politics of LGBT/straight exclusion

[Anonymous]

charla – i think you make a great point!

And, who knows, we may all be saying the same exact thing. Not sure I have my brain wrapped around it all yet!

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[Kayleigh]

I once was interviewed for a job by two women of color. Much to my surprise, they were rude and borderline hostile to me. And I didn’t get the job (duh.)

I have no idea, to this day, why they acted like that. Looking back with a few years of maturity, the fact that they were *both* like that leads me to think that it wasn’t about me at all. Maybe they had both gotten yelled at earlier, or the toilet in the restroom had overflowed, or maybe they were treated badly in general by their boss.

Or maybe they were biased against women older than they were, or white women, or women with my background, or maybe I inadvertently said something rude.

In the absence of knowing the actual “why”, I attributed their behavior to my being prettier than they were. Of course, that was a self-serving bias on my part—served my vanity and protected it from the rejection, right?

So next time the way someone treats you feels like racism, ask yourself if there are other possible explanations….there generally are…

;-)

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[Anonymous]

But, then, let me ask this:

If I treat someone of color, or someone in the LGBT community poorly, why is it assumed I must be racist or prejudiced?

That is a very easy, and sometimes over-used excuse.

I once was a “regular” at a coffee shop. One particular day, I went in to get my usual and there was a huge line. The barista saw me walk in and called out a hello and went ahead and made my drink, since she already knew what I was going to order.

Turns out, there was a black woman in the line ahead of me somewhere and later took this incident up with management as a racism issue.

So, I totally see what you are saying, Kayleigh, but I think that it can apply to both sides. However, it is most commonly applied in regards to the person of minority speaking up about it. Or pointing to a completely innocent situation and turning it into a “racist” or “discrimination” issue. It seems that doing so, has, somehow, become ok.

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[Kayleigh]

Why the assumption of racism? Because it is soooooo pervasive and sometimes even unconscious. There’s a lot of social and lab science that confirms this. And the person of color has probably experienced this all her life, so she’s more likely to attribute it to racism, rather than to your friendship with the barista.

And it’s possible the barista does have biases, conscious or unconscious.

It’s just more common, and more pervasive than people want to admit.

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[JoB]

the truth is that the only person whose motives we stand an outside chance of knowing are our own.. and even then those are clouded by assumptions and expectations we may not even look at.

It’s just not all about us.. as painful as that may be at times.. in fact.. if find increasingly that not only are things that are often directed at me not about me.. they don’t have anything to do with me at all.

i am sometimes not even the center of my own universe…

Heavy:)

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[JenV]

NR, maybe I don’t *get it* as you so succinctly put it. Perhaps I never will understand the mindset of someone who has to make it *all* about *them* all the time. Perhaps I just saw this in simplistic terms, and took your posts at face value. I didn’t realize it was *so* much deeper than that, and that you are really working for social change. My deepest apologies.

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[JoB]

JenV..

oh no, it is all about me.. isn’t it:)

i now it’s a cliche.. but we all have to know ourselves before we can know another… and love ourselves before we can love another…

sometimes cliches can be so comforting;(

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[JenV]

know myself well enough and love myself enough to finally stop beating this dead horse, JoB, which is something other people can’t seem to do.

buh-bye.

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[Kayleigh]

LOL, Jen you keep it real! :-)

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[Anonymous]

I wanted to thank those of you who were able to see and understand the issue at hand. I really think this has been a very honest conversation.

The few of you who added your unique experiences and perspective are extremely appreciated. I am always interested in learning how others feel and think.

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[JoB]

JenV..

i had come to the same conclusion… thus cliches ;-)

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[TheHouse]

I typed out this long drawn out post and then opted to highlight and delete.

Here is my revised post:

New Resident, I understand what you’re attempting to say but everyone you’re debating with sees things through different glasses (they believe that one wrong + one wrong and a little bit more wrong = a right).

