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December 9, 2013 at 7:03 pm #609880
wakefloodParticipantHey all,
I’ve been pondering what’s at the core of our current
values and why we have an UberClass that feels emboldened enough to not only stop paying lipservice to the basic goodness of economic fairness – but to actually suggest that it’s NOT anything to be pursued.
Basically, if you look at what Wall St. says publicly, it’ s “I got mine, you don’t deserve yours”.
It didn’t used to be this way. There used to be some modicum of propriety about greed and avarice that is just…gone? These people seem to feel no shame, nor guilt about amassing everything they can at the expense of others.
It’s obviously also part of other societal elements – not sure which one of these was patient zero? Racism, Religious Acceptance, Healthcare, etc.
I’m also not Pollyanna enough to assume that in the past, the underlying feelings of greed and racism didn’t exist, it’s just that those who felt them also felt compelled on some level to subvert those feelings enough to either not voice them or to not act on them in a direct way.
So, this thread is meant as a sounding board for anyone who disagrees or has some suggestions about how we can regain the conscious tool that is the ability to feel and act shamed.
Can we see change happening without adding shame back into the picture?
Personally, I don’t need to add religion into the equation. I’m agnostic bordering on atheist so I don’t need a scripture to back up my thought or action. Maybe others do?
Thoughts…?
December 9, 2013 at 8:46 pm #801251
JoBParticipantI don’t know if shame is the answer
but i would like to see a return to a basic sense of fairness
as in .. actually honoring the idea that everyone should have an opportunity even if it isn’t equal
December 9, 2013 at 8:59 pm #801252
wakefloodParticipantI agree that that’s the goal of the process but Obama and others been preaching that for years. Has it gotten better?
What’s the mechanism for it to come about?
December 9, 2013 at 9:05 pm #801253
JoBParticipantsupporting the minimum wage is one way
supporting equal rights in all it’s forms is another
but the biggest thing any of us can do is talk with one another
and smile.. at everyone
acknowledging the existence of your fellow man is the most effective way i know to remind yourself and everyone around you that we are all fellow humans who deserve the opportunity to make as much as we can from the lives we live… regardless of our choices
December 9, 2013 at 9:08 pm #801254
wakefloodParticipantWall St. practices what it preaches and what it preaches is economic eugenics. Unapologetically.
With no repercussions, public or otherwise.
I really think that having these guys/gals standing in the public square in stocks would go a long way to changing some perceptions of just what is to be admired and what is to be called what it is.
December 9, 2013 at 9:09 pm #801255
wakefloodParticipantJoB…if only.
December 9, 2013 at 9:43 pm #801256
kgdlgParticipantI feel desperate for a societal value of “shared sacrifice” again – you know, the kind that existed during WW2, when everyone actually felt like there was a link between our countries’ actions and individual choices. I think that the draft heavily impacted this feeling, that the rich and poor fought for us together, as well as the fact that we had to actually tax people for our wars, instead of just borrowing money and kicking the can down the road for our kids to deal with and pay later.
I don’t think that re instituting the draft is necessarily the answer but I think it is part of the societal change that has left the elites that much farther away and insulated from the rest of us.
Personally, my fear with the minimum wage stuff in Seattle is that it won’t actually make a dent in any rich person’s/corporations’ pocket. That the two main outcomes will be higher cost of goods (cost passed on to consumers including poor people) and fewer jobs overall (layoffs in order to absorb wage hike). I fully support a higher minimum wage, but I just have given up on big businesses sacrificing profit to do the right thing. I think they will always prioritize maintaining their egregious bottom lines (necessary to pay their CEOs millions per year!)
December 9, 2013 at 9:58 pm #801257
kgdlgParticipantHere is an interesting informal survey of small biz owners on the Hill and what they are thinking about the min wage movement…
December 9, 2013 at 11:22 pm #801258
KBearParticipantShame has no effect on people who have no shame.
December 9, 2013 at 11:27 pm #801259
skeeterParticipant“These people seem to feel no shame, nor guilt about amassing everything they can at the expense of others.”
I think we’ve talked about this before and didn’t come to an agreement. I don’t think one person’s quest for wealth is at the expense of another person’s opportunity for wealth. People like Bill Gates, Walt Disney, Estee Lauder, Henry Ford – they saw an opportunity to do something amazing and went for it. It didn’t make people poorer in the process.
December 9, 2013 at 11:44 pm #801260
JanSParticipantwakeflood…about your post #5, stocks in the town square…can we throw tomatoes?
I’m reminded of the saying (which used to refer to marriages)…”What’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine, too”…Big sigh..
December 9, 2013 at 11:55 pm #801261
wakefloodParticipantSkeets,
I don’t disagree about the non-mutual exclusivity of wealth generation…as a general statement.
But the people you mention AIN’T the people who need shaming. The people who need shaming ARE the ones who don’t want a bigger pie for anyone but themselves and their fellow fiscal elites.
Remember the guys at Enron laughing about jacking the heating costs of the old ladies and lining their pockets at the same time? That’s real, and that’s the general mindset of these Kings of Finance. These Barons of the Invisible Hand. Invisible, my ass. They spend millions to buy legislation to ensure they can make billions.
