I’m not the biggest animal activist for sure, but…

[PrayingMan-tis-i]

Admittedly, I am not the biggest animal activist around, but I do care for the welfare and treatment of animals. What an ironic thought, really. Anyway, while I’m indifferent to whatever happens to coyotes or exotic cats, etc., but I do believe it’s wrong and irresponsible for people to own the latter. I’d also take issue to simple cruelty, which is really very subjective and relative – not everyone will agree and that’s fine, so long as we can be respectful of each others opinion.

For a research lab to boil a monkey alive ( http://www.kirotv.com/news/15189249/detail.html ), however, is too much for me. Yes, these animals are being used to benefit humanity, and they’ll meet the end of their lives for you and I to do it, but how terrible. I’m sure this is a very controversial topic that people can be very passionate about, but let’s be responsible with what’s been left in our care!

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[Anonymous]

Do you eat lobster? Don’t they boil lobster while still alive?

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[Kayleigh]

There’s a special circle of hell for people who are cruel to animals. I don’t think cruelty is subjective; it’s glaringly obvious.

Animals, IMO, have varying levels of sentience, ability to bond with us, awareness of self, emotionality, etc. Monkeys in particular are smart and aware in ways lobsters are not, and in any case, this monkey wasn’t eaten; it was tortured carelessly and needlessly with caustic chemicals.

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[Erik]

Non mammals only have reptilian brains, no ability to bond, no emotions, etc. Whereas all mammals have a neo-cortex with limbic structures in their brains that allow them to bond with other beings…this is why you see orphaned animals of one species being raised by a mother lion or some other big mammal that seems weird to us. A lobster or your pet snake don’t have this capacity to care about other beings, not even their young.

When humans torture anything it’s not because they don’t have the capacity to care, but for some reason this has been stunted.

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[Ken]

Given the current last rung of medical testing before human trials, there is nothing wrong with using animals for medical testing and primates are the last line of defense between an amoral industry (big Pharma) and a now subverted FDA.

If we have another industry friendly administration, I suspect they will dispense with the monkeys and go straight to the homeless and prisoners.

But the article above just shows needless cruelty and abuse.

If you don’t care about the primates, note that such abuse and mistreatment can even alter the results of the testing if they were abused during last stage drug trials.

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[Anonymous]

I don’t know. I think it’s a little hypocritical to designate why, for one type of animal something is cruel and inhumane and not so for another. That’s a horrible article, but I also think it’s sickening to hear the lobster scream as they get boiled alive. Believe me, they literally scream. I was a vegetarian for 4 years, not anymore, because of the cruelty of the animals I and everyone eats. Have you seen what they do to cows? First hand? An animal is an animal and there are numerous things done to them to not only better our lives, but just maintain it as we know it.

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[JoB]

why is it that it is so much easier to butcher an animal once it is dead than to kill it for butchering. It’s a paradox. i can do one… and eat what is butchered.. but have great difficulty with the other.

And i don’t buy the premise that one type of creature (mammals) is more or less sentient than others.

I live with dogs and am quite sure they are far more intelligent and aware than most scientists give them credit for.

And i have watched insect colonies. have you ever noticed that a spider generally will freeze the moment you look at them? They are certainly aware of our body language and understand it’s likely consequences.

I don’t think i could be intentionally cruel to any living creature… but i can’t rule out the possible necessity.

Was that clip one of them? i don’t know and never will because i won’t watch it.

And no, i don’t believe that what i can’t or won’t see is just fine.

humans are ful of paradoxes.

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[PrayingMan-tis-i]

Yes, I do eat lobster, but not often. Why not state your point, new resident? KAYLEIGH – My point about subjectiveness is glaringly obvious to me and you and even those who could care less about animals or the enviornment, period, but that’s just it – not all would see this as cruel, which is partly why I also pointed out that passion runs deep and differently for all of us. Yes, I have seen cruelty to animals firsthand, no, it’s not nice, and no, I wouldn’t do it.

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[PrayingMan-tis-i]

JoB – Good post!

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[Kayleigh]

By the way, I don’t eat lobster and am 85% vegetarian. I eat a little poultry and fish because my body has problems absorbing iron (the iron in meat is better absorbed, they tell me). But never beef, pork, or exotic meats or animal parts. (though I’ve had doctors tell me to eat a cheeseburger, which is actually the only red meat I miss, I rarely do it.)

Some people really can’t see the difference in sentience between a spider and a dog? A dog that bonds to you, expresses emotional pain (depression, anxiety, sadness), shows loyalty, learns commands, expresses affection, can be trained to help people, etc.? I think this is an important distinction, because I’ve heard people ridicule animal rights activists because they think we don’t draw any lines at all (that is, creating a straw man to make themselves feel better about hunting or eating meat.)

