get your Gas Tax Holiday calculator right here!

[Ken]

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=13lkzo

Tell us how much you will be saving with the McCain-Clinton plan.

Added bonus, with the McCain version you get to co-sign a loan from China for the billions already promised for this summers highway and bridge rebuilding nationwide.

The Clinton version imagines enough Senators not in the pocket of the oil companies to pass a windfall profits tax and over ride the veto of the oilman in chief. That and the rainbows and ponies that will surely accompany such a momentous occasion, will pay for the money missing from the highway fund.

I save $4.16 based on my current driving pattern.

Another dollar or two and I can get the whole meal deal at McDonald’s.

Is the Zippy burger any cheaper? I will be in for one by labor day.

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[walfredo]

With those 3 plans, only one is made by an adult…

Bloomberg had it right today when he said “it is probably the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard.”

That about sums up the idea of a gas tax holiday, to what again encourage consumption during the slowest period of supply? Thus increasing the price, and taking money from the infrastructure grid, and putting it into the oil companies. Clintons plan is even better, as it goes the extra step of passing laws, and then collecting the tax back from the oil companies! It’s called a circle people…

What McCain and Clinton should be saying, instead of pandering, is I’ll give you $5 this summer if you vote for me in November.

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[JoB]

Walfredo…

there is only one problem with the savings calculator…

it doesn’t bother to factor in the savings for transportation for everything you purchase…

oh.. i forgot.. you write that one off with… “the oil companies will just raise the prices to make more profits anyway… you won’t save anything” rationale… you just change the company category to grocery or furniture or clothing or….

You do realize that when shipping prices go up.. prices go up with them…

but even if we leave that aside… if i continue my current driving pattern.. since i do usually drive large distances in the summer by car.. i will save just under $100.

While that may only be the cost of a dinner for two at some of our local eateries..

i am betting that will make a substantial difference to those who live where public transportation isn’t a possibility and therefore drive similar miles just to work.

There goes that disconnect between the lives that young urban professionals with access to public transportation live… and those lived by the rest of the nation who probably live some distance from public transportation.. and are stuck between a rock and a hard place with gas prices climbing.

Or the disconnect between those who can walk and those who rely on their cars to allow them to get around…

or…

I am sure you get my point…

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[Ken]

JoB

No one is saying it is not *effective* pandering, just that it is stupid.

They don’t call it populism for nothing. The Athenians found that out pretty much the same way we have.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080420213333AAsADzu

By ceding power to the most belligerent “tyrant” who promises safety and tax relief in a time of war.

I calculated the saving on what I drove in NC in the 80’s, 40 miles one way to work.

I saved 55.00. in 90 days.

Sure it sells with those who cannot do the math or don’t understand the realities of the manufactured shortage (no refineries built, middle east war, dollar dropping vs world currencies, shift to euro from dollar on oil futures market) You know, all the things forecast by non DLC democrats from Wes Clark to Jim McDermott and Russ Feingold.

Also note the important part. The tax revenue from gasoline sales stays steady regardless of the price since it is collected per gallon. The more you pay for gasoline, the lower the percentage of the price you pay that goes into the highway fund for the required maintenance and infrastructure replacement. And the higher the profit per gallon for the oil companies.

Only reduced consumption or a pie in the sky full scale pander fest can effect the tax revenue stream required for upkeep on the nations roads and bridges.

Diesel fuel in WA is taxed at the same rate and the same way as gasoline, but other states vary wildly in the differences in gas and diesel tax rates per gallon. The federal tax on diesel is about 6 cents more than for gasoline.

Propose a diesel tax roll back if you like and the price will (in a perfect world) go back to where it was march 10th of this year.

This article does a pretty god job of putting it in perspective.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/beyond-the-barrel/2008/5/1/the-gas-tax-vacation-a-cheap-holiday.html

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[JoB]

Ken,

i get the perspective.. and yes.. one way of looking at it is pandering…

but.. some people are really hurting right now and any relief .. even short term.. helps… even if it is pandering.

I was going to say real relief would be a huge tax on profiteering… but it wouldn’t really, would it?

We needed to invest in alternative fuels and public transportation a long time ago.. and we haven’t.

We need to stop using food for fuel.

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place…

I know all of that. I don’t like it.. but i know it.

But i also know that we aren’t that far from food riots here.. and that the rising cost of fuel isn’t going to make any of this any easier.

