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January 7, 2011 at 1:19 am #711649
redblackParticipanthooper: i want you to clearly and explicitly tell me how someone making $40,000 per year or less is supposed to save against 2 years of being jobless.
even if such a person has gainful employment during boom times, living below the median income doesn’t allow for such luxuries.
explain it.
no internet? to cable tee vee? no cell phone? no health insurance? no car?
now put yourself in the position of someone working at service or clerical or construction for a living; someone who couldn’t afford college without crushing debt – and trying to feed a family – and tell me how that person saves for rainy days.
i dare you.
January 7, 2011 at 1:56 am #711650
miwsParticipanthooper, turns out you don’t have to move out of the Country, as I suggested on another thread, after all!
Your Utopia is right here in the good ol’ USofA!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/News/arizona-transplant-deaths/story?id=12559369
Let us know when you’re leaving, so we can see you off!
And, y’know what? I’ll bet upon hearing of this, our wonderful new US Speaker of the House Boehner had tears streaming down his face, proclaiming “I want this opportunity for ALL Americans!”
Mike
January 7, 2011 at 2:02 am #711651
JoBParticipantJanuary 7, 2011 at 2:16 am #711652
dawsonctParticipantI don’t know if any of you have seen any of these “X,000 page” Congressional bills, but they are double-spaced and written in a REALLY LARGE font (larger than that), and every blank page is counted.
If it was printed in normal sized font it wouldn’t be much larger than a paperback.
Our elected representatives have employees who are paid to read and digest that stuff for our elected representatives. If their staff never got around to reading it, you REALLY have to question the management abilities of certain elected representatives.
—
Again, you can’t perfect legislation until it is passed into law. I don’t mean that in a vague or amorphous sense, I mean the way our government is set up, you ACTUALLY can’t perfect legislation until it becomes law. You pass the best bill the opposition allows you to pass, and if it proves to be effective, future generations of legislators work to make it better. If it proves to be destructive and wrong (long acceptance of the Plessy Doctrine, 18th amendment), it gets repealed eventually, and passes into history.
—
If I am wrong, please point out the historic precedents for legislation that has been perfect and un-amended since they were passed it into law.
January 7, 2011 at 2:25 am #711653
miwsParticipantI understand, JoB.
I did get a little chuckle out of all of it. One of the Google Chrome Spellcheck suggestions as a correct spelling for “Boehner”, happens to be my preferred pronunciation of his name.
Mike
January 7, 2011 at 4:00 am #711654
JanSParticipantoh, Mike, we sooo think alike. And I’m so glad I don’t live in AZ, now that I need a transplant. How reprehensible that it could happen in this country….what a travesty.
January 7, 2011 at 4:24 am #711655
hooper1961Memberredblack $40,000 is is $3,333/month
– $300 fica et al
– $400 renting a room in a home
– $100 transportation/bus
– $200 food
– $100 clothes
– $300 high deductible health insurance
– $500 average to fund high deductible HSA (you keep it if you don’t use it)
– $100 entertainment
– $100 telephone
– $900 available to save
January 7, 2011 at 4:42 am #711656
maplesyrupParticipantHere you go, dawson, find them yourself. :) There are plenty in there. http://www.house.gov/
January 7, 2011 at 4:48 am #711657
dawsonctParticipantReally MS? Each one of those was perfect and beyond need of amendmant? I find that hard to believe, and so do you, obviously, or you would have ACTUALLY found an example.
January 7, 2011 at 4:55 am #711658
miwsParticipantAnd, of course, the republican Governor of AZ wants to cut corporate taxes:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/politics/article_e6c59ec8-fcbd-11df-895c-001cc4c002e0.html
Mike
January 7, 2011 at 4:58 am #711659
dawsonctParticipantDO you ACTUALLY have an answer, or are you just obfuscating because you don’t understand legislative processes?
