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May 2, 2008 at 11:28 pm #623518
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB I am for the good of the county. Not for the good of the individual because once you take care of the coutnry all individuals will be taken care of. Do you not grasp how detremental this “gastax holiday” will be to the country the 90 days of good it may bring a small fraction of the country …will bring months and months of hurt to the country as a hole. Just because Clinton supports it does not make it a good idea.
May 3, 2008 at 2:11 am #623519
JoBParticipantso beachdrivegirl..
you really wanted to make this point.. you posted it on two threads…
so you really think people who can’t afford it should just make do.. for the good of the country?
wouldn’t it be nice to ask them what they thought before you made decisions for them that they have to pay for? Because this decision is a proportionately larger burden for them.
its’ a moot point of course.. none of this was ever more than campaign rhetoric…
but it does underscore one of the major differences between the Obama campaign and the Clinton campaign…
she didn’t just call for a short term moratorium on the federal gas tax.. she called for an immediate windfall profits tax on oil companies when John McCain proposed the idea…
All Obama had to do to one-up her would have been to support that idea and call for the money to be allocated to public transportation subsidies for the poor…
but when i looked for leadership or solutions from from the Obama campaign.. i found a resounding silence…
criticism of the problem.. but no solutions at all for those for whom the tax moratorium could have made a difference…
and worse.. criticism and scorn for anyone who was willing to enter into the discussion…
If you were one of the nation’s marginal people.. struggling to get by.. on the basis of this one non-issue.. who would you support?
I want someone who will look out for the little guy while trying to find solutions that work for the rest of the country… not one who will ignore the little guy in favor of the “greater good”.
This is what i am beginning to see as the fundamental difference between the two campaigns.
Senator Obama doesn’t even give them lip service.. instead he excuses their ignorance…
not so smart for a democrat.
May 3, 2008 at 6:19 am #623520
charlabobParticipantDo you really think the poor, the under educated, the working class — whatever euphemism you choose for people you look down on — are too stupid to realize they’re being scammed by the Gas Tax “Holiday”?
Tonight I heard Clinton actually say that she wanted the Democrats in congress to stand up and say whether they supporterd the Gas Tax Holiday or the Big Oil Companies. I was waiting for the phrase, “Up or Down Vote.”
Fortunately, the Democratic leadership isn’t as crass and venal as the Clintons — they have uniformly said, NOPE! Looks like Clinton and the Repugs are on alone on that particular limb.
Do you think the working class is too stupid to understand economics? Hell, they’re the prime victims of economics. And they’re quite capable absorbing concepts such as decaying infrastructure, pandering, etc.
I’m getting very tired of hearing the word “elitist” bandied about by describe who condescend to the working class. There are two elitists in this race: McCain and Clinton. If we’re lucky, the rest of us will figure it out before November and give them both a DOWN vote.
May 3, 2008 at 7:05 am #623521
JeffroMemberWhy have a gas tax at all if it’s such a burden on the poor? Does the gas tax even cover the amount we spend every year on roads?
I’m sorry but I think that people who drive our roads more should pay more. Our freeways aren’t actually free and that money has to come from somewhere. Apparently the McCains and Clintons of the world want to spread this burden onto people who are way worse off than someone spending 30 bucks in taxes over 4 months.
And I’ll point out that this hypothetical minimum wage earner saving $30 is already spending $500 in gasoline without the tax, and they’ll need more assistance than any gas tax holiday can account for.
Why stop at eliminating the gas tax? Let’s carry it one further and start paying people to buy gas! Now we’re getting compassionate!
I also want to call shenanigans on the two-hour bus ride from West Seattle to Ballard. There is no spot in West Seattle that is an hour by bus to downtown, and likewise for Ballard. If it takes you two hours, you’re doing it wrong.
May 3, 2008 at 11:38 am #623522
KayleighMemberJeffro, it’s an hour by bus from WSEA to Capitol Hill, which is sorta downtown. And when I worked in Ballard, it was about an hour on the 22-which-turns-into-the 15. Just sayin’. :-)
May 3, 2008 at 3:29 pm #623523
beachdrivegirlParticipantAren’t tax cuts typically a Republican stand point?
May 3, 2008 at 4:43 pm #623524
KayleighMemberJo, I can’t help but think that if it were Obama who was supporting this tax, you’d be arguing against it. But since Hillary supports it, and you trust her decisions in situations where others see shameless pandering…
BDG, I think it’s mainly Republicans that have convinced many Americans that taxes (and by extension, government) are the problem.