At some point… someone has to do something.. anything.. that helps these people… even if all it does is offer token recognition that things aren’t going so well for them. And if it isn’t going to happen in an election year.. when will it happen?

for some families.. the amount they could save this summer will have a direct bearing on what they are able to feed their children.

We are lucky not to have to think about that.

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[Kayleigh]

Wow, another harebrained Republicans scheme that benefits the oil companies, hurts federal programs, and offers a token cookie to the masses, who lap it up as though it were a full nutritious meal.

Whodathunk it?

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[beachdrivegirl]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/01/bloomberg-slams-clintons_n_99698.html

Bloomberg could not have said it any better..

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[beachdrivegirl]

What a joke!!

I work in outside sales and know I will drive to yakima at least twice this summer and the most i would save over this period of time is a whopping $26.99…

Sorry I drive on crappy roads as it is 90% of the time so i really would rather keep payign the little bit extra and not have our roads suffer anymore than the already are…

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[walfredo]

JoB- it’s a basic principle, I get that Clinton’s core base is folks who didn’t finish high school, but I think they taught most of this freshman year.

If you do something to inflate demand, during a period of supply shortage, the price will increase. It’s not some crazy theory, or spin.

What is needed, is someone with vision and leadership to say, the only way to help this problem is to reduce demand and stabalize supply.

There is also another argument that the infrastucture is not being supported anyway, so it is an unjust tax. That essentially is McCain’s argument, and is a basic Republican philosophy. Remove all of the services of value that government provides, and it will be easier to sell the anti-tax, anti-government agenda. If the government is broken, no one will want to expand it.

So, you know what, I even understand McCain’s argument, and his plan is a philosophical debate. It’s an interesting one, now I do think its pandering, but at least it has a real message behind it.

Clinton’s is much worse, the idea that we can take away the taxes, and still fix the roads. She is talking about doing this this summer by the way, her bill would have to get through Bush to get the taxes back from the oil companies :) So, she is saying we can have cake and eat it too. We get the money from the taxes, but don’t pay the taxes. There is no philosophical stand at all. Should we tax gas to provide for our infrastructure and to curb demand? McCain says no. Obama says yes. Clinton says- lets live in a fairytale world instead, and be in favor of both. Quite frankly, there aren’t 3-sides to this issue, only 2 plans are actually plans…

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[rs261]

Just a little information on corn being used for ethanol/biodiesel

MYTH:

Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

FACT: Wet mill ethanol production facilities are also know as corn refineries—and they also producer starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil—all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption.

The corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed to livestock. Ethanol production also results in the production of distillers grains and gluten feed—both of which are fed to livestock as well, helping produce high quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad.

There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest—and some 1.4 billion bushels (about 13 percent) were used in ethanol production. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing average corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.

The tremendous expansion of the ethanol sector raises a key question: Where will ethanol producers get the corn needed to increase their output? With a corn-to-ethanol conversion rate of 2.7 gallons per bushel (a rate that many state-of-the-art facilities are already surpassing), the U.S. ethanol sector will need 2.6 billion bushels per year by 2010—1.2 billion bushels more than it consumed in 2005.

As far as biodiesel is concerned its still a small part of total fuel consumption, with some very cheap biodiesel being made for about 40-80 cents a gallon, from used vegetable oil.

Most of the runup in prices of food is from (in my opinion) global inflation/falling dollar/people refusing to export goods. (Such as rice, which Thailand flirted with closing exports of, and several countries did suspend exports of.)

I know I’m “picking on” one part of the whole discussion, but I just like to make sure people have facts.

As far as the discussion goes, suspending the FEDERAL gas tax is silly, 18.4 cents per gallon will save even the biggest drivers pretty much nothing. The 24.4 cents per gallon on diesel I’m all for suspending, just not the “unleaded” tax. (a boon for the polluting diesel engines I know…but hey, I’m nice sometimes)

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[Ken]

http://www.bluemarbleenergy.net/newsroom.html#pugetsound

Local tie in for an area that needs more research dollars asap.

We currently pay millions of dollars annually to treat sewage to prevent algae blooms. What if we were to pipe that sewage to offshore algae farms and harvest the alge for conversion to biofuels?

Is it cost effective? Who knows? Lab tests seem to indicate it is but only large scale test will tell for sure.

