Anti Christmas Acts

[HeavyMetalConservative]

I love Christmas for multiple reasons. I love celebrating Christ’s birth. It is a wonderful holiday promoting giving, peace and joy among many other things. If you don’t believe, that is your right. He was a great teacher and philosopher.

But I am distressed.

First, I am very unhappy with the Atheist sign in Olympia. There is no reason it should be there and it is attacking people’s faith, not just Christianity but all faiths. Christmas is a federally recognized Holiday. Their display is tasteless and they do not show respect for other opinions. They already have freedom of speech and they should be allowed to use it but not in that forum. We are not a theocracy, but western values have evolved with the help of the judeo christian ethic. Chris Gregoire should not allow it but she will.

Second. Why in the world did the woman who was given the privilege of designing a christmas ornament have to make it a Impeach Bush bauble for the nation’s Christmas Tree? Again, no respect. She can make all the Impeach Bush stuff she wants but that was also in very poor taste.

Secular Progressives are much more intrusive around here than most religious denominations. Respect and equality grew out of the judeo christian ethic. I think these two acts are completely out of line.

They may have the freedom TO, but sometimes I like freedom FROM. Maybe I should say there is a time and place for everything and they should show more respect.

Thanks for letting me vent and may I say….Merry Christmas or peace to all on and near the Winter Solstice.

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[Zenguy]

In watching the news today it was reported that the law in the state says when you allow one religious display you MUST allow other displays as well.

Secondly the bible is roughly 3,000 years old, the Quran about 1,600, humans have been around for 500,000 years. So, I think it could be argued that Athiesm existed first.

I grew up Catholic, went to church, Sunday school, was confirmed and studied Catechism like a good little boy. My parents taught me to read and find my own answers and much to my Mother’s chagrin I think of myself as an Athiest…spiritual but not religious.

I love Christmas as a season, the decorations, the food, the parties, Christmas trees, Santas and that people try harder to focus on caring and giving, even if it is for a short time. I do not love the commercialism, the pushing the shoving and the greed.

Most of the things we count as Christmas were not originally Christian at all but rather Pagan. The date is near the Solstice (something the Pagan’s celebrated) most agree Jesus was probably born late Summer or early Fall. The Christmas tree is also a Pagan symbol.

I just hope that we can find room for all opinions in our Country, State, cities and neighborhoods.

Merry Christmas, happy Haunakah, happy Kwanza and any other darn thing you want to celebrate!

Happy Festivus for the rest of us

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[Kayleigh2]

“Secular Progressives are much more intrusive around here than most religious denominations.”

You’ve got to be kidding. I’ve never seen an atheist or agnostic display of anything, anywhere, ever until this little tiny plaque. I think the plaque is childish and mean but I have to admit, watching the conservatives get apopletic over it is entertaining. The idea that Christians are somehow oppressed in this country is ludicrous, HMC. You have tremendous religious freedom here–which is as it should be, IMO.

Also, to say respect and equality came out of the Judeo-Christian ethic is insulting, particularly since Native American spirituality (which existed eons before Christ and is part of my heritage and spirituality) is based on respect and is, in fact, light years ahead of Christianity on that regard. Many types of Christianity are based on fear, not respect.

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[JenV]

Speaking as a lifelong atheist, I am sick to death of Christianity being shoved down my throat on a daily basis. It’s ONE sign. that’s it. If I were a christian, I would be far more offended at the wholly material raping of your supposed christian holiday than at one little sign speaking up for people who rarely get a public voice. But, this is nothing new. Christians are the least tolerant group of people when it comes to other voices, opinions and religions…

IMO, none of this belongs at the Capitol, anyway.

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[Anonymous]

Superstition belongs in your personal life, not in the public square.

The Christian Nation Myth

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America’s Government Is Secular

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Our Godless Constitution

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

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[GenHillOne]

I have to believe that the state capitol belongs to all of Washington and that lawful free speech allows for the display. If it got Bill-o fired up, bonus.

As for the ornament, well, depends on what the artist’s intent was I guess. If she was just looking to make a statement, she did. Personally, I think it would be an honor to have my work – and the pattern was beautiful – hang in the WH, regardless of politics. How often is that chance going to come along? What she added was a sure-fire way to be sure it wouldn’t end up there. Her choice.