If only tossing crumbs at people worked at making the country a better place.
May 3, 2008 at 4:58 pm #623525
beachdrivegirlParticipantClinton’s position is a fairy tale. You can’t have a windfall profits tax this summer with out GW’s signature. And if you could, Clinton has already promised this money to alternative energy research, and now also infrastructure.
It is not a plan. It is pandering, plain and simple. If McCain gives you $5, I will too… It’s the political thinking that leads to someone like her supporting the war in Iraq for over 4 years, and supporting NAFTA for almost 10- and then being against it magically when the election season starts. It’s called pandering.
May 3, 2008 at 5:09 pm #623526
charlabobParticipantTax cuts for the rich and elite are a Repug specialty. NB, their fondness for repeal of “The Death Tax,” which affects very few people. In that case, their even embarassed some of the rich who benefit. Bill Gates Senior and others, in every state, have started rich people truth squads when “repeal the inheritance tax” movements have sprung up.
The Republican Party is the party of the rich — period. They’ve come a long way from Lincoln to “I’ve got mine f you.”
May 4, 2008 at 3:37 am #623527
TheHouseMemberCharla, your comment above is one of the most false statements ever made on this blog so I will ignore.
Believe it or not, I am not in favor of the temporary lift on gas tax (I would be in favor of scraping it completely). Instead if consumers want to take matters into their own hands, they must control consumption.
The “boycott” that was attempted last year was useless b/c it really doesn’t impact demand. People just needed to go out and buy it the next day. In order to make a major impact, how about starting a month long boycott of gasoline? Since we’ve already started the month of May, how about if we shoot for June?
Here is my proposal: From June 1- June 30 you do not spend 1 cent on gasoline of any kind. This will require you to use alternative ways to get around that do not require gasoline (walking, driving or mass transit if they do not use gasoline). The unfortunate casualty will be the gas station owners, but there isn’t a choice in the matter.
1 day would not make an impact, but 30 does.
What do you say we start the wave in the PNW?
May 4, 2008 at 4:46 am #623528
JoBParticipanttheHouse…
aside from the fact that not driving would be an impossibility for me… i would go for a boycott… i have already cut my driving substantially except when guests are in town… then i take them to see the sights the only way i can…
only one problem.. reducing demand in the US won’t do it any more. There is plenty of demand elsewhere… that’s why our gas is costing us so much now… we are paying a premium because china and other countries have massively increased their demand.
I am all for a windfall profits tax..
except the cynic in me says that it will just make them move to other countries faster.
May 4, 2008 at 4:48 am #623529
JanSParticipantno exceptions? I barely drive my car now, as I work at home. I usually put between 20 and 30 dollars worth of gas in my car once a month. And because of surgery, won’t be driving at all for the last half of May. But…will need follow-ups in June, and will be relying on others to get me there (hip surgery). Bus isn’t exactly the best way for me to travel at that time…can I have a special dispensation? :)
May 4, 2008 at 4:53 am #623530
JoBParticipanti don’t think Clinton matching McCain’s call for a gas tax holiday and one upping it is such a bad idea… it’s good campaign strategy.
i would have thought it good campaign strategy for Senator Obama to one up the whole thing and add that the windfall tax be used to subsidize mass transit vouchers for the poor…
but he found another strategic use for the gas tax holiday gambit.. distraction for his own political troubles… so i guess he did one up in his own way.
if Hillary called for congress to say yes or no as was described.. then she just fell for his ploy… and that wasn’t so smart…
all Senator Obama has to do is distract the democrats long enough to secure the nomination.. and then the republicans will hang him out to dry in the fall… because distractions won’t work with them.
yup.. i’m tired.. i hurt.. and right now i am pretty disgusted with my fellow man…
tomorrow will be better.
May 4, 2008 at 4:47 pm #623531
JoBParticipantI had a bad night last night and didn’t get much sleep… so i had plenty of time to think.
one of the things i thought about was what had bothered me so much about this thread…
after all.. we were never talking about anything real here. it was and is a political ploy from start to finish…
Pelosi was guaranteed to kill it in the house… if for no other reason than to try to embarass Hillary.
So… McCain led… Hillary countered.. and Obama saw the perfect distraction and countered both…
Who won this gambit?
Not Senator Obama.