JoB, our analogy of a paper cut vs. a car accident are only eloquent to people that view their lives as victims. If you look at your analogy objectively, whether I give you a paper cut or I run you over with a car they are both considered assault and both are WRONG!

JenV, you continue to exhibit racist and homophobe traits. Stop hating white people and being afraid of homo sapiens.

Peace on you.

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[Anonymous]

Thank you House.

You are an ally when I began to think there was me…… and then them.

I guess you’re right.

I attempted, though. That should say something, at least for this Republican.

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[Shibaguyz]

NR – It seems to me that you are still hurt about something that happened. Please do me a favor and go through my original posting for this group and find the parts that were discriminatory toward you or any other straight person.

It seems to me that, as much as you say you would like open and honest discussion, anytime someone has expressed that they don’t agree with you, it is just that they “don’t get it.” Okay… then help us “get it.” I’m simply asking that you explain what it is that you found as discrimination in us posting an inquiry about interest in a gathering of the LGBT community here in WS. Also, which part of the posting stating AND FRIENDS were you specifically confused about that caused your incessant requests for clarification.

I understand that you were hurt. You made that clear. You have accused us of being unhappy people, accused us of discrimination over and over and over again. Now, I would like for you to give specific examples of how our original post hurt you so badly. And, please, don’t just tell me that I “don’t get it.” I’m asking sincerely and would appreciate a sincere response so we can all understand and finally “get it.”

Thank you

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[feydras]

Interesting thread. I’ve mostly poked around and lurked on these forums but the temptation to throw out my 2 cents of hot air has overwhelmed me. I’ll try to keep them to the topic at hand. It’s a long post so if you are like me you’ll likely just skim it.

I tend to fall in with the levels of discrimination group i guess. Kaleigh’s bandaid arguement is pretty compelling and i think a nice illustration.

I’d like to add an example from a friend of mine. She is black and was pulled over by the police for driving a little fast. In this area many people speed. Her interpretation of it is that she was ticketed for being black. Mine was that she was speeding. I was annoyed at her tirade against ‘whitey’ (my word) but later thinking on it realized that if i was faced with so much unseen discrimination it would be easy to start wondering about it every time someone treated me bad. Like NR’s black woman in line at the cafe. Hard to not start seeing it everywhere. Sure, as TheHouse points out it is far more healthy and functional to not fall into that victim role but i know i am not self-actualized enough to never do that.

I think JT’s intro to this thread was well stated but i too can definitely see the desire for a historically persecuted group to have a safe, exclusive space. However, i also have no problem with TheHouse’s exclusive group, even were it not a joke/point. I think it’s perfectly fair for a social group to identify themselves however they want. Doesn’t mean i won’t badtalk them, but i won’t deny their right to exist. Where i draw the line is if that group is attempting to move against my rights or freedoms.

Years ago a friend made separatist feminist communities comprehensable to me by explaining that sometimes you may need to remove yourselves entirely from normal societal space just to begin to understand your identity.

New Resident – It strikes me as very odd that i am so often reading posts accusing NR of never facing discrimination. Even her own posts tend to agree to that. I find that hard to believe. I suspect that as a woman she is likely faced with far more discrimination than she may even be aware of. Seems to me Male priviledge is roughly as insidious as White priviledge. Just in this thread (and many others) she is frequently harrassed for being a Republican. Something that is a pretty maligned group in much of Seattle. A lot of nasty comments and assumptions have used this as an excuse. It always amazes me that so many liberals find it so acceptable to hate (and i mean hate, not just criticise) Republicans instead of hating their policies. Often they are hating them for the very things that they are themselves doing, like being closed minded.

TheHouse – I appreciate your attempts to make a point and i appreciate more your ability to “stir the pot” whether that is your intention or not. If you never stir the pot the scum settles on the top. I confess i haven’t read all the posts referred to but in your S West Seattle.. thread and in this one you seem quite reasonable to me.