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[charlabob]

Perfect holiday fare for those of us who eschew this particular form of superstition…see it before it’s banned:

http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/06/06/religulous-movie-trailer/

Interesting about bill-o; he seems to have difficulty deciding which side he’s on in the “made-up-by-bill-o” war on Christmas.

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[Cait]

I think we hit it on the head here – this is the private sphere becoming public. There’s really no reason for any of the religious stuff, in my opinion. But, if we are going to represent one, we must represent all and atheism gets to be included.

I agree about the holiday spirit stuff, too. I’m not religious and never have been, but I love the holidays because everyone really seems to rally together despite religion. It seems that at its root, there’s something at the base that we all identify and agree with: peace on earth, good will toward men. Falalalala.

Plus the food. And Charlie Brown Christmas. And family time. :)

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[mellaw6565]

HMC – I’ll stop complaining about non-secular displays when Christians stop trying to rule this country. Those of us that are secular in our beliefs are frankly sick and tired of having Christian beleifs shoved down our throats. They don’t represent me and my government should represent everyone in a secular manner, not by putting up non-secular displays that don’t represent all of the people.

I say good riddance to all religious displays on public property. If you want a non-secular display – put it up at your church or your home and spare the rest of us.

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[cruiser]

HMC,

Love your blog,that’s a great little kid ya got there:)

Merry Christmas to you and yours

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[JoB]

Heavymetalconservative…

i too thought the plaque at the capitol was pretty pointless… but i can understand the feeling that you need to be represented when belief systems are being represented.

i know how easy it is to dismiss all that equal opportunity stuff as PC.. but the truth is that it is just equal opportunity stuff.

christians may own the label christmas (christ mas) but only because of the domination of the christian religion in europe during the holiday season that the europeans who immigrated brought with them to America.

i never realized how oppressive the continual bombardment of christian religion is during the holidays till i had an unexpected exchange with a jewish friend about christmas cards some time ago.

Our christmas cards are never religious because i live with an athiest.. so i never thought much about it until my friend asked me please just to send the annual christmas letter which she really enjoyed but to bag the cards.

I was puzzled because i was very careful never to send her anything offensive.. and glancing at her buffet i could see that most of her friends were equally careful. Then i saw that the buffet top was full of cards celebrating a holiday that kept a significant portion of her torah as the first book of the bible but vilified jews…

You say that the first tenant of christianity is respect but that tenant in christianity was actually jewish.. the christian religion reveres those teachings enough to keep them as the first part and heart of their bible but not enough to acknowledge fully and revere where they came from.

i think that may sum up what it has been like to be a jew.. even here in America.

Now, i am not saying that Christianity is bad. I would have to deny my own personal belief system to say that.. and believe me i am not doing that.

but i do think that respect is a two way street and that it hasn’t gone from christians to those of other faiths nearly as much as it has been demanded by christians from other religions…. at least in my lifetime.. in this country.

i can remember being told not to play with the little mormon girl.. or heaven forbid.. hang out with the catholics. if there were jews where i grew up i didn’t know it.. certainly there was no visible synagogue. And we won’t even mention the standing the indian children had in our northeast oregon town.

I can see why many christians feel persecuted by what they see as the lack of respect for their religion.. but what they see as lack of respect is actually lack of supreme dominance. it’s a shock after a lifetime of that position.

I have studied most of the major religions and found that respect is actually a basic tenant in all of them..

some time we are going to have to discuss that equality thing since women aren’t considered quite so equal in the christian ethic:) so equality for men… but that does leave out a significant portion of the population. and then there’s that history of equality for only some men.. dependent perhaps on their color or their belief system.

The fundamentalist Christian home i grew up in was extremely bigoted.

With my left leaning ways it’s a wonder that the power of the message of Christianity survived my revulsion at the acts done in the name of Christianity.. but it did:)

I think we should all appreciate the season for what it means to us because it is what we bring to the table that makes it live for us.

I won’t be having sushi for christmas dinner… but i bet i will be going out for sushi for christmas dinner with my daughter, my son and his family and my husband who all love sushi. It’s not what’s on the table that is important.. but who sits around it.

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[JoB]

Mellaw6565..

Bah humbug ;~>

So what are you getting those pups for christmas? mine are so spoiled that they don’t need anything but their little noses are front and center when i open anything so i suspect there is going to have to be more than one package under that tree for them.

i think i may even let them open them this year…

We are all foolish about something:))))

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[mellaw6565]

JoB – we don’t do presents for anyone, including our pets, at xmas. We share and give to our friends and families all year long – I refuse to buy into the commercialism of Xmas. We’ll donate when there is a need, not just because of xmas.

