Laptop question

[Aim]

Jiggers I hope you’re feeling a lot better soon!!! I also have autoimmune issues, so I get it. It sucks donkey balls sometimes. Let us know if you need anything, ok?

Someone said above that they’d recommend the HP DV series. I agree. No, it’s not a Mac (also my first choice, also out of my current price range) but I bought two HP Pavillion DV6700 widescreeen laptops (technically they’re 15″, but they feel like 19 with the wide screen.) The only thing to note is they’re physically very heavy with the extended battery. The performance is fabulous. We’ve had the two of them 3 years, we’re both on them daily and fairly hard on computers, and they’re both in brand new condition still. I download movies and e-books constantly, and watch tv online, as we don’t own a television. They work perfectly for all of that.

Here’s a link to their Black Friday sales – some good deals until end of day Saturday. Here’s the most comparable machine to what I have. I would recommend upgrading to the better battery and add the maximum length of time Lo-Jack they offer. Otherwise, leave everything default. (Ken can likely verify that this would be more than adequate and well within your budget.) If you or someone in your family doesn’t work for a company that partners with HP for discounts, I’d be very willing to help you out with my discount which knocks it down to $569. Others on the site are slightly less powerful or a little bit smaller and in the $350 range. Just ask editor@westseattleblog.com to give you my email address, ok?

Again I hope you are feeling so much better quickly. I miss your smartass comments around here. :)

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[JanS]

Aim…you’re a gem :)

Ken… http://www.tinyurl.com :) hehehe

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[Carson]

For what its worth, December 2010 Consumer Reports. Best Buy rated 17 inch laptop, HP Pavillion dv6-3025dx, they said they paid $600 for it.

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[Aim]

Yup, that’s about right Carson. I truly love mine. It’s a great little machine. Of course, I’d love to upgrade to the newer one with 8G RAM and a 500G hard drive. My measly little 150G HD and 4G RAM feels a bit slow now. Though I can still do everything I ever wanted. :)

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[GenHillOne]

Am I the only PC-baby that can’t STAND Macs? If I try to do the smallest task on a friend’s machine, I’m all thumbs and everything is counter-intuitive, taking so much longer. And yeah, then there’s the price. So overall, not even remotely interested. Oh, but advertising (and such) that tells me that I’m uncool for that *totally* sells me :P

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[Jiggers]

Thanks for giving some real good info on this topic although I am just a very casual PC user. A lot of PC lingo is like speaking chinese to me. I just want to keep myself to what I understand in the tech industry which isn’t much. I can’t do a lot of tasks on the computer which maybe simple to some of you here maybe because you are more tech savvy than I. If I were in my 20’s, maybe it would be different but, I’m a lot older than that so the learning curve gets more convoluted and frustrating. I don’t like to get things to convoluted in technology and keep it simple. I have a good friend at Microsoft who works in a high sensative area there. I’ve known him since high school who checks my securities, does udpates and checks for viruses for me once every two months unless I do get a virus before hand. He uses his own security products he developed and placed it on my current PC which works wonderfully. I don’t do anything illegally so I don’t need to worry. He knows were I’ve been which frankly I don’t care because I don’t take chances while surfing. Anyways, alot of good points here. Mahalo’s.

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[null_pointer]

Hi Jiggers,

When it comes to electronics I’m a total cheapskate because it seems that after you buy you inevitably see a comparable product much cheaper a short time later. Because of this I’ve learned to never buy at full price and I usually use various deal sites find and establish what is a good deal. I saw a deal on a laptop that I think matches what you are looking for so I figured I’d pass it on. Here’s the link: http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2428582 The stats on this machine looked really good to me it has 17.3 in screen with good resolution and graphics card, also hdmi so you can plug it directly into most newer TVs and send video and sound to the tv. Also 4gigs of ram and they are claiming 7 hours of battery life per charge. The CPU is not the absolute fastest on the market but it is definitely respectable. And its in your price range. I think it is the newer model of the one Carson mentioned above as the consumer report best buy. Anyway good luck to you.