Shibaguyz – i found your tirade about dogs and the farmer’s market very whiney (damn, got way off topic!). That said, i was pleasantly surprised to find that your comments on this thread and the others were IMO intelligent and straightforward. In any case, you seem to be a positive force of community building around here and that’s pretty cool. Also, i can see your point that this conversation has gone off topic in that you were never even proposing an exclusive space.

JenV – I gotta say it. All that anger’s gonna eat you up.

Lastly, i’m bummed i missed the BPP get together as i love talking with people and drinking and that is my favorite pub. If anyone actually read through this whole post then i owe you a beer* for your patience and your kind, if foolish feeding of my ego.

*disclaimer – supplies of poster’s cash is limited, likely to one before running out of money!

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[JenV]

feydras, you don’t know jack about me, and never will…so don’t make assumptions. I took NR’s post as whiny that she wasn’t invited to something that she saw as exclusive- because it was exclusive- and she couldn’t handle not being included. And I commented on it. this is, after all, an INTERNET FORUM. you know, where you COMMENT on things. Now, I don’t know her ulterior motives, because this is an internet forum, and people are frequently misunderstood in this medium. take you, for example- you lurk on here and then come on and cast judgment on everyone in one fell swoop. you might have meant something different by it, but gosh, I can’t see that, because I don’t know you. You think I am angry? you got the wrong chicky. But I am passionate about my beliefs, and I never hesitate to say what is on my mind. Especially on an internet forum. and I am not afraid, like some people, to actually say it in person as well.

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[Shibaguyz]

JenV – I understand your passion… most of the time I write entire posts then go back and edit them for content just to make sure I don’t sound like a raving lunatic. That seems to be the vehicle my passion takes unless I think it through. That said, I did say “most of the time” I edit because sometime I just have to get something off my chest and, yes, this is an internet forum where folks express passionate opinions and sometimes just throw out our frustrations into cyberspace.

JenV – Our LGBT get together was exclusive only to the point that it was limited to members of the LGBT community and friends. That was stated many times in the original thread as I’m sure anyone can see (as a matter of fact most have acknowledged seeing that fact of statement).

In analyzing if we were trying to be exclusive at any point, we were indeed trying to make sure that it was not a “looky at the gay people” gathering where curiosity seekers came to just see what gay people were all about. As far as I saw originally, most of the folks who asked the question about “and Friends” being included probably would have fit that “and Friends” category. We never tried to say, however, “no, you can’t come” to anyone asking to come. We simply stated that it was a gathering of a group of “LGBT and Friends.” That was enough clarification for everyone involved with the exception of NR (thus my request for clarification in post #64 of this thread).

LGBT and Friends is a very specific group of people and those who are a part of that community know when they are a part of it without too much question and understand why it is that way.

I do not believe that anyone ever felt threatened by anyone asking to come to this gathering, it was a simple matter of me stating very correctly who the group was for to make sure it was for the intended audience of participants. The general lack of knowledge about the term “safe space” raised a lot of hackles and that was just another indicator of not knowing what LGBT and Friends meant. Knowing that it would be for LGBT and Friends, only those folks fitting that category would show up. That meant the space was “safe” for anyone in that community and they wouldn’t have to answer questions from people who were just there to debate, question or even “learn about” being LGBT. That meant the “space” would be “safe.” Since there is confusion about that phrase, I will do my best to explain simply: “space” = ANY gather spot whether it be a restaurant, park, coffee shop, meeting room, etc. “Safe” = you can let your hair down and be who you are without fear of having to answer awkward questions, defend your point of view about being LGBT or (worse case scenario) be verbally (even physically) attacked for who you are. It has been our experience that these “safe spaces” are possible no matter what the setting whether it is in a classroom at the local school, at a coffee shop in WS (or Laramie, Wyoming where we attended college as adults), or the local park.

While I agree wholeheartedly that there is a need for gatherings where LGBT and Friends get together for the purpose of education and creating a safe space for folks who are curious about our community and who want to debate, question and learn about who we are as a community, this was not that time. All we wanted to do was have coffee, a beer or a glass of wine together and kick back, get to know one another and relax. That is why we kept stating LGBT and Friends were welcome. That seemed pretty clear and, in the past, has been enough to get that point across.