Not gonna happen this summer, but it will never happen under a republican administration.

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[JoB]

Walfredo…

more assumptions… now Clinton supporters are all ignorant people who barely finished high school. no elitism there… is there?

trust me.. i finished high school:) so did a fairly large group of Clinton supporters.

Although, quite frankly it doesn’t take a college education to understand the impact of higher gas prices on middle America…

Doing away with the federal gas tax for three months won’t inflate the demand for summer gasoline much… summer travel does that.

Do the math.. as you like to say.

if you can barely pay for your basic needs in life.. lower gas prices aren’t going to go to finance a summer vacation. they are going to go to food or housing… thus not inflating demand in that the group that needs relief the most.

and those with enough income to travel would do so with or without the gas tax holiday. again.. not changing the impact of summer much.

And yes.. gas prices will remain about where they are now.. instead of inflating for the summer…

You are worried about the gas tax and fixing the roads in the same breath that you are talking about the need for gas prices to get high enough to discourage people driving…

so.. gas should cost more so people who can afford to drive can do so on better maintained roads?

i agree in the long term the only way to tackle this problem is to reduce demand.. but the most viable way to reduce demand is to increase the availability of convenient public transportation.

did you miss the comment from the woman on this blog who is looking for a West Seattle doctor in spite of having a very good Ballard doctor she trusts.. because it is a two hour bus commute to Ballard? That doesn’t say much for the convenience of our public transport system.

now you might write her off because after all it is only a doctor and there are good doctors here.. but that two hour bus commute is a reality for many who choose the bus system as their only option for getting back and forth to work.. or school.. or…

i am not in the least concerned with the person who chooses to live on the top of an somewhat unpopulated mountain and drives their SUV back and forth to the office 50 miles a day.

I am concerned with those who live the same distance or more because that is where they can afford safe housing for their family and drive those same miles to a job that barely supports their family.

you don’t need to have a college education to have a basic grasp of their reality… but it is looking increasingly like a college education lessens the probability that you are able to grasp the impact the long term process of increasing gas prices has on those who aren’t so fortunate.

We have just had 8 years of an administration that thought we the people was meant to describe corporations and the ultra-rich.

there isn’t much sense in changing horses only to find ourselves with one who thinks we the people refers only to the college educated and computer savy…

Go spend a day at the local foodbank and reacquaint yourself with people whose take on the health of the economy has nothing to do with their stock portfolios…

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[beachdrivegirl]

I have a recommendation for those out there who are really going to benefit from the $25-50 they would recieve over this gas tax holiday go get a second job.If you think about it $50 would be roughly 10 hours of work over the course of 90 days at a minimum wage job. It is obsurd that we (especially Democrats) would even cosider such a ridiculous policy. A policy that would only benefit the oil companies.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

while a second job might be an option for you.. how do you think someone already holding down two jobs is going to feel about that suggestion?

because a lot of the people for whom that money would matter.. for whom it is not insignificant.. are already holding down two or three jobs…

I am not so much advocating a suspension of the federal gas tax this summer … i actualy like the idea of the suspension of the diesel fuel tax this summer to hold down escalating food prices better… and i like a profiteering tax even better…

as I am pointing out that what many of you think of as insignificant amounts of money actually matter a great deal… to a good deal of America.

There is a big disconnect here between the reality for the haves.. and the have-nots… and it is frightening to realize that many of those for whom any relief would be a godsend.. consider themselves haves…

I believe it vitally important that our next president is aware that something must be done for these people immediately… these are people who are still barely making it but won’t be much longer if something isn’t done.

I don’t find it absurd that the democratic party would think of relieving the burden on it’s least citizens..

i thought that was what was supposed to set the democrats apart from the republicans these days…

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[JoB]

rs261..

please educate me… I am not trying to be argumentative..

but what you wrote is not quite what i thought i understood to be true…

my latest understanding was that

1)current ethanol production uses corn kernels.. we are still years.. and some say decades.. away from the kind of technology that would use the waste parts.. cobs/stalks/etc… or other grasses.. or algae.. a project Ken linked us to…

2)current ethanol production actually cost more in greenhouse gasses to produce than it saves at the pump.

You may be right that in this country the corn that is used for ethanol is not what we would consider food-grade… but it is not true that it is not food.

isn’t the the highest use of food grade corn in the United States for the production of food products.. such as high fructose corn syrup?

