51 Replies to "WEST SEATTLE LIGHT RAIL: Sound Transit sets date for Final EIS, with three information sessions"

• PDiddy September 6, 2024 (6:07 pm)

  I dont want any light rail in West Seattle. Big waste of taxpayer money. And I am not even touching on the damage the proposed line would do to our neighborhood. 

  • Derp September 6, 2024 (6:39 pm)

    Well it is going to happen whether you like it or not. 

  • salmom September 6, 2024 (7:23 pm)

    oh, big waste of tax payer money.  huh.  hey, quick question: how much of your money is going to this?  no, really–you say it’s a big waste of taxpayer money.  you pay taxes–so tell us: how much of your tax money is going to this?  let’s get real and talk $$ before you cry about what a big waste it is–tell us what you’re out cuz of this–hey, maybe someone will take pity on you and buy you a beer to make it up to you.

    • Jethro Marx September 7, 2024 (9:28 am)

      This is not easy to find, but after ST3 passed in 2017, the median household was paying a little over $600 a year according to Sound Transit. That does not include car tab excise taxes, which are significant. Sound Transit is famously sketchy with both finances and how they frame costs to the average taxpayer, so expect their numbers to be fairly skewed. For instance, they used a car value of $5000 or so as the median, while even a twenty year-old Honda may be twice that.

      Overall, even if no further taxes are imposed, I expect the median household to pay at least $100,000 total between 1996 and 2068. Of course, there will certainly be more tax packages, as their taxing authority is unlimited and indefinite, subject only to the board.

      • YT September 7, 2024 (12:04 pm)

        Thanks Jethro Marx for doing the math.  While this doesn’t provide an exact figure for each individual,  it does provide some evidence that the cost per household is just a tiny fraction of the cost of car ownership.  Another plus for light rail.

        • Jethro Marx September 7, 2024 (1:50 pm)

          These aren’t the evidence you’re looking for; I do think light rail is great but Sound Transit is objectively bad at building it for us, the customer.

        • Bbron September 9, 2024 (11:24 am)

          @Jethro Marx since it’s objective, what specifically has ST been bad at while building the light rail?

        • Jethro Marx September 9, 2024 (4:02 pm)

          I’ll pick an easy one: they used escalators that were not designed for public infrastructure applications in their design for public infrastructure. They broke and cost a ton to fix, along with being chronically out of service.

        • Jethro Marx September 9, 2024 (4:55 pm)

          Can’t remember the specifics on this one, but I believe they ignored repeated sensor warnings that something on the vehicle was riding low to the track bed, eventually a power line was severed, resulting in some chaotic hours on a packed train in the dark and then they lost passengers into the tunnels as they walked out. I believe the power line was not well-retained by whatever clips or zip tie contraptions they used but there were also some weight calculations that went awry.

        • Jethro Marx September 9, 2024 (5:17 pm)

          One can make the case they were hornswaggled by the contractor on this one: the design for the I-90 crossing includes rail supports bolted to concrete plinths using a fancier version of a drywall anchor. They failed to support the rails, attempts to fix it also failed, later it was found the anchors were also failed, and then it turned out the coarser concrete structure was also failing. This is either still being redone or may have been closed out this summer. Most of the components needed to be replaced and I’ll be shocked if the contractor takes the brunt of the financial consequences because they will have limited their risk better than Sound Transit, being, you know, a company that has to be solvent to survive.

        • Bbron September 9, 2024 (5:52 pm)

          @Jethro I’d like a “harder” example. the escalator choice mistake was for UW Stadium station; a cost saving measure that I don’t fault ST for, but rather the obsession with having infrastructure projects being primarily incentivized to be as cheap as possible. case in point: ST took over the downtown stations’ escalators and elevators, was given a decent budget to renegotiate with contractors, and have gone from 30% uptime to 90%. ST doesn’t lack ability to serve customers; they are incentivized to make trade-offs for the sake of budgeting.

        • Bbron September 9, 2024 (6:18 pm)

          @Jethro they didn’t ignore sensors in that incident; if anything they failed to escalate reports of rod strike; however, the full breakdown shows the sequence of events being more complex (report) and doesn’t indicate any issue building the infrastructure, instead missing a testing edge case. I knew the I90 concrete would come up 😊 we’ll see how it shakes out, but contracts with contractors have contingencies in place for shoddy work typically by restricting final payments, so it’s not confirmed whether ST lost any money on the bad work yet. but that’s hardly an issue with ST not being able to build the infrastructure (again, a problem of projects going to the lowest bidder always)

        • Jethro Marx September 9, 2024 (8:15 pm)

          I see. I’m not anti-Sound Transit or rail, just anti-nonsense. I’m not going to try to move earth to find an example that would convince you; you seem to have plenty of reasons it’s not their fault. These are just examples I remember experiencing personally one way or another.