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[christopherboffoli]

GenHillOne: Just because you are more accustomed to one system doesn’t mean that that system is superior to another with which you are unfamiliar. And honestly, where does this whole “Mac users think they are so cool” argument come from?! It sounds more ridiculous every time I hear it. I use Macs because they work. Really well. The notion that someone would use a Windows PC in protest because Mac users think they’re so cool sounds like something right out of 8th grade.

Apple’s success wouldn’t have lasted five minutes if ‘the illusion of cool’ was all there was to it. I think the fact that Apple is selling upwards of a million Macs a quarter while Microsoft (and its share price) continue to circle the drain indicates that lots of people have made the right choice by purchasing much more well-designed products from a truly innovative company. And the fact that Apple has repeatedly set revenue records during a deep recession also indicates that most people understand the true meaning of value and cast off the whole “Macs are so expensive” myth. But you don’t have to take my word for it:

Despite terrible economy, Apple has another spectacular year: http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16703362?nclick_check=1

Apple’s holiday quarter MacBook Air shipments could hit 750,000 units: http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20101126PD204.html

Mac shipments outpace PC market 3:1: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/11/23/mac-shipments-outpace-market-3-to-1/

Critics are losing the Apple price argument: http://bit.ly/bYJSpV

Microsoft is a dying consumer brand: http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/27/technology/microsoft_pdc/index.htm

Apple becomes the world’s second most valuable company: http://bit.ly/cho7dN

Houston Chronicle: Apple iMac: No Windows PC can compare: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/silverman/7156270.html

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[GenHillOne]

christopherboffoli,

1) I didn’t say one was superior, I said I was used to one and am all thumbs on the other – sounds like I’m saying that I’m the problem, yeah? Though I’m not taking responsibility for price tags.

2) Where did the argument come from? Ummmm, about a million “Hi, I’m a PC” commercials starring Justin Long as the more hip Mac? Mac/Apple certainly fueled that one themselves.

3) Where did your product defensiveness come from?

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[JanS]

oh, good grief…people use what they like..both Macs and PC’s. Opinions are a dime a dozen. We PC users do get tired of Mac users looking down their noses at us like were imbeciles for using the product we use. That’s where the attitude comes from Christopher. If you think they’re better , then by all means, keep getting them. But stop, please stop, telling us how wrong we are. That is NOT cool. It’s condescending…and doesn’t befit you.

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[christopherboffoli]

The “I’m a Mac” commercials? Is that where the whole “Apparently I’m not cool enough to use a Mac” sentiment comes from? I think the genius of that campaign was that the PC guy was actually a really likable character. It totally wouldn’t have worked if you just had a smug kid saying I’m cool and he’s not. It was about showing how elegant and intuitive things can be on the Mac platform.

Jan, no one was looking down their nose or telling you that you were wrong for using a PC. I didn’t see any of that in this thread. What I was responding to was people being dismissive of Macs for the wrong reasons. True, people use what they prefer (or can afford). But people have a tendency to stick with what they know when something else might be much better for them. Like some kind of behavioral inertia.

I’ve used both Macs and PCs extensively. And I’ve worked in plenty of offices with PCs in which weird, frustrating things would happen just about every day. A PC that was printing fine a minute ago would no longer be sending a file to the printer despite all of the settings being the same. PCs bogged down with spyware and viruses. Having to download and install drivers for just about everything you connected to the machine. I’d see colleagues struggle and pull their hair out every day for stupid problems that would cut into time and productivity in a big way. And then I’d go home and use my Mac which always “just worked.”

Sure, I’ve had issues with Macs too. Hardware components that failed, or things that didn’t work as they should. But compared to the PC issues, the problems were always few and far between.

Opinions ARE a dime a dozen. Which is why I attached links supporting the idea that huge numbers of people are finally making the move to Apple (half of all Apple store visitors are first time buyers and new Mac users), not because they are smug and think they are cooler than everyone else, or are rich enough to purchase SO expensive Macs, but because they’ve finally realized that they don’t need to continue to struggle with poorly designed products from the PC realm.

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[Carson]

Hogwash Chris,

I love Macs, I owned the first Mac, the first Mac Portable (17 pounds) they make great computers, but their market share is minimal (never more than mid 5%) and has been for years.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11

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[Ken]

You need to remember that to some this is a religious argument.

