Anti Christmas Acts

[HeavyMetalConservative]

JenV, I do not want 1st amendment inequality. Far from it. I will in fact defend you on your rights. I certainly do not want to force any belief upon you or others. I do try to have people recognize various histories.

Your view is so great because of your individuality. Please keep it up.

I started this string for debate. I am glad that you and others are responding. I may not like your responses but I sure as hell respect them.

Take Care.

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[JenV]

Cheers to you as well, HMC. Have a great weekend.

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[JoB]

HeavyMetalConservative..

i think you need to read about the Celts and the religion they practiced (druids) long before Christianity in Ireland..

a really entertaining way to do so is by reading any of the sister fidelma mysteries by Peter Treymane… who happens to be quite a historian as well as a writer.

and you might look at their government and body of law too. A lot of English law came from their law courts and English law is what eventually formed the basis for our constitution…

now i honestly can’t remember when Charlemagne ruled tonight.. or for sure if it was during his reign that the document i can’t remember the name of was signed (magna carta?).. but that is the real basis for individual rights in both English and American law… and if it was Charlemagne.. i think he was catholic.

that is somewhat relevant because the Catholics thought the individual man… unless he was royalty and therefore anointed by god… had about 0 rights as an individual.. it being their duty to toil here on earth to earn or purchase entrance into heaven where he might get rights.

the notion of equating individual rights and Christianity began to emerge with the Lutherans and didn’t really take hold much until it found root on American soil with the Protestants … quite some time after the Pilgrims landed… by a few generations.

the Pilgrims believed far more in individual duty and responsibility than individual rights.

holy days preceded the christian church… read a little early Roman history and you will find there were plenty of holy days… i think the Greeks had holy days as well.

As for the roman empire being ok with Jews.. if so, they would not have crucified Christ… because he was just another Jew to them… or any of the other Jewish martyrs crucified before him.

Christianity.. in any recognizable form.. didn’t really evolve for at best a couple of generations later. And Christianity as we know it didn’t evolve until after the Roman empire had fallen… or thereabouts…

i can head you towards a writer who is a historian of Roman Empire and a mystery writer for the entertaining way to learn about not so ancient Rome (Steven Saylor) but you won’t find many references to either Jews or Christians in his work. it turns out he didn’t find either to be relevant to his stories since both groups were considered just one of the many civilizations conquered and absorbed by the roman empire.. not even citizens for the most part unless they volunteered to fight in the army… and therefor not of much real consequence.

I am not saying that Christianity had no influence on the formation of our government… but i think you will find Jefferson who drafted much of the constitution was far more influenced by the French than by the church.

And it is certainly true that Jesus said render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars.. a maxim that was used by the church until fairly recent history to subjugate the populace to reigning monarchs.. and the other half was used to subjugate the populace to the church:(

Our religion as we know it and practice it was an affair negotiated over generations by countless ruling governments and church leaders… The words of the bible are continually reinterpreted my modern standards to justify any number of claims for Christianity.. unfortunately, the words that are reinterpreted have themselves already been reinterpreted in translation after translation and edit after edit. Our best earliest translation is Greek… and even that is open to huge differences in interpretation since it is impossible to resurrect a Greek scholar from the times to properly contextually interpret that translation.

it’s not a document to be taken too literally and yet that is what too many do.

It really is too bad that access isn’t given to scholars to the documents stored in the Vatican.. i believe those documents would not only shed a lot of light on how the bible was formed.. i suspect that they would also reveal teachings that we are not aware of. i don’t think the Catholics ever destroyed anything.. though it is hard to tell what they did during the inquisition.

Some of the cardinals and even the popes could have given Karl Rove a real run for his money when it came to rewriting history to support their own personal ideology.

As i said.. it’s a miracle my faith survived learning all the things done in the name of Christ… including the perversion of his teachings. I still believe in the bible as a body of work… but take most of those who tell me they have a fast track for interpreting it with a huge grain of salt.

All human beings are such contradictions.. it’s what’s so interesting about them:)

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[JoB]

I am questioning whether Charlemagne even ruled in Britain.. LOL.. i think i should leave history to someone else tonight:)

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[celeste17]

Ok where is HMC? The anti religon sign went missing earlier today and I want to know where HMC was at that time? ;)

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[Anonymous]

HMC is FAR too cool a customer for those type of shananigans, IMO.