        • Jethro Marx September 9, 2024 (9:24 pm)

          I just read the summary findings of the report you linked and yikes- even if you ignore the communication section and just look at the physical design and operation failures a1-a9 it is a tale of systemic ineptitude that puts the lives of the passengers/clients/public at risk. It is nothing like you describe as a quaint overlooking of an “edge case.”  I am not a lawyer but if there were serious casualties in that incident I would not have been surprised to see charges of criminal negligence. Are you connected to Sound Transit in some fashion Bbron?

        • Bbron September 9, 2024 (11:11 pm)

          @Jethro i just rely on transit to get around. weird to jump to conclusions about me. you say you’re anti-nonsense; i’m anti-reactionary. you stated a bold conclusion that ST objectively can’t build infrastructure but provide examples that afflict all government infrastructure projects, and if there’s no substance behind that it only serves to diminish support. infrastructure projects are rife with problems that you’ve pointed out (contractor failings), but that doesn’t mean the governing entity should shoulder all blame and said to not be able to serve it’s customers. incentives outside of ST’s control tilt the scales towards continuing to disenfranchise transit riders in the name of placating the more politically powerful population of car drivers. here’s actual issue i lay at the feet of ST when it comes to light rail construction: the locations of the stations north of Northgate (and somewhat Northgate itself) are downright terrible; having them abut I-5 doesn’t serve anyone outside of folks driving to the station. the WSLE shouldn’t plow thru as many home and businesses when there are opportunities to use existing roads or parking lots. having a huge section (Mount Baker to Tukwila) be at grade was nonsense, and then to have the airport station not be closer to the terminal because it’d “slow the whole system down” is a cop out. those are failures of ST that i’d lean into, not smaller things like contractor failings or cost cutting a few million. i’ll admit that the 2021 incident is more of an issue than i led on; however, i stand by my use of “edge case” as their testing fell short of the many changing variables, but to point to a one time incident with many moving parts as evidence of an inability to build infrastructure, to me, is a stretch as again many of the failures are due to lowest bidder contractors.

      • bill September 9, 2024 (4:55 pm)

        Jethro Marx: “expect the median household to pay at least $100,000 total between 1996 and 2068″ Pick a long enough time frame and of course any tax is going to sound outrageous, particularly if you apply an inflation estimate to future figures (not clear if you did). There can’t be many households that exist for 70 years.

  • Diddyp September 6, 2024 (7:54 pm)

    Agree – big waste of taxpayer money 

    • Westseattle September 6, 2024 (10:23 pm)

      Agree with salmom – I think a lot of the folks pushing back on light rail havent spent the time to actually understand the impacts hahaha.

  • john ewing September 9, 2024 (9:24 pm)

    Its a big mistake.The light rail line should go down Delridge to West Wood Village.The planed station at SW Alaska street will serve so few people by comparison and will cost a lot more than going on Delridge way.

• CarDriver September 6, 2024 (6:54 pm)

  WSB;Others. Has ST said how many fewer cars (and the documentation to back that up) they expect on the road once light rail starts up here in WS? Has the latest opening in Lynwood brought measurable change in I5 traffic?

  • West Marge September 7, 2024 (1:14 am)

    My daughter hauls boats for a living from Bellingham to Sammamish and is fully aware of the Lynnwood traffic, which hasn’t changed a bit since light rail started. We just had this conversation last night. 

    • Derp September 7, 2024 (6:57 pm)

      You expect immediate change,  good luck. What has it been open,  2 weeks,  maybe.  

      • JustSarah September 8, 2024 (2:31 pm)

        Service started mid-day 8/30, so literally barely one week when West Marge commented. Also, who’s to say traffic wouldn’t have been even worse without light rail? Critical thinking is hard. 

  • YT September 7, 2024 (9:24 am)

    I don’t think the idea is to immediately create a huge decrease in car traffic, but rather create the infrastructure to accommodate a rapidly increasing population and density that requires.  Car traffic is pretty bad in our city, much like most major US cities.  As our population grows, traffic will only get worse unless people have other viable options to move about the city.  There just isn’t room for us to keep adding more and more cars into the limited space we have, especially as American cars keep getting bigger and bigger.  

  • BlairJ September 7, 2024 (10:27 am)

    The idea is not to reduce traffic congestion, but to give people a way to get around the congestion.  When traffic congestion is at its worst, grade separated transit does this much better than surface transit.