The concept for some is the same. I use everything Apple so since I only use the best, Apple is the best so everyone else is a heretic, ignorant of the One True Way or misguided.

Apple apologetics would be the techno-theological term for this argument.

And Lo we have someone on the net doing a good job of linking a philosopher (political theorist) with Apple.

http://anomalogue.com/blog/2010/11/02/arendtian-apple-fanboy-apologetics/

Much like Christianist insist on trying to define Atheism as a religion, Apple fans insist on trying to equate Apple and Microsoft.

A PC is agnostic. Anyone who wishes to can write an operating system that will run on a PC. They can even write an OS that will only run on a tiny subset of all PC’s if they like. The hardware is not designed by the OS. The OS is written or changed as the hardware evolves.

Apple is a software company that writes for a tiny subset of the hardware that is out there.

Since the hardware is limited, the software can be written to narrowly function on specific devices. Anyone who tries to profit from Apples hardware is litigated out of existence.

Apple makes some mighty fine software. Time machine is unparalleled in both function and usability. But it is not running on magical hardware. Apple makes the same mistakes and buys the same hardware as everyone else within their limited subset.

Even design flaws (like non swap/replace batteries) are touted as innovations.

Sure a macbook pro is a fine machine and the basic included software is designed to run well on it. But the productivity software used on it comes mainly from Microsoft or Adobe.

If price is no object and you are easily swayed by advertising, then a mac becomes more desirable than any PC regardless of the function you or your work require of a computer.

Those in graphic arts, publishing and film production businesses probably are making a choice that makes sense. Some will remember a time when Apple catered almost exclusively to these industries and PC’s had neither the CPU or the GPU power to compete.

This is no longer true but sticking with what you know is a powerful and logical incentive.

Microsoft has to write its software so that other developers and hardware manufacturers can hook their software and drivers onto and into the OS. This makes for a huge codebase and adding in the promised functions required of large corporate clients, make for some truly spectacular bugs, holes and fixes (or not). But they do not design hardware. Those doing research use flavors of unix or lower level languages that interact direct with the hardware.

One of those flavors of unix (BSD) became the base for OSX. Steve Jobs has been attempting to create a usable layer to hide unix from the end user since the NeXt computer in 1985.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j02b8Fuz73A

I fix and use all kinds of computers and any operating system. My laptops come with various versions of windows and the value of all the laptops in the house do not equal the cost of a mid range mac.

The PC’s nearly all dual boot with one flavor or another of Unix. One runs osx 10.5.6, XP and Win7.

I personally cannot justify the cost of a mac but I cannot justify the cost of a smart phone either. Each person has to evaluate their needs, wants and religious preferences to choose which hardware and software they need. I am not offended by some who have preferences and needs different from my own, but I can but try to make sure everyone has the whole story.

The magical parts of the christian bible are all recorded as applying to the Egyptian God Horus long before Jesus was born, but as long as some can gain psychological equilibrium, comfort or guidance from the aggregate myths that are the Bible, then it has value in our society.

But some will insist that makes me a heretic. :)

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[christopherboffoli]

Carson: True, Mac marketshare is smaller than PCs (the latter are sold in many more places and produced by many more manufacturers than Macs). But Apple’s marketshare growth is outpacing PC growth. And again, more than half of all retail traffic in Apple retail stores is first-time Mac buyers. But that’s just in computing. What those marketshare numbers fail to capture are computing devices that run the iOS like the iPad and iPhone. I expect that is why Apple’s stock price (and market cap) over the past five years has surged while Microsoft’s has stagnated and Dell’s has plunged.

http://gigaom.com/apple/mac-market-share-surges-in-u-s/

Ken: I understand how the comparison to religion fits. Except that religion is often rooted in beliefs in things that might not be real. Every day I realize the actual benefits of using Macs in my workflow. There is tangible benefit for me, not something based in myth and faith. I’ve seen you repeatedly say that Macs are not “magic” and have the same innards as PCs. I understand that. But if you were to put a Macbook Pro down next to a big, clunky Dell laptop I’d be hard pressed to believe you if you said there is little difference in the two. For people who appreciate design as I do, there is no question that Apple integrates good industrial design into consumer products like few other companies. They also spend a lot of time focusing on the user experience.