That doesn’t mean I think any cruelty to any of them is okay, and I hope one day to be able to be a total vegetarian. But at age 2 I was drinking liquid iron, I take supplements every day, and I still get anemic. No meat makes it worse.

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[Anonymous]

Pray.. I don’t know if you were being sarcastic or not, but I believe I did state my opinion in so many words. All I’m saying is that people should think about what they eat and then think about what is done in order for them to eat those things. I will never understand people that complain about animal cruelty and then go eat lobster or a cheeseburger! It seems Kayleigh is doing her part by hardly eating any meat. She, or someone who is entirely vegetarian, is someone who can talk about cruelty to animals. They don’t contribute to it.

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[Anonymous]

And, same as you, Kayleigh, I also had to start eating meat again after 4 years. I first became a vegetarian because of the way those animals are handled that we eat. However, for health reasons, I have to eat meat and if it’s me or a cow, I choose me. I am perfectly aware of the cruelty involved in the meat, whatever kind, that I eat, but it’s part of me being healthy. It’s horrible, but it’s life. The article that started this thread, however, seems something else entirely. What exactly was gained from boiling the monkey? Why hasn’t that facility been shut down? I didn’t read the whole thing, too disturbing.

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[JoB]

kayleigh, of course i see a difference between a spider and a dog in the way they interact with humans.

I am simply saying we are making a lot of assumptions when we believe that only those living creatures that we have proven sentience to our standards have any kind of awareness.

Some people talk to their plants you know:)

there is a reason some vegetarians have had to go back to meat to survive. one thing eating another is simply nature’s way.

one thing torturing another is not.

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[Anonymous]

JoB… Very well put!! But why do they have to torture the animals that we have to eat? Unless we live on our own farms where we eat everything that we grow and raise and do it our way, we are contributing to animal cruelty.

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[JoB]

newresident..

have you discovered the sunday market? you don’t need to worry about anything you eat from there having been tortured and i got some outstanding italian sausage and smoked ham there last week.

they say the same is true of the PCC market… and it is supposed to be local. (I haven’t gone to one of their meetings yet. still too much like a supermarket to me.)

i just like to look the guy who sells me the meat in the eye when i buy it and i like him to have had a hand in producing it as well.

right now the pickings are a little slim as it is winter.. but it improves in the spring.

i am also investigating farm shares… force me to be more creative and timely in my cooking:)

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[Kayleigh]

I think people can draw the line in place that works for them, and should be encouraged to do so. It kinda not fair to label someone hypocritical because they don’t draw the line in the same place you do. What’s that saying–consistency is the hallmark of a small mind? :-)

It’s not a black or white thing. If we can convince some people to give up pork, or eat less of it….or not eat domesticated goats or alligator eyelashes or other weird things…or ask where their meat comes from like JoB does…then it’s all to the good. :-)

Eating less meat was easier for me than for most Americans–I gave up pork as a teen and don’t miss it (except my inner chef craves bacon crumbles sometimes in dishes. There’s no substitute for bacon.) I just never got excited about meat. Now give me a slice of artisan bread or some fresh pasta, and I’m excited.

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[Anonymous]

right, i have a small mind. You’ve either missed my point, KayLeigh, or are having difficulty understanding. Doesn’t matter. It’s been entertaining!

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[Kayleigh]

NewResident, the small mind thing was a joke; not directed at you. I understand your point; I just disagree.

You don’t get to call people hypocritical because they don’t take their beliefs to the extent you think they should. That’s black/white either/or thinking, and not respectful either.

By your thinking, we shouldn’t walk on the grass because it might hurt the grass and only eat fallen apples.

I prefer the approach of encouraging people to follow their hearts to the extent they can. It’s more positive and helps people feel good about making humane choices. Even small sacrifices, small donations, etc. help animals and help the planet.

If a friend of mine was going to give up pork, I wouldn’t call her a hypocrite because she still intended to eat beef. I’d smile because a pig somewhere won’t get tortured or slaughtered, and her arteries wouldn’t get clogged with pork fat, and a pig farm has a smidgen less motivation to pollute the environment with pig poo.

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[JoB]

Kayleigh,

We all have to make our own decisions about what we will and won’t do in life… and to those of us who see all living things as… well.. living, it seems hypocritical to draw a moral line in the sand about not eating certain of god’s creatures but choosing to eat others… at least if it’s done on a moral basis.