Oh, he might have created a distraction that will last long enough to get him the nomination.. but that strategy won’t work again. So far he’s tried the high road and distractions. What is he going to use if he gets the nomination and faces the Republican machine? This won’t just go away…
and worse.. he showed contempt for poor people in using intellectual arguments and accusing them of being capable of being bought by a pittance.
Not Hillary… Obama’s dissent did offer her a talking point in Indiana which she needed and dismissing the needs of poor people gave her a bump in North Carolina… but staying in the game by publicly p…ing off superdelegates may not be so good…
too many of that political crowd have something they want to pay the Clinton’s back for.. and are taking the opportunity.
so this was costly to both democrats in different ways…
I am afraid this one goes to McCain…
Without risking anything he pandered to the heartland.. showed himself a man that cared more for the people than government or big business… he just ratified his maverik reputation… and put a whopping hole in the notion that the democratic party is the party for the little guy.
In their haste to prove the gas tax holiday a bad idea… democratic intellectual America forgot that there is a growing segment of our population for whom the small amounts of money that they were making a joke of… actually matter a great deal. and worse.. they forgot it was just politics.. or knew it was but thought that it would only harm Hillary.
Yup… McCain tricked you all into making a joke of rural and poor people…which by the way includes senior citizens on fixed incomes.
The group of people who will probably be casting the deciding vote in the elections this fall.
Good trick.. but he never could have pulled it off without help…
This is a new playbook… sit back and make democrats look ridiculous as they fall all over themselves to prove their political correctness or their superior intellect… while rapidly alienating their base…
McCain just might be the man to pull this off…
This election was always ours to lose.
May 4, 2008 at 5:16 pm #623532
KayleighMemberJo, we have GOT to stop pretending like stuff like this actually helps people. It’s a lie that this gas tax holiday even touches the huge problem. Let me repeat: it’s a lie.
Virtually everything–everything–the Repubs come up with hurts the common man in the long run while offering them crumbs in the short run. And when some of us (like Obama) have the courage to say that—to tell what is factual and true—we get called elitist.
Well, so be it. I’d rather be an elitist than a d*mn fool who shoots myself and the middle and working classes in the kneecaps.
May 4, 2008 at 5:30 pm #623533
JanSParticipantI think we all need to stop acting like this is a game…Pelosi did it to embarrass Clinton..Obama doesn’t win this round..McCain comes out the winner in this one. We (not just us on the forum, but the collective “we” in this country) have got to stop with the mentality that “anything goes” in a campaign, that how far you get down in the gutter and get dirty is OK because it’s “politics”, and that’s just how “politics” is…always has been, always will be. While these games are being played, real life is going on all around them…and real life is hurting a lot of people. I don’t want crumbs that are suggested so it gets someone elected, I want real answers, real solutions. All three candidates, in my opinions, need to get past their egos, and do some soul searching. Ain’t nothing gonna happen this summer to help anyone, without going through channels…but then there’s the big channel, congress….are we to believe that they’re just playing the “game” too? After all, Pelosi “does it” to get back at hillary, etc. If this is true, we’re doomed…what’s the point of even caring if it’s gonna be politics as usual. And that’s where complacency of the American people starts to grow again…
let’s hope things are really different than this…
May 4, 2008 at 5:41 pm #623534
charlabobParticipantYou are not an elitist, KL — in fact, calling Obama an elitist because he doesn’t talk down and pander to people is the definition of elitisim.
The Clintonistas are calling Obama and his supporters elitists because they think it works. (Another tactic they’ve learned from Rove — attack based on the opponent’s strength.) Since the opposition is based on, let’s see, facts of economics, etc., will we soon be attacked for supporting *science*?
Polls have shown that public support for the Gas Tax Farce is dropping as the people understand it. They understand it because elitists, armed with facts, are explaining it.
I repeat:
It is not elitism to think people can understand logical and reasoned and factual arguments. In fact, they prove time and again that they can.
In addition to Pelosi, the entire Democratic leadership of congress opposes this — are they all involved in this conspiracy against Clinton?
(Digression which I cannot resist — the Clintons are known for holding and acting upon grudges–will a President Clinton be able to work effectively with all of these folks in leadership rolls who are viewed as betrayers (or Judases?))
BTW, there’s a good possibility that NO one will get a reduction in gas prices — it will probably go to the Oil Companies (hurting because their income only went up 17% in the last quarter.) Did your income go up 17% in the last quarter?