You could look at the PC world as being more “open” because the Windows OS can run on machines by an array of manufacturers. But in another way, as you’ve touched on, this is a weakness because the OS has to play nice with so much hardware and as such has become a bloated mess of code and in many respects more of a target for viruses and malware.

Most companies would be lucky to launch one industry-changing product in their lifetime. Apple has had several. Their record of real innovation is much longer and more distinguished than certain other companies that copy Apple’s innovation, water them down, and push them out to the mass market as their own. Or better yet, companies with huge amounts of money and armies of talent that do much more buying up of small tech companies than making their own innovations and in the process miss huge market opportunities: like the iTunes Store, the iPod, the iPhone and the iPad.

I disagree that the productivity software on Macs “comes mainly from Microsoft or Adobe.” The way Apple integrates its own hardware and software is a definite advantage for the Apple ecosystem. The iLife suite (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, Garageband, iWeb) that ships with every Mac is a huge value. Not to mention how also included software like Address Book, iCal, Safari and Mail so easily helps me to manage contacts, mail and calendars across my own range of Apple hardware (iMac, Macbook Air, iPhone, iPad, AppleTV) with minimal configuration. Apple’s Aperture professional photo editing program has been indispensable to me, both in managing my workflow for my photography work for the West Seattle Blog and for editing and archiving tens of thousands of editorial and fine art images. As a filmmaker I couldn’t imaging editing something without Apple’s Final Cut Pro. It really is one of the best products on the market. Many major Hollywood movies rely on it.

I’ve used some alternative software, in many of these areas, on PCs and have found the user experience to be not as well thought out and the look-and-feel to be less “pretty” and tasteful.

It is also an old, outdated idea that Macs are primarily of value to creative people. I’ve used Mac laptops in business and have found them to be much more reliable and sensible for me than equivalent PC products. Apple’s office productivity suite iWork (Pages, Numbers and Keynote) is much more elegant than Microsoft’s Office, Excel and Powerpoint, respectively. But they also work interchangeably with MS Office. Especially over the last five years I’ve anecdotally seen a huge advance in the number of Apple laptops being used in business and academia (running OSX or Windows or both) outside of the realm of creative fields. And I’m constantly reading about how enterprise is expanding their use of Macs, iPhones and iPads at a rapid rate.

Does Apple always make the best choices for me? No. You’ve touched on the non-removable battery issue. Many users would like to be able to swap batteries. But I think it is disingenuous to say that Apple pushed this out and called it innovation. Apple designers have said that they were looking for ways to make their laptops lighter and smaller. They realized that the ability to swap a battery added weight and used up space. So they instead have been working on batteries with longer lifespans to negate the need to swap out batteries.

Sure, at the end of the day Macs are still computers. They are intricate. They have bugs. Sometimes things don’t work. But in 32 years of using Apple products (even during the dark years of the late 80’s and early 90’s when they were truly crap-tastic) I can honestly say that the products Apple is putting out now are better than anything I have used before. It is not so much from blind religion but positive experience that I’m delighted to see more and more people moving to the Mac.

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[Carson]

I didn’t say smaller, I said staying the same. The pie is getting bigger, but their share is staying the same. Besides, you know where the growth is coming from and its not from the PC/OS business in Apple. I am an PC guy these days and I still have 4 ipods and an ipad, they are doing it right finally. I also read that Apple has 40% of all Cell Phone profits. Thats carriers and Manuf combined. Between selling the iphone, the kickbacks from ATT and all the apps and itunes that is a cash cow much the way windows is for MS. The key, can they hold it? I went Droid for my phone and so have most of my friends, so that might be slipping a bit for them.