Aren’t processing needs what drives the designation of food grade corn in the United States?

other countries where ethanol is produced are also using corn kernel technology to produce ethanol for fuel.. corn that was traditionally dried and ground to meal to produce food.

lastly.. the corn kernels our livestock consume are still food.. both nutritious and digestible by human beings.

In some places you can still find the silos where they store corn cobs for livestock consumption… which by the way produces a leaner and healthier meat…

unless there is something here i don’t know about..

using corn kernels to produce ethanol is still using a potential food source…

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[Ken]

JoB

You stretching is showing. :)

Calling us all “elites” might work on fox news but the reality impacts that quite a bit.

Suggesting that we cannot understand the needs of rural people and their trials and tribulations might work for some but I call BS.

I have lived in those rural towns. I know what it is like to be unable to afford the gas needed to take the job 2 hours away.

I also know the perceived benefits are not the actual benefits. That is why it is pandering. I want real benefits for my daughter and grand daughter in NC. My daughter laughed so hard she dropped the phone when she calculated her savings and compared it to the actual cost of living even 45 min from her job.

Call those who disagree elitist. Call those who are male and don’t think Hillary is the best choice for President mysoginst and chauvinistic.

Common sense and the ability to detect Bullshit when we are asked to stand in it is not directly connected to education level.

I assure you there are many people in NC who can tell the difference between Bar-B-Que and deep pig shit from first hand experience with both and what McHillary is proposing is the more malodorous of the two.

High gas prices will not be fixed by a tax holiday. But the decline of the infrastructure and the increased shifting of cost to state and local tax bases will continue apparently with either McCain or Clinton as president.

With apologies to Lewis Black:

John McCain: “I have a really stupid idea!”

Hillary Clinton: “I can make it worse!”

I take canned goods to the food bank year round. I don’t do it out of liberal guilt, I do it because we are one or two lost paychecks from being in that line ourselves.

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[rs261]

1) Algae farms are in existance currently, we are currently trying to identify they different types of algae that are best in producing the oils needed for biofuels. Biofuels are not necessarily ethanol though. We (the United states) also did research back in the 70’s and 80’s on Synthetic fuel, but when the price of oil dropped from $40 a barrel to $8, that research was halted as the rough patch was past us. We also produce ethanol with soy, wood, grass currently, but the return vs the cost of production is not as great. (need that profit!)

2) Again, not necessarily true, as it burns cleaner, See the wikipedia ethanol link below, and find the energy balance section.

Basically there are different grades of corn, human edible, and feed stock. The corn used in ethanol production is feed stock grade. It can not be turned into corn syrup, sold as sweet corn, turned into corn flower etc.

from http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Corn/

Corn is the most widely produced feed grain in the United States, accounting for more than 90 percent of total value and production of feed grains. Around 80 million acres of land are planted to corn, with the majority of the crop grown in the Heartland region. Most of the crop is used as the main energy ingredient in livestock feed. Corn is also processed into a multitude of food and industrial products including starch, sweeteners, corn oil, beverage and industrial alcohol, and fuel ethanol. The United States is a major player in the world corn trade market, with approximately 20 percent of the corn crop exported to other countries. ERS analyzes events in the domestic and global corn markets that influence supply, demand, trade, and prices.

Corn kernels used to feed our livestock are edible by humans yes…but outlawed by the FDA.

I know all about silos…love the look of them, grew up helping my family on a farm every now and then. If you want to talk about food energy, its actually “better” environmentally to not have any livestock…cattle/pigs etc actually consume a vast amount of food energy that could go to humans…But I’m gonna keep eating bacon, cause I love it.

Using corn to produce ethanol is POTENTIALLY using a food source (we could grow different crop grades there, or different crops altogether). But being that we export 20% of our corn crop currently, I dont think we’re hurting in the corn department. Global prices in Oil, corn, wheat, etc are more influenced by the falling dollar then anything else (in my opinion). Yes supply and demand are important…but the bottom line is to make a profit, farmers need profit too!