We have participated in many panels, roundtables, radio and television interviews, newspaper articles and spoken on stage numerous times for the purpose of educating and information. The two of us have no problem with that kind of interaction. That is not the case, however, with everyone else in our community. We did not feel it would be best to speak for everyone by assuming that everyone attending this gathering would feel “safe” or “okay” with that situation (“okay space??”). So, we defaulted to the most common category of “LGBT and Friends” only in order to create the best environment possible for this first meet up so that even more shy members of our community could/would attend.

If our Friends had shown up as well, I wouldn’t have had a problem with that. That is why, when we were originally asked if “Friends” were invited, I added and Friends” to the language. I forgot to do this once and explained at length why I did it: out of habit from YEARS of gay activism and community building where the “and Friends” part of our community understood without constantly having to clarify that they were included. For example, if either of our families or our two best friends had wanted to show up, I would have been fine with that because they have been there with us along our journeys and, in my opinion, fit that category of “and Friends.” That definition is, however, different for every LGBT person. In our (Shibaguyz) minds, “and Friends” defines a pretty narrow margin of society. Our parameters may be different than others in the LGBT community. It is not for us to go through and qualify that definition to the infinite point for every member of our community. I has, however, been our experience in twenty years of activism and community building in the LGBT community that the “and Friends” part usually just comes along and they somehow know without us ever having to explain it to them. Yes, we’ve been involved in larger discussions about it but that is probably another thread or at least another post since this one is getting lengthy.

Finally, “and Friends” does not imply in any way, shape or form the we (Shibaguyz) or anyone else in the LGBT community as a whole do not have straight friends. While the heading of “LGBT and Friends” might define a less broad sector of society at large, “Friends,” in that usage does not define everyone we know or associate with. As a rule, we (Shibaguyz) don’t really hang out on a regular basis with people who are homophobic (or just hateful and nasty in general) but we certainly don’t make it a requirement that they fill out a membership card to PFLAG upon meeting us. We are very open about who we are as a gay, male couple and there usually isn’t any question about that within the first few seconds of and introduction since we refer to each other as our partner. This pretty much takes care of anyone who doesn’t like to hang around with gay people and we don’t usually have to debate it. However, the same is true for ANYONE belonging to ANY group of society that your particular section of society (however you define it: LGBT, straight, knitter, lawyer, accountant, dancer, gardener, cancer survivor, republican, democrat, etc) identifies with. You gravitate toward friends who share similar interests to you. That rambled a little bit but the point is to clarify that “and Friends” does not imply that everyone who is friends with an LGBT person falls into the “LGBT and Friends” category. Further, “and Friends” does not, generally, classify all of our friends.

I hope this clarifies some of the confusion and clears a lot of the dust that is flying around without stirring up too much more of it.

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[Anonymous]

Shibaguyz – I really and truly appreciate your request to understand my position.

I don’t know if I was hurt, so much as I felt that it was wrong that anyone should have been excluded. (Not just me, but anyone…. It was never just all about me)

I can now see that you weren’t necessarily “excluding” any one, but were in a precarious position of being both welcoming and also protective of those members who needed a little more privacy. I would imagine, not an easy position to be in. I want to apologize for making it that much more difficult for you.

I’m glad the the conversation progressed and feel that a lot of good came out it.

feydras – I did read your post, the entire post, and I’m glad I did. Your observation of the situation is both intelligent and thought provoking. So, can we talk about that drink, now?

JenV – I find it interesting that you become so offended anytime someone who hasn’t met you, makes a comment about you based on the posts you write.

Even more interesting is that, while *that* doesn’t seem to be okay with you, personally attacking me is something you have no qualms about doing.

And further, when we have met in person, you show absolutely no interest in speaking with me. I have specifically gone out of my way to speak with you and have consistently been met with distance and hostility.