It’s sad that many people out there don’t become altruistic until xmas and then blow it off the rest of the year. It seems very fake and two faced.

Bah humbug to overdone and useless xmas celebrations and displays. I appreciate your thoughts above – Christians just don’t get how bad it is with all their xmas crap around in this country – definitely different elsewhere. The best xmas’ I’ve ever had have been in Asia where they don’t celebrate it:)

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[datamuse]

They may have the freedom TO, but sometimes I like freedom FROM. Maybe I should say there is a time and place for everything and they should show more respect.

Matthew, 7:3-5.

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[FullTilt]

“We are not a theocracy, but western values have evolved with the help of the judeo christian ethic.”

Really? Like the wholesale slaughter of Natives both here and in South and Central America? Is that the same ethics that brought slaves over? Oh, and the moral high ground that burned people at the stake.

This is what having a free nation is really about. People are allowed to express different views. I know the American Taliban Church would like to see it a little different, but we have to respect each others differences.

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[Ken]

For reference:

http://www.history.org/almanack/life/christmas/hist_anotherlook.html

Excerpt from The Colonial Williamsburg Interpreter, vol. 16, no. 4, winter 1995-96

6. Was Christmas celebrated throughout all the colonies?

No. The celebration of Christmas was outlawed in most of New England. Calvinist Puritans and Protestants abhorred the entire celebration and likened it to pagan rituals and Popish observances. In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts forbade, under the fine of five shillings per offense, the observance “of any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forebearing of labour, feasting, or any such way.” The Assembly of Connecticut, in the same period, prohibited the reading of the Book of Common Prayer, the keeping of Christmas and saints days, the making of mince pies, the playing of cards, or performing on any musical instruments. These statutes remained in force until they were repealed early in the nineteenth century. In 1749, Peter Kalm noted that the Quakers completely dismissed the celebration of Christmas in Philadelphia. Kalm made another interesting observation about the Presbyterians as well. He wrote in his diary:

Christmas Day. . . .The Quakers did not regard this day any more remarkable than other days. Stores were open, and anyone might sell or purchase what he wanted. . . .There was no more baking of bread for the Christmas festival than for other days; and no Christmas porridge on Christmas Eve! One did not seem to know what it meant to wish anyone a merry Christmas. . . .first the Presbyterians did not care much for celebrating Christmas, but when they saw most of their members going to the English church on that day, they also started to have services.

Christmas Day in 1775 must have been a great disappointment for the Presbyterian missionary, Philip Fithian. A year earlier he had experienced the finest of Virginia Christmases the residence of Robert Carter, Nomini Hall. But in 1775, Fithian toiled as a missionary in the western counties of Virginia among the Scotch and Scotch-Irish Presbyterians. The following is part of his diary entry for December 25:

Christmas Morning–Not A Gun is heard–Not a Shout–No company or Cabal assembled–To Day is like other Days every Way calm & temperate– People go about their daily Business with the same Readiness, & apply themselves to it with the same Industry.

Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Moravians celebrated the traditional Christmas season with both religious and secular observances. These celebrations in eighteenth- century America were observed by the aforementioned communities in cities such as New York and Philadelphia, in the Middle Atlantic colonies of New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, and in the South.

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[datamuse]

The history of the celebration of Christmas in the U.S. is pretty interesting. I usually refer people to Stephen Nissenbaum’s The Battle for Christmas. (The author is a professor emeritus of history at the University of Massachusetts.) Among other things, he points out that a lot of the things we think of as traditional ways of celebrating Christmas in this country aren’t even as old as the United States. If one wanted to get REALLY traditional in one’s Christmas celebrations, the results would look something like a combination of Halloween and New Year’s Eve.

Considering the origins of the Christmas holiday, particularly its timing and some of its decor, there’s really not a whole lot of room to complain about what other religions (or those specifically and particularly denying same) choose to do at this time of year.

I’ll grant that the sign is pretty antagonistic and maybe not a good way to get allies. On the other hand, this part of the U.S. is famous for its lack of religiosity. One of the faculty at my university even wrote a book about it. So you’re more likely to find displays pertaining to non-Christian religions and to atheism here than elsewhere, I think.