At least Billy Gates got guilted enough by his mentor Warren Buffet to commit to philanthropy. Good for him. Now how about we unrig the game so the masses have a fair shot?
December 10, 2013 at 12:04 am #801262
wakefloodParticipantSkeets, now that I think about it, tell me how a multi-TRILLION dollar scam – LIBOR – grew our shared pie?
Go ahead, defend these guys. I’ll wait. Yeah, I know this ticks you off too…
Every single CEO and Director of these institutions should pay multi-million dollar fines AND be forced to stand in the square with signs saying “I’m a thief with no moral compass, don’t ever trust me with your $”. And JanS can throw as many tomatoes as she wants. ;-)
December 10, 2013 at 12:05 am #801263
skeeterParticipantWakeflood – trickle-down economics is working. We just need to give it more time.
Ha Ha. Just kidding. Please don’t hate me for that little joke
I agree that market manipulation and unchecked greed are destructive. A very few win – and in some scenarios (such as Enron and Madoff) it is at the expense of others.
December 10, 2013 at 12:10 am #801264
wakefloodParticipantAnd for the record, LIBOR was at the expense of virtually EVERYONE who ever used credit to buy a house, car, toaster, porn, window shades, tickets to Warren Zevon or Justin Timberlake… ;-)
December 10, 2013 at 12:21 am #801265
wakefloodParticipantKBear, #9 – that’s a good point and one that bears discussion. (sorry for the pun)
Shame is partially about the shamed and partially for the observers of it. It’s an exercise in lesson-learning. Sure, you may get a Jack Abramoff to decide that buying legislators is wrong (AFTER prison) but you can make an object lesson to those future potential Abramoff’s or Ken Lay’s with societal pressure.
It’s one of the strongest forces we have for behavior modification. To see these guys function with impunity is as powerful a lesson as the inverse would be.
One only has to look at the number of kids who got MBA’s in finance and were stoked to get into hedge fund companies after school. They saw that stuff being glorified and ran to it like bears to a honeycomb.
How many “gotta’ be cool” 20 something’s would aspire to be publicly embarrassed or shamed?
December 10, 2013 at 12:34 am #801266
dobroParticipantShame is so mid-20th century. I think somewhere around the time G. Gordon Liddy got his own talk show and Oliver North became a pundit-authority on foreign policy and Dick Cheney, torturer-in-chief, morphed into a widely quoted critic of Middle Eastern affairs (rather than rotting in jail as all these scumbags should be) shame became obsolete.
December 10, 2013 at 12:37 am #801267
JanSParticipantSeriously, Wakeflood..at this point I don’t think shaming would even matter to them…they just don’t care…yep..cynical me..
December 10, 2013 at 12:37 am #801268
wakefloodParticipantWait, those guys aren’t in jail?!? WTF?? Did Gerry Ford proactively pardon them before he left office?? Give a guy a pen…
December 10, 2013 at 12:40 am #801269
wakefloodParticipantDon’t disagree about the perps themselves – well, certainly some of them. But maybe we can divert a few key wannabes??
I’m just thinking of ways to put the genie back in the bottle…toothpaste back in the tube…other bad metaphor back to way it used to be… ;-)
December 10, 2013 at 3:28 am #801270
JoBParticipanti don’t think it will ever be the way it used to be
but there is enough evidence that the current system is not working
and i think it is going to be a harder sell
even Republicans now acknowledge privately that trickle down didn’t work
it’s one thing to give public assets away in the expectation that you will get something for your sacrifice
quite another to sacrifice and be asked to sacrifice more and get nothing in return
December 10, 2013 at 4:13 am #801271
JulieMemberI’m not sure shame is going to be useful in this context. Those who might feel shame at prospering while the rest of humanity suffers are probably going to rationalize it away.
Self-interest is a more likely tool. I thought this was an interesting article: https://plus.google.com/116665417191671711571/posts/PF1tZ2DE23y
“In October the International Monetary Fund or IMF – not exactly a center of socialism – floated a bold idea that didn’t get the attention it deserved: lowering sovereign debt levels through a one-off tax on private wealth. As applied to the euro zone, the IMF claims that a 10% levy on households’ positive net worth would bring public debt levels back to pre-financial crisis levels. Indeed, this notion was broached in the US by several billionaires including — shockingly — Donald Trump.
The reason to go along is simple. Your billions become worthless if the society that helped you win them collapses.”
The author goes on to suggest another, fascinating alternative that I don’t think I can adequately summarize here, but if you’re interested, click through to the blog post.
December 10, 2013 at 4:13 am #801272
JulieMemberDecember 10, 2013 at 5:10 am #801273
miwsParticipantAs much fun as it would be to put the greediest of the greedy mega wealthy in stocks and toss tomatoes at them, I’m not sure shaming them would do any good either.
I really think, and I’m kinda serious about this, we need to go all Trading Places on their asses. They need to lose that which is most important to them next to their over-inflated egos; their wealth.
I don’t know how this could be done, as I think shy of getting Billy Ray Valentine, Louis Winthorpe III, and Ophelia together to pull this off, the only other option would be to have enough money, thus enough power, to take them down.
Mike
December 10, 2013 at 3:39 pm #801274
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