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[christopherboffoli]

Carson: I’ve seen lots of reports supporting Apple’s growth in marketshare. So I’m not sure why those reports don’t jive with your numbers. But Apple certainly isn’t selling FEWER Macs. In fact they keep setting records each quarter. So there might be a bit of witchcraft in how various analysts size the market. The number of Macintosh computers (desktop and laptops) sold in the first three quarters of this year:

Q1: 3.36 million Macs, 33% increase year-over-year

Q2: 2.94 million Macs, 33% increase year-over-year

Q3: 3.89 million Macs, 27% increase year-over-year

But really the other point you make about iPhones and iPads demonstrates that the whole marketshare issue moot anyway. First, Apple doesn’t need to have a large percentage of the market to be hugely profitable. And the computer industry as a whole is undergoing a rapid transition to mobile hardware and web services. Apple’s continued innovation with products like the iPhone and the iPad (and AppleTV to some extent) spreads their bets nicely and diversifies their income stream. The billion dollar apps market makes lots of money for developers. But I’m not so sure Apple makes a lot from it. The iTunes store is probably break-even in terms of revenue. But it drives people to the pods, pads and phones on which Apple does make a handsome profit.

I’m not sure that products like Droid and Android smartphones necessarily present a challenge for Apple. First, if you took a snapshot of what the design/form factor of “competitive” brands looked like before and after the introduction of the iPhone in 2007, it is not hard to see how Apple’s innovation has the capacity to change the whole market. Not only does much of the hardware now look similar to the iPhone, but the interfaces, the use of touchscreens and the use of apps all strongly emulate Apple. Apple’s capacity to bring innovative design to market really raises all boats. They push the competition to do better.

There will always be “me-too” products, some of which might even have individual features that are more appealing than the current iPhone model. Providing that those other manufacturers don’t impinge on Apple patents (and some of them may) competition is always good, if for no other reason than it gives people a choice, especially if they can’t stomach AT&T enough to buy an iPhone. Lots of companies sought to challenge the iPod. I lost count of the number of portent-filled news stories about how the Microsoft Zune would kill the iPod. Three years after coming to market, no one seems to be able to stop the progress of the iPhone. Many are trying to come up with their own version of an iPad. But as long as Apple keeps innovating (and despite being 34 years old the company innovates like a start-up) everyone benefits, including people who prefer Apple and people who prefer other choices. It is really win-win for everyone.

Well, not everyone:

Microsoft: The Edsel of the 21st century: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/05/technology/05soft.html

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[Carson]

Christopher,

Yes, they are selling more, but so is everyone else. Their marketshare is pretty much what it is. Stable. That being said, its not all about market share. Macs typically cost double what a PC with similar features is priced at. The Mac is better built, but not double. They are making some huge margins on everything they sell. I am not knocking Apple, I have never found an MP3 player that competes and we are addicted to the ipad.

BTW, you are way off base in regards to the apps. Apple is making a killing. They don’t develop, they don’t have any R&D costs. They approve it, they host the store and they take a cut. The business model is genius.

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[christopherboffoli]

Carson: Again, I guess it depends on how you look at it:

US PC market share: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/10/apple-breaks-10-market-share-in-us-lenovo-climbs-globally.ars

How Not to Underestimate Apple’s Market Share: http://www.thevirtualcircle.com/2010/03/how-not-to-underestimate-apples-market-share/

CNET: Apple gaining North American market share: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10044204-37.html

Apple’s Market Surge in the PC World: http://bit.ly/9tZeTc

Another point worth noting too is that when a PC is sold, Microsoft makes no money on the hardware part of the sale, only on the license for the software, the latter of which also cuts into the profit of the respective hardware maker. When Apple sells a Mac they profit from both the hardware and the software. But it seems to me that unless you include the iOS in market share numbers then you’re only looking at a part of the picture. Awfully muddy waters too considering that many PC owners own iPads and iPhones.

If I’m “way off” in my assessment of the profitability of apps for Apple then you should probably send a memo to Apple’s CFO Peter Oppenheimer as it is he who keeps repeating the fact at earnings conferences that neither the App Store or the iTunes Store create much revenue for Apple. In truth, less than 20% of available apps are paid apps and the average selling price is $1.99. But I’m happy that Apple has created this huge market and that anyone capable of spending $99 for the SDK and investing the time can write and sell apps and make money.