Anyways, again, I’m glad this conversation (those who chose to have it) happened. I found it refreshing to have such an honest purging of everyones thoughts and feelings.

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[Anonymous]

feydras, welcome to the forum/discussion. I’m glad you decided to participate. I think you offered a pretty accurate summation and I hope you stick around and continue to post.

When you’re buying beers, I’ll be the liberal LGBT person sitting next to the republican *friend of*.

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[keleeso]

Jinkies, this has been an awesome thread. A lot of honest dialog, open sharing, understanding and acceptance (of both the things/ideas that can be changed and maybe some that can’t).

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[spana]

If I had a meet up for unicyclists and New Resident showed up it would be a) boring as hell for him/her, and b) his/her presence would be completely useless to everyone else who came there to talk about unicycling.

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[JoB]

I am offended that anyone is making comments on the personality of anyone else on this thread… that’s character assaination.. and well worth fighting against.

i know JenV to be impatient with fools and i suspect .. Ok, i know… because she lambasted me for what she considered adding fuel to the fire… she thought this thread to be foolish..

She and i suffer from a similar problem.. we can’t just ignore it.. so we speak up and say something.

That doesn’t make either of us angry people.. tho i think we both have been known to respond with anger when pushed too far.

Please excuse me JenV for speaking for you… as always these are only my observations… but not being able to suffer fools myself, i felt i needed to speak up.

No more than it makes all Republicans heartless jerks… or all democrats naive do-gooders…

all it takes is a cursory reading of this forum to find that the stereotypes just don’t fit.

It seems theHouse and others are addicted to this victim mentality smokescreen.

Let me define victim for you…

One definition is someone who has suffered an accident or malice that they didn’t provoke. On that level, every human being on the planet is a victim… because we have all suffered accidents or malice that we didn’t provoke..

and by the way.. i don’t consider mere existence provocation.. regardless of gender, color, religion, political preferences or sexual orientation… i am sure i left something out…

I don’t even consider bordering on being a troll.. posting just to make trouble.. provocation… though i will admit there have been times i have been tempted:)

hijacking that definition to mean that anyone who talks about injury is a victim is blaming the person who suffered the accident or malice…

that by definition is victimization.. and it is practiced every time you call someone who suffers any injury and who is brave enough to talk about that injury a victim.

That is the very tactic that was used for years to silence rape and incest victims… and it is as ugly now as it was then.

You do not have to be the victim of rape. I am a survivor. You don not have to be the victim of prejudice. i am the survivor of prejudice against women.

But i was raped, i have been the victim of the worst kinds of sexual harassment and i have been denied opportunities that would have been available to me had i been male.. and that is just the short list.

Survivors have many injuries. some of them can be covered with bandaids… some require stitches.. and some never heal.

the victim mentality is when someone uses their injury as an excuse or to expect special treatment.

That didn’t happen here. Naming injuries and being cautious of creating situations that make further injury probable are not the same thing as asking for special treatment.

I didn’t even hear anyone asking for justice.. just for the right to meet together without everyone making a big deal out of it.

feydras…

please do more than just post pot stirring cloaked as observations. if you have something to say, join the conversation. We talk to anyone who isn’t into name calling and character assassination.

y’all…

a little respect here really would go a long way.

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[JoB]

as always, the time is spent thinking and writing means my post missed good conversation…

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[charlabob]

Well said, JoB — I was simply going to say, on behalf of JenV who needs no help — apparently not ALL opinions are accepted??? Yesterday, we decided, with amazing civility, that everyone had a right to h(ir/s) opinion — even if it was wrong.

Today (apparently) we decided that it was, once again, open season on JenV. I guess I don’t get it.

/s/ she who prefers to make fools suffer

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[Kayleigh]

I thought we were having a thoughtful (if a little acadaemic) conversation–without accusation or meanness. I interpreted Jen as comic relief, in a good way, breaking the tension and being grounded.

At least NR was willing to genuinely listen and consider other points of view.

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[Author]

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