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[datamuse]

JoB, small correction: Charlemagne ruled France, not Britain, and about 400 years before the Magna Carta was signed.

That was in 1215. King John was king of England, and the reason the Magna Carta is important is that it made the king subject to the rule of law. (Though it wasn’t the first document to do so; it’s remembered in part because the barons of England forced King John to accept it.) It became the basis for constitutional law and influenced the development of common law, which are both fundamental to American government.

None of this has much to do with religion or the Church, which by this time was supporting John despite having excommunicated him six years earlier in a dispute over the selection of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

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[celeste17]

I know HMC is to cool for that but I couldn’t resist teasing about it.

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[charlabob]

WSMom and Magpie,

If you like the line, check out the many versions of the song: simply type “and come let us abhor him” into Google — you’ll find gazillion additions to the holiday carol book.

I’m not posting them here because of possibly copyright violations (they’re in blogs and, obviously, written by some creative types who didn’t tm their work.) Lest anyone think I’ll

ever be deterred by private threats. :-)

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[JoB]

datamuse…

thanks so much for correcting my history… i knew that i was more that a little fuzzy in that ramble by the time i posted it.. but i was far too gone to do the research that would have fixed it…

it was a tired migraine moderated brain that was typing… i should have gone for the ice cream earlier ;~>

LOL… if i am not careful someone is going to ask me what i was drinking.

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[HeavyMetalConservative]

Hmmmm The sign went missing. Is that so? I did go get a tree yesterday? That is my alibi and i am sticking with it!

If it is gone, I hope it was legally taken down. If it wasn’t legally taken down, the capitol police have some questions to answer!

Shall we explore the ramifications if it was a theft.

Christian Rule: Thou shalt not steal.

Heavy Metal Rule; Dude, i needed some rolling papers and the acoustics were great.

What rules apply here in your opinions?

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[datamuse]

JoB: no worries, that area of history is just one I happen to be interested in. :)

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[JoB]

datamuse..

me too.. in spite of the evidence to the contrary:)

HMC…

both..

that plaque wouldn’t have been too good for rolling papers unless you are into sniffing glue:)

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[Cait]

I too feel that what is written there is a abrasive and disrespectful. I wish that they would have posted the lyrics to John Lennon’s Imagine. It’s atheist, no doubt, but it’s also hopeful and is supposed to speak to everyone.

What’s up now isn’t hopeful and doesn’t speak to everyone. And whether or not it’s appropriate I think hope and respect is what we need.

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[JoB]

i didn’t think of John Lennon’s imagine…

that would have been wonderful.. with the name of their organization at the end..

but that might be breaking some pretty big copyright laws.

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[Cait]

I’m not sure why I’m thinking this, but I’m under the impression that it was made public domain for some reason. I’m going to check into that and make my own atheist sign.

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[Erik]

Cait – according to this Times article you just apply to set something up.

Someone has applied to set up a ‘Festivus’ pole.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008475714_atheist06m.html

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[Cait]

LOL a festivus pole. I’ll check copyrights apply. Why not right?

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[Zenguy]

I agree Cait, it is a great song. Here it is just for fun.

Imagine there’s no Heaven

It’s easy if you try

No hell below us

Above us only sky

Imagine all the people

Living for today

Imagine there’s no countries

It isn’t hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace

You may say that I’m a dreamer

But I’m not the only one

I hope someday you’ll join us

And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions

I wonder if you can

No need for greed or hunger

A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world

You may say that I’m a dreamer

But I’m not the only one

I hope someday you’ll join us

And the world will live as one

Copyright John Lennon

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[Cait]

It really is a great song… darn those copyrights. I think John Lennon would applaud me anyway lol. It pretty much sums up how I view things… especially during the holidays (somewhat ironically…)

I’ll let you guys know what I find out.

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[Anonymous]

Cait – I like your suggestion! “Imagine” is such a beautiful song. Another possibility would be “One” by U2. That’s another great song that would have worked.

One love

One blood

One life

You got to do what you should

One life

With each other

Sisters

Brothers

One life

But we’re not the same

We get to

Carry each other

Carry each other

One…life

Bono is amazing.

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[Zenguy]

Right on NR!

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[Cait]

Oh it is the holiday season isn’t it NR, me agreeing with you all the time :) I kid. An excellent idea! Bono is the king of Ireland!

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