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[JoB]

Ok guys..

i know you’re right… and we work hard to take the crass commercialism out of christmas in our house…

but i do love many of the traditions. which is why there will be something for everyone in my house under the tree christmas morning…

and why my house will have not one but two small trees …artificial, after all i have little old lady creds to defened:) and lights… and christmas goodies to fatten us all of the dark days of january.

and why i try to piggyback on the sentiment of the season to get people to give at christmas even if they don’t give any other time of the year.

Those who do give year round will continue to do so.. but the bonus from christmas giving is not one i would deny our local charities.

Yes, the way we all celebrate the season could be improved.. a lot. But there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Maybe i will make a video of the dogs tearing open their presents:) yes.. they would do the same any time of year.. but it is soooo cute when the packages are wrapped in christmas paper:)

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[HeavyMetalConservative]

Heh heh. I knew I would get you people going on that one. I will also have fun debating many of your points.

Let me make something very clear. I do not care if you are religious or not. You choose your own path. I will be answering many of you in time.

Cruiser, thanks for the shout out. He is an awesome kid. We are so blessed. He is so much fun. He wears us out too. Dasvydania.

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[datamuse]

Oh, JoB, I absolutely agree! We had many lovely traditions when I was growing up, and my husband and I are working on creating new ones.

My point was more than an appeal to tradition as a criticism of what other people do has a way of backfiring, particularly in a country and culture as diverse as ours.

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[JenV]

What I am getting from HMC is that free speech is A-OK….as long as you’re with the majority. Don’t make waves. Let’s all go along to get along.

*gag*

No religious symbols should be allowed in government. At all. But they are…and “god bless america” and “one nation under god” and “in god we trust” is all over the damn place. So how is that not Christians shoving their religion down our collective throats? I am a Discordian – do you see me trying to throw a golden apple at you? I am also a Subgenius – do you see me trying to hold a devival down at the Capitol?

Keep your religion to yourself at all times – your personal relationship with your god is your business, and mine is mine. It is highly offensive to me that HMC stated that the atheists were “attacking faiths” In my opinion any public display of religion attacks anyone who believes differently – it tells them “you’re wrong”…but then, the Christians were responsible for the crusades….

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[ellenater]

This is a great thread!

I am LMAO because I was an atheist for years and am now going Catholic. Which is hilarious. I have an entirely new perspective now. All sides. So for what it’s worth…

Not all Christians suck but a lot do. IMO, atheists get no respect and are often targeted. In my life, MOST of the people i’ve met who are atheists are kinder, gentler, more moral, and more intelligent than their religious counterparts. They are also often more creative. Christianity is used for baaaaad so often, it makes me sick. So, there’s that.

BUT, I think there can be real beauty in religion. It’s not nearly as black and white as I had previously thought. I think the black and white is what gets us into trouble!

I love free speech and I love that the atheist symbol is up.

Lastly, if I were the ornament designer, I would have done the exact same thing. Bush should be impeached a million times over and it’s only because we as a country rested on our laurels that he got away with everything in the first place. There is no “right time” to tell the unwanted truth.

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[JoB]

i applaud anyone willing to point out that the emperor has no clothes..

as for appropriateness… one has to ask how appropriate a card depicting bringing a christmas tree into the white house is for jewish recipients…

you gotta love rachel maddow.

that said.. i still think it a true miracle that i ended up a christian considering where i started and the journey that ultimately brought me here :)

i passed through a lot of interesting places on the way and met a lot of wonderful caring people who don’t share my choices when it comes to religion.

i am looking forward to meeting many many more.

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[Cait]

Speaking of pro-Christmas shenanigans, does anyone have any word on when the “Christmas Ships” will be appearing on Alki? I may not always love Christmas but gosh darn, I will stand out in the cold with my Tully’s watchin’ Santa Claus on his Harley ANY day. :)

That being said, Christmas is overly commercial and it is sad – very sad given the WalMart crap this year (basically everything I hate about Walmart and greed is summed up right there in that incident). But I refuse to lose my faith in Christmas – whatever gets people in the same room feeling the love for a day is ok in my book… as god-awfully morally corrupt as my wording just sounded. :)

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[Zenguy]

December 13, 2008 departing Pier 55 at 8:00 pm and arriving at Lowman Beach from 8:50 – 9:10 and Alki Beach from 9:40 – 10:00 pm featuring the Canterbury Belles Choir.

I had already looked it up for my Grandmother.

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[Author]

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