Believe me, I stand back all the time and say “why can’t they see the obvious!?” But I know I don’t have all the answers, so I am willing to accept that something that doesn’t seem right to me may, in time, prove to be the best way to go. I also know that no one person has all the answers or has absolute power over our legislative process, and that compromises will inevitably leave most dissatisfied, but I honestly don’t see a more fair process.
January 7, 2011 at 5:20 am #711660
JanSParticipantHooper…not everyone has the opportunity to just rent a room somewhere for 400 bucks a month. I have my own place, and I work here. I live alone..and my rent is twice that. There goes the insurance money. I suppose you’d say that’s my CHOICE. But…if I rent a room in someone’s home (which ain’t an easy thing to do), I would still need a place for business. Why would I pay money for a separate office when I can do it at home? You give these “examples” that don’t even touch on reality. And I’m betting you have your own home, and live alone.
January 7, 2011 at 5:21 am #711661
JanSParticipantoh, and I don’t even come close to making 40K a year…
January 7, 2011 at 2:48 pm #711662
redblackParticipanthooper: that’s before taxes and the numbers you cite work for a single person.
i asked you about someone feeding kids on that income. which necessitates something more like $1 per square foot minimum for rent.
$200 a month for food? you have to be joking. you must not be the one who shops for groceries in your house.
and since most people have high-deductible insurance without HSA’s, it’s more like $600 – $1000 per month – minimum – for health insurance depending on the number of people covered, their ages, health history, family history, etc.
$40,000 gross, less 15% for taxes, is $34,000 per year. more like $2833 per month. just over $700 per week.
– $800 rent for a small 2bd/1ba
– $600 health insurance
– $600 groceries (if you want your kids to be healthy)
– $100 for low-end cable/internet/phone
– $100 clothing (value village a few times a year; fred meyer sometimes)
– $30 electricity (are water/sewer/garbage paid?)
– renters’ insurance?
– stuff for kids (to keep them from killing you?)
– is public school really free? books?
– what about day care, if needed?
– does this person’s job require a car? like a construction worker?
– $100 for car insurance
– $150-250 to lease a car or make low car payments
unless you’ve been there and have to live on it, hooper, it’s almost impossible to save with that kind of income, and very likely that you’ll rack up some credit card debt, too, for things like car maintenance and occasionally paying that high deductible.
but i commend you for trying.
and don’t forget that you’d have to save enough to pay rent, keep making premium payments, and buy groceries for – what? – 6 months? more? what about the “99’ers?”
January 7, 2011 at 3:55 pm #711663
JoBParticipanthooper 1961
just for giggles…
feed yourself for 200/month for the next month
no dipping into that pantry or freezer
no meals out.
i am betting you can’t do it.
I know this because 3 years ago hubby came to Seattle to start his job and lived in one of those temp appts downtown where you start out at 0.
He was frugal.. made a game of buying exactly what he needed and nothing more… shopped very cheaply… and he spent nearly twice that not counting his dinners out.
groceries are more expensive now than they were then.
January 7, 2011 at 3:57 pm #711664
JoBParticipantinteresting Mother Jones article that explains just what has happened to the middle class… with a chart.
if income had grown with inflation… what would wages be now?
interesting.
January 7, 2011 at 3:58 pm #711665
JoBParticipantmaplesyrup
what is it you think the supreme court does with their time?
they spend it tweaking the laws passed by congress.
January 7, 2011 at 7:26 pm #711666
maplesyrupParticipantJoB and dawson,
Not trying to be argumentative here, and it is tangential (here I go again), but…
So since the Supreme Court is forced to clean up legislative messes, and since some resolutions need to be amended (usually in minor ways), we should accept it when congress passes a morass of legislation which has a big degree of uncertain effects? I’m not talking about minor tweaks or minor legislation here, I’m talking about big stuff with the potential for major unintended consequences.
What would you say if the Republicans did that?
January 7, 2011 at 7:55 pm #711667
hooper1961Memberredblack don’t change the rules now; you asked me how someone making $40K a year could save and i provided you an answer. your inquiry said how someone (not a family) could save and it is clearly possible.