May 4, 2008 at 6:00 pm #623535
JoBParticipantKayleigh…
i never said it the gas tax holiday was right… at least i don’t think i got that carried away…
i admit I don’t think it would do as much harm as everyone projected if it was coupled with a windfall tax on the oil companies.
which everyone knew would never happen…
just as everyone should have known that regardless of legislation sponsored… a gas tax holiday wasn’t going to happen either.
it won’t pass the Senate unless coupled with a windfall tax which Bush would veto… if the republicans didn’t kill it before it got that far…
and Pelosi won’t let any gas tax holiday legislation past the house… and that wasn’t difficult to figure out long before she announced it…
Nobody said.. this is the only solution here … it was just a political option.. one of many that should be considered…
So why was everyone treating it like a life or death issue? This was never about reality. It was about politics.
it was a political ploy.. fielded by the republicans.
if it’s about politics… Hillary’s one upping wasn’t such a bad ploy..
nobody was going to be shot in the kneecaps by a political ploy…
unless you count the loss in political capital the democrats suffered from this one.. all the way around.
Senator Obama may or may not have courage. It doesn’t take much to criticize other people’s ideas. it does take courage to offer something substantive in return.
i haven’t seen what he is offering… he supports biodiesel and at this point that just takes food and makes fuel out of it.. at more cost to the environment than gas.
It isn’t elitist to tell what is factual and true.
it is elitist not to listen respectfully to other people’s truth… to dismiss an argument simply because of it’s source.
but even that wouldn’t have gotten me here.
What got me here was the callous manner in which some posters dismissed the very real concerns of people who don’t have the resources to weather another 20 or 40 cent hike in fuel costs this summer..
And that callousness was very expensive politically.. no matter how you look at it.
May 4, 2008 at 6:44 pm #623536
beachdrivegirlParticipantOh my god stop defending Clinton. Clinton is a grown up and makes up the rules of the game as she goes along and its catching up to her. She didnt get set up or tricked and she lost this round. Once again reaffirming my decision that Obama is the best choice for Presidency.
May 4, 2008 at 8:15 pm #623537
AnonymousInactive*It doesn’t take much to criticize other people’s ideas.* If that is the case, why didn’t Hillary take this easy opportunity to criticize a stupid Republican idea? We’ve all been waiting for her to stop looking like she’s McCain light. Instead, for no apparent political or popular gain, she’s sided with the Republican again. It doesn’t matter if it’s an attempt at one up. No one sees the nuances. They see McCain and Hillary on the same side and Obama spelling out the truth. I think Obama won this round if we’re keeping tabs.
May 4, 2008 at 9:29 pm #623538
KenParticipantToo many topics so I will just hit the high spots.
No one did anything “just to embarrass Clinton”. That falls once again into the fallacy that anyone who opposes anything a Clinton says or does is somehow “disloyal”. That is authoritarian follower language from the “Blue Dog” lexicon.
Obama’s position is backed up by math, economics (and dozens of economist)and the dem leadership were only pointing out the obvious.
The truth has a well known “liberal” bias. Draw your own conclusions as to whether this illustrates Clintons buy in to the classic DLC view that we must become republicans to win elections. I think Obama is offering an alternative to the DLC “pretend you’re not a liberal” meme that has failed the party and caused so many people to take refuge in refusing to participate in the process.
I don’t pretend to think Obama can do no wrong.
The situation is so broken that no one will be able to repair all the damage 25+ years of republican/DLC/Neo-con rule have done to this country. Some of the problems have such deep roots in unreality aided by PR firms and corporate media that they will take a generation to turn around if it is at all possible.
There are some true believers out there that have “fallen in love” so to speak. I am not one of them.
But if stupidity, venality and willful ignorance got us into this mess, I choose intelligence, pragmatism and the restoration of the rule of law to get us out. Neither Hillary nor McCain exhibit any tendency to restore the executive branch as just one of three co-equal pillars of the republic. I think they both want to try their turn at the helm of the unitary executive.
I will take my chances with the devil I don’t know rather than the devils I know all too well.
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The idea that we should all pull a month long “boycott” of gas is just as insane as the one day lunacy. We have an economy that runs on oil and no one in any part of the country can stop using it “cold turkey” anymore than we can stop buying it when it is priced too high.
—
Suggesting that Grampy McCain’s idea was a good one and choosing to “one up” rather than to explain to us why it was a bad idea, indicates it is the clinton campaign that believes everyone to be too freakin dumb to understand the issue. The clintons are now using the republican code word “elite” to mean smart which is the original Atwater usage of the term.
