
Government efficiency? Huh? I saw the air traffic controllers get efficient mighty quick! Gimme a break, not even you can sell that to yourself. Contractors are like pinch hitters… you use em when you need em, and they aren’t a perpetual drag on the tax base. They are free to pursue other opportunity until called to the plate. No taxpayer pensions, benefits beyond what the private labor markets allow…. construction exempted.
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