– renting a room is a reasonable item
– i pay $350 a month for high deductible health that includes a crap dental thus the $300 for health alone is reasonable
– i spend $300 a month for groceries lots of P & J and some meat. $200 is not unreasonable on a tighter budget.
– a car is a luxury, substantial savings using public transit
redblack it is possible to save with a $40k a year job.
January 8, 2011 at 3:48 am #711668
hooper1961Memberredblack i have provided stats that shows that it is possible to save when making $40k a year. not owning a car and using public transit is a big savings item.
January 8, 2011 at 4:57 am #711669
JoBParticipanthooper1961
so you could only get by with $300/mo on what you have been telling us is an austerity budget with a pantry
but you think someone else should be able to spend a third less…
never mind that the person making that 40k a year often has a family to support..
and doesn’t start with a roof over their head or a car or a kitchen for that matter if they are renting a room ….
more mystery math?
January 8, 2011 at 5:00 am #711670
JoBParticipantmaplesyrup..
i don’t remember saying that i thought the health care bill was a good one. In fact, i have repeatedly said that i thought it was a worthless piece of crap.
however… it is true that bills passed by both parties are often “fine tuned” by our court system or by a subsequent congress.
January 8, 2011 at 6:12 am #711671
hooper1961MemberJoB – redblack asked to design a budget for someone making $40K a year. i provided a budget that works and provides for monthly savings for a person. redblack’s challenge was for someone and i clearly showed that $40k works. redblacks specification was for someone (he did not specify a family that would tighten the budget but with a spouse added income from a second worker could be anticipated and having kids before financial stability is not smart) and it is clearly possible.
my food budget has been about $300/month for a long time, i diligently shop sales, buy manager specials and the like. like i said p and j, spaghetti and what other cost effective items on sale that week.
many people rent rooms with kitchen privileges.
January 8, 2011 at 5:35 pm #711672
JoBParticipanthooper 1961
you diligently shop sales, buy manger specials and the like.. but you still think someone else could manage their food budget for $100 less because ????
You neglect the fact that you started with a pantry because in your story it doesn’t matter… but it does. the cost of providing a basic pantry from scratch is much higher than that of replacing items as they are used up…
“with a spouse added income from a second worker could be anticipated and having kids before financial stability is not smart”
whoa nelly..
in your little fantasy world all things are possible and nothing extra ever happens…
no-one has a good job marries and has kids to find themselves on the unemployment line… and still there 3 years later…
which btw is happening right now to a lot of professional workers.
no-one gets sick.
that high deductible insurance you promote would decimate your fantasy budget.. not to mention likely lose the worker their job
no-one gets disabled eliminating their income.
no-one has the added burden of family members with long term illness or disability..
oh wait.. in your magical world they don’t get to have family members…
no-one is burgled or mugged.
No-one loses their job and has to wait to find another…
That magical spouse doesn’t die without assets.
Yes, people do raise families right here in our neighborhood on $40,000 a year.. but they sure don’t have the kind of disposable income you seem to think they could save.
Hooper …. get thee down to a food bank and volunteer for a few hours.
you obviously need an education that includes some reality tv and i can’t think of a better place to get it than the local food bank.
January 8, 2011 at 7:04 pm #711673
hooper1961Memberjob – yes a $200 a month food budget is doable, i did not say it was easy.
breakfast (cereal, yogurt and orange)
current ~$2/day with cheaper cereal and yogurt $1.50
lunch (p & j sandwich + apple)
current $1.25/day w/ cheaper bread $1.15/day
dinner (varies includes red meats and seafood lots of pasta dishes)
current $6.75/day replacing seafood with chicken and beans can cut the cost to $4.50/day
Thus I do stand corrected ~$215/month for food is needed.
I do not understand the issue with a high deductible insurance, the insurance kicks in after the deductible is paid; this is exactly what insurance is for!
I have never said that a family living on $40k has significant disposable income. Remember redblack’s inquiry asked for a budget for someone and i provided it and it clearly shows someone making $40k/year would have disposable income.
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