If we are to continue to ride this republican constructed train wreck into the decline of the republic, I would rather have a conductor who tells me the truth rather than one who tells me every thing is going to be fine as the burning trestle flies by the window.
May 5, 2008 at 8:52 pm #623539
JoBParticipantyou know, it is getting really depressing to come here every day.
Ken.. i expected better from you…
Any assertion that Nancy Pelosi might block legislation in the house IF FOR NO OTHER REASON than to block Hillary… is something to be dismissed as “authoritarian follower language from the “Blue Dog” lexicon.executive”.
but your assertion that “Neither Hillary nor McCain exhibit any tendency to restore the executive branch as just one of three co-equal pillars of the republic. I think they both want to try their turn at the helm of the unitary”… is well reasoned comment based on fact?
And the assumption that Senator Obama would be any different than Senator Clinton? What exactly do you find in their records that supports that?
Give me a break.
Nancy Pelosi had made her personal animosity towards Hillary Clinton known long before the primary… so it isn’t such a leap to think that she might be very happy to kill two birds with one stone.
If you and the rest of the Obama supporters can spread biased assumptions as truth about Clinton with impunity.. then i think perhaps you should be a little less eager to jump on any biased comment i might make.
JanS… i know you all want politics as normal to stop… but read a little history… and you will find politics as normal are normal.. no matter how many reformers we have elected. I know your own personal observation of politics confirms that… because we have lived the same administrations.
To expect a group of people who crave power to stop using any advantage they can find to increase their power is naive at best.
I can’t fault you for wishing… but i do fault you for thinking it has to be so… Look at any presidency through history’s filter and even that of the shortened hope of our generation is just more of the same.
We aren’t going to stop the games.
the best we can hope for is someone who will keep us in mind as they play them. And i know you know that.
that is the reason it is so vital to get a democrat back in the White House. At least they acknowledge we exist.
JT…
You may think that Obama won this round in the democratic primary.. and i have no comment as to whether Clinton’s strategy to pull in the disenfranchised topped Obama’s strategy to deflect attention from the Reverend Wright. I think that still remains to be seen.
but there is a much larger contest here.. and neither democrat didn’t won that one.
One thing i would like to understand… why do people expect so much more of Clinton just to clear the bar of “making the grade”?
if only she had…… then i could……
that’s something worth pondering.
Beachdrivegirl..
any contest in which you describe your opponent as not doing as well as she needed to.. isn’t much of a win.
Please stop with the increasingly hostile comments to me.
What would you have me do to satisfy your need that i not question the propaganda coming out of the Obama campaign? Stop supporting Hillary?
it isn’t going to happen unless Obama actually wins the nomination.
And it’s not just me… she still has more of the popular vote than he does… so it seems i am not alone in what you think is this unbecoming obstinacy…
I may be the only voice on this blog consistently putting pinpricks in the Obama balloon… but i am not her only supporter.
Killing my voice might make you comfortable.. but it won’t stop opposition to Senator Obama…
not now.. and certainly not this fall if he gets the chance to enter the real contest.
if you can’t handle a hillary supporter now.. how do you think you are going to fare against the republicans?
they may be few on this blog.. but believe me.. they are here. And the media is full of them. if you get that lucky… you will be hearing things that will make your skin crawl every day…
something to think about before demonizing me more…
May 6, 2008 at 3:21 am #623540
beachdrivegirlParticipantMay 6, 2008 at 3:57 am #623541
TheHouseMemberKen, in regards to my idea…
Nice defeatist attitude towards the month long boycott on gas. It is very achievable and if you got enough people to support it, it would slow demand for 30 days.
See what would happen if Wal-Mart sales dropped 50% in 1 month. See what would happen to Bank of America if nobody deposited money for 1 month. See what would happen to any industry if they saw a significant decline in business for 1 month especially if media spread the word for you. Stock price would slide, demand goes down so price goes down, etc….
I’m the supposed conservative on here giving you a very liberal viewpoint/answer to the issue. It would work and at the same time you’d be encouraging people to change their ways and become greener.
May 6, 2008 at 4:07 am #623542
JoBParticipantthe house…
I haven’t checked recently.. but i don’t think American demand for gas goes up when the price goes up… most of us have already cut our driving back considerably… and yet the price at the pump just keeps going up…
hmm.. maybe the demand from other markets has something to do with that..
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