On a side note, the best part about algae is that you can grow it vertically, instead of digging ponds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ToojK_MJd0

Some fun facts/websites

http://www.ncga.com/Ethanol/main/killing_myths.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize#Uses

Algea!

http://www.oilgae.com/algae/oil/yield/yield.html

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/04/algae-farm-to-p.html

and my fav the first algea farm…

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2267

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[rs261]

Just for good measure…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel

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[JoB]

Ken..

you get me wrong…

i don’t know whether this gas tax holiday is a good idea or not…

but i know that the rhetoric most are using to dismiss it is not good…

because it is dismissive of a large part of the population that it seems many are unable to even acknowledge exist.

The idea that even $10 a month wouldn’t make a difference to some families is wrong… and you know that as well as i do.

That is why we both donate to food banks. we know that one extra shopping trip for us makes a huge difference for others… and we know how close we all are to being that other…

I agree that this wouldn’t save any of us much…

and we both know this is just campaign rhetoric anyway.. not anything that is likely to actually happen…

and if it did… right now… it would still come down as a republican proposal.. done the republican way… no matter what the democrats say…

but considering the idea does create the impression that someone besides the republicans actually cares about those who are struggling… which i think is much needed.

and if this had occurred while there were only two candidates.. a republican and democrat… we would all be applauding the democrat who stepped up to not only match the republican offer… but one up it by making the oil companies pay for the break.

It would make great campaign rhetoric… even the prospect of $4.61 would be sweet if we thought it might come out of the oil companies’ pockets…

if all of the hullabaloo over this proposal even opens a real conversation about the impact of our economy on the average person… while corporations make record profits again.. creating the impression of a healthy economy…. it will have done some real good.

We badly need to redefine how we measure economic health in this country.

This campaign has focused so much on sexism and racism and high road and low road and perceived and real insults that many in our party seem to have forgotten who the true democratic base is.. those who are marginalized in some way.

Ken i never thought you mysoginst and chauvinistic because you are male. To be honest.. i don’t think i have heard a single sexist remark from you about Hillary… Even tho you have been candidly … anyone but Hillary… all along.

I think you are probably like hubby.. and Hillary has become the focus for a lot of your dissatisfaction with the lack of real impact from democrats… and deep anger over our involvement in this war.

I understand that.

But you know i think your anger is misplaced:)

I know Senator Obama is supposed to be this real progressive…and he sounds great… but the more i really look into who he is.. what he does.. what he has done… i fear we are falling for a pretty face who won’t be able to cope with the reality of our current financial and political situation…

and we will end with another Jimmy Carter presidency handing the reins of govt back to the republicans in 4 years.. if he can get elected.

I think Jimmy Carter is a great man.. and i think he had the makings of a great president… he just got a really raw deal… and our next president is going to inherit a similar deal.

I think we need someone who will take that raw deal and make the absolute best that can be made with it.. and that ability is something not even most of Hillary’s detractors deny.

In spite of sitting on opposite sides of the Obama/Hillary fence… i think you and i actually care deeply about many of the same issues… and long for far more than postage stamp solutions…

but if i am wrong.. i want to thank you anyway for always challenging me…

it’s too easy to get caught up in an argument you really aren’t sure you care making.. and forget what is fundamentally important:)

not that i have ever been guilty of that;->

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[beachdrivegirl]

If they already are working 2 jobs then work an extra 30 minutes aweek you will pay for the gas tax holiday relief and the country will be in a better position. Quite frankly its just a dumb idea…

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[JoB]

beacdrivegirl…

do you have any idea of the reality of minimum wage jobs?

you don’t get to decide how many hours you work.. you get the number of hours you are given..

and you are going to suggest that the poor simply need to work harder and longer?

i think you are stuck defending a position to the last that you really don’t mean…

step back from the position.. and look at what you are suggesting…

this isn’t about the gas tax.. it’s about the reality of people’s lives.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Yes I have worked minimum wage jobs before so I do understand them. What I am trying to point out is that the $30 on average that a family is going to get over the gas tax relief holiday is not going to do anything for them. It is a minimal amount.

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[beachdrivegirl]

If people really need to save that money maybe they should consider car pooling. I save a tank of gas a month or roughly $50/monthy by carpooling. I give my pocketbook a break as well as the environment a break.

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[beachdrivegirl]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_shlaes&sid=ae8vDjPHG6vY

Another article that articulates just how silly McCain and Clinton really are…

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

if you are smart enough to work harder and to carpool and to economize in other ways because you can and it benefits you… what makes you think that everyone else isn’t as well.. and that they aren’t already doing everything they can?

and that question by itself is a working definition of elitism.

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[Author]

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