Macs are double the cost of PCs? Cmon. Really? Isn’t that a bit of apples and oranges (pun unintended)?

And again, there is value beyond price. If you compared a PC and Mac of comparable features (including features like magsafe power cords and backlit keyboards), took into account Apple’s excellent OS and included suite of applications, calculated the extra cost of comparable software for the PC in addition to an anti-virus/spyware package and maybe also the value the Apple gear will retain at resale time when you’re ready to upgrade..all that adds up to something. I’m not even talking about the chiropractor bills you’re going to need carrying a huge, slab of an HP laptop on your shoulder through the airport…with its separate power brick the size of a Bakery Nouveau twice-baked croissant. :-)

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[Carson]

Can I get a twice baked almond croissant with the kool aid? You win. Actually, as has been proven, you can twist any set of numbers to suit your own needs, as I easily demonstrated and you counter demonstrated.

PS, Google gives away the SDK, I just got mine after they made me wait a few weeks….

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[christopherboffoli]

Carson: I’ll give you two twice-baked and a snickerdoodle cookie as I figure you’re need the calories if you’re toting around a PC laptop which has a size and weight only slightly less than that of the floating dock the water taxi uses. :-)

I was just looking at the details for the iOS SDK the other day. Free is definitely better than $99. But some people are making some serious bank developing apps. Is Google’s profit sharing about the same as the App Store’s?

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[redblack]

after slogging through this call-and-response, i’m tempted to install linux, and get a laptop with linux, too.

like everyone else who utters such threats, though, i’m a little scared.

but to paraphrase neal stephenson, microsoft-based PC’s are like station wagons – which everyone is buying simply because everyone else buys them. but they’re affordable and useful.

macs are like fuel-efficient ferraris – cool, slick, and versatile, but expensive.

linux is like having a lightweight, high-speed, impregnable tank.

that flies.

and is free.

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[christopherboffoli]

A couple of interesting OS X/ Ubuntu comparisons:

http://shapeshed.com/journal/ubuntu_v_osx_smackdown/

http://regebro.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/ubuntu-vs-os-x-the-deathmatch/

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[redblack]

thanks, christopher. from the first link, i think this sums it up for me:

“If you are comfortable searching for solutions to your problems then you can pretty much do or get anything with Ubuntu (that’s the power of Linux). If you like things to ‘just work’ then you are probably better off sticking with OSX for now.”

i like a customizable OS. i admit i’ve never done it on an apple machine, but making windows look and feel the way i want is like (i imagine) giving birth.

cost is a huge factor, too.

and given my socialist leanings, i like the idea of buying a “blank” hard drive and installing my own OS. it’s the way i did it for a decade before software licensing became all the rage. i like my OS simple, and i don’t want it to do things automagically, because what seems to be intuitive to most people kind of makes my skin crawl.

i guess i’m a control freak when it comes to computers; but they are here to serve us, and not vice-versa.

just my $.02.

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[Smitty]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/211402/reliability_and_service_laptops.html

Some recent info if still researching.

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[mrhineh]

Jiggers, some else is surely more proficient in this area since networking can be confusing for some people. But you might want to think ahead as to how you will use your new machine in the future as technology evolves. If you want to download and view movies, using a wireless internet connection to today’s tv’s is a great option, and much better viewing (although not as portable). Many laptops now have HDMI plugs which simplifies connections with compatible tv’s or monitors (with proper cables). Something else to consider for down the road, if movies are a passion when you build the wireless connection for your laptop.

Ken: great insights, thank you. Repair issues should be a consideration for ANY purchase. Your knowledge is invaluable.

Apples: are not for everyone, as a finance person, I hate Mac’s. But for graphics people, its fantastic. All about your end-use. The attitude didn’t surprise me one bit. But never fear. Yes, Mac’s are on the increase. So are the hackers looking to compromise them. Hackers like big, mainstream targets and that bullseye is growing. Love the i4 reception bug, Steve had to really swallow hard on that one :))

Disclouse: I like some apple products. I like some Android products. I own a Wintel. I’ve had a Dell laptop for 5 years now, updated the HD and RAM, still works great. I like BB push email. Eveyone’s happy!

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