However… i admit that i have realized that no matter how consistent i try to be in my life.. i am one of the biggest hypocrites out there on more than one issue. oops… i’m human. that sainthood thing didn’t work out for me after all:)

that said, i don’t choose to support agribusiness whenever possible because i want my animal protein reared in a humane environment without added hormones and antibiotics. (that ham and some beans are on my stove right now). I want my vegetation grown in an organic environment whenever possible… preferably within 100 miles of where i live. Preferably, I’d grow it myself because i just love harvesting it. that’s my preference.

i confess. i eat blueberries and mint in winter and i know they aren’t grown here… and the beans in my pot were commercially produced:( i just make a strong preference for buying organic and local when i can.

and… i eat processed sugars. i am smart enough to feel guilty about the health impact and that guilt limits the amount i eat… i try to eat cane sugar because i like the taste better… pure cane sugar is yummy… but again… it’s all preference.

There was a time when i was vegan and even stirred my millet in one direction because it was said to release cosmic something… but i was young then and believed in absolutes. this living thing sure does put a crimp in that:)

Now i just try to be kind.. to my neighbors… to the earth… to my body… to myself. Turns out that affects what i eat;-)

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[Anonymous]

Let me TRY and make myself clear. I don’t care what people eat! I was simply trying to point out that, yes, it’s horrible what they did to that monkey, but if you eat lobster, they boil them alive before you eat them. I find it amusing and “small minded” when people complain about animal cruelty and yet contribute to it by eating certain foods. I used the term “hypocritical” after someone posted something to the extent that it’s ok to boil lobster alive because they don’t bond with other lobster. Perhaps what they meant to say was, “it’s ok to boil lobster because I like eating it”. Cruelty to ANY animal, regardless of it’s mental capacity, is horrible. I think we all agree on that. JoB, you know what you’re talking about, and you live your life, it seems, in a great way. I’m definitely no “saint”, I eat meat and I’m fully aware of what possibly happened to that particular animal in order for me to enjoy it. It’s just frustrating to listen to people who want to say one thing is SO bad, but not SO bad if it benefits them. It was just something to think about.

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[Kayleigh]

NewResident, like many conservatives I know, you seem to become agitated when people won’t stuff their views into the same binary black/white slots that you do. And when people simply don’t see the world that way, you tell them they don’t get it.

One of the many reasons why I don’t see eye-to-eye with very many conservatives.

Most Americans aren’t going to become vegetarians, but I think some–some–might consider choosing humanely killed meat, or might write a letter against boiling monkeys, or might eat one fewer meat-based-meal a week. The way to promote social change, IMO, is to not reduce all behavior down to a common denominator and label people if they don’t toe the line, but to encourage as many “good” behaviors as we can.

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[JoB]

KAYLEIGH & New Member….

I know more than one conservative who is an animal activist. And if this forum is any example, conservatives aren’t the only ones quick to agitation when their viewpoints are questioned.

this politically based name calling only inflames tempers and prevents the exchange of ideas.

I see no reason not to become a vegetarian… it’s a not so simple choice not to eat meat… but if that choice is based on wanting to stop cruelty to animals… then it’s time to stop cruelty to animals.. all animals.

if that choice is a reaction to some incendiary video seen somewhere about someone’s farming and slaughtering practices… then it’s time to vote with your pocketbook about those practices… but not necessarily time to become vegetarian.

this is why I view the choice not to eat one meat but to eat another as a personal choice… not a moral one.

That said… i make personal choices every day.. as we all do.

But if we are really concerned about the cruelty to animals, a good place to start is with humans.

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[Anonymous]

Any KayLeigh, you seem to me like most liberals I’ve met. Too defensive and argumentative. I simply made a point. That didn’t really justify you stereotyping me and knocking conservatives everywhere! This was never a political debate, but of course, being liberal, I guess you have to try and make it such.

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[JoB]

girls, girls, girls…

i am a liberal.. the rest of my family is conservative. when we sit down to dinner, we all choose our foods based on personal preference and our converstaion based on political debate.

Needless to say, family dinners can get heated because we don’t all agree and being stubborn none of us can agree simply to disagree.

it is because we all think that everyone in the room is entitled to a point of view and because they make such good points that our conversation gets passionate. Each and every person in the room believes that if the other person just had the facts then they would be bright enough to put two and two together and see reason.

Doesn’t happen. We all have pretty strong opinions. and yet, we continue to try because what we know is that regardless of politics, we are all far more alike than not. and more often than not, we all learn something new.

When it comes to food choices, I don’t choose to cook lobster because regardless of hearing perfectly rational explanations of why that isn’t screaming… i am just plain not comfortable with it.

However, if someone brings lobster… well all bets are off.

So much for my principles ;-)

I enjoy the debate of ideas… because in the end.. the more we talk… the more we find we are all full of wonderful human contradictions… that most of us aren’t comfortable with the scream of the lobster and still most of us aren’t going to pass it up. it’s human nature.

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[Anonymous]

JoB- Loved the analogy! I noticed that you were a writer and I’m curious what context you wrote in?

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[Author]

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