  • skeeter September 7, 2024 (12:47 pm)

    CarDriver – there is horrible traffic congestion before light rail and there will be horrible traffic congestion after light rail.  That’s why these transit investments are so essential.  Not everyone has an hour or two a day to sit in traffic.  We need light rail so we can get where we need to go in a reasonable and predictable amount of time.  

  • Bbron September 7, 2024 (2:08 pm)

    @CarDriver: how many more cars you think can fit onto I5? on city streets? y’all are always bemoaning how much parking you need; how much more pavement for car storage will be needed as our population doubles?

  • natinstl September 8, 2024 (2:54 pm)

    The reality is those folks in Lynnwood are primarily going to use it to go to games. Billions if dollars for people to commute to events here and there. 

    • Bbron September 8, 2024 (3:20 pm)

      Even if that was the case (which it’s not) would you rather all those commutes be by car and on the highway? how is it a bad thing for Seattle to be able to host more people for events without impacting surface streets? never understand this sort of “gotcha” line of thinking… glad to know there’s another to add to “it just an airport shuttle!” maybe over time the utility of the Link will dawn on the folks that try this reasoning as more and more things become accessible with it (post-WSLE I’m sure there’ll be folks saying “people just use it to get to our farmers market!”)

      • natinstl September 8, 2024 (11:58 pm)

        As far as West Seattle goes we have a water taxi that gets us downtown for events and to work for those that go to an office in ten minutes without costing billions per mile and causing displacement to all these businesses and homeowners. And for most people it is just an expensive airport shuttle to football games. Covid changed our commuting, I’d rather see the $ spent in cleaning up our city. We’ll both be dead before it goes any further than Sodo and even then who knows. 

        • Bbron September 9, 2024 (12:37 am)

          my what moved goal posts, Natinstl. the overwhelming majority of the peninsula is closer to the rapid ride lines (and the eventual light rail) when it comes to getting to downtown than the water taxi. you can also get to downtown via bus (and the eventual light rail) in the same time as waiting for the ferry if you were to just miss it during it’s highest frequency (35minutes). not sure why folks always bring up work commutes as a “gotcha”; i go downtown to patronize businesses or to get to the light rail to go to N or S Seattle for friends, family, etc. life is so much more than work and home. “expensive airport shuttle to football games” is interesting because it’s usually just “airport”, so this is starting to sound like it’s getting harder for folks to minimize light rail’s utility ;) i think you also forgot it’s a great shuttle to Dick’s in Cap Hill and that we also have baseball games! but even with that reductionist thinking: do you want the hundreds of thousands of commuters that board the light rail (apparently only to the airport) to be on surface streets? i will never understand how y’all square that circle… i don’t know about you, but i am definitely planning on living for 15 more years to enjoy it when the Ballard line opens up. i already can’t drive and likely won’t be able to as i age, but i sure would like an expensive shuttle to Cloudburst.

• codad September 6, 2024 (6:56 pm)

  The route destroys the businesses established for years, such as the skylark, ounces, and many more. They are only paying out 25% to the owners. Its BS. Don’t support the latest design. You can find more info at https://www.change.org/p/support-west-seattle-businesses-impacted-by-light-rail

  • Curious George September 6, 2024 (7:07 pm)

    My take on all this is that they have already decided what their going to do and all this is fluff to make them look like they care about anything else.

  • salmom September 6, 2024 (7:20 pm)

    “They are only paying out 25% to the owners.”

    Dude, what does that even mean?  25% of WHAT?  Also, citations, unless you don’t want anyone to take you seriously. 

    Also: no, we cannot find more info at that link.  That link is everything but info.

  • AJ September 6, 2024 (8:26 pm)

    25%?!   Where did you get that?   So $250,000 for a million dollar property.   Please provide where we can all find this.   It sounds like something you heard on the streets. 

    • Terry September 7, 2024 (1:11 pm)

      I believe the landlords are ‘selling’ at reasonable prices, but their tenants are losing all of their investments. The business owners will only receive reimbursement for relocation. They will need much more money to establish the business in a new location, as this is not simply a move of their home. Both time and money—more than $200,000 and at least six months—are required to set up a business.

      • WS Res September 9, 2024 (4:47 pm)

        “The business owners will only receive reimbursement for relocation” – not true. There are two pots of money: relocation costs, and rebuilding costs. Rebuilding is capped at $50K but relocation is not capped, and the authorities have said in public that they try to be as expansive as possible in figuring out how to classify costs under relocation.

  • K September 7, 2024 (8:53 am)

    There are businesses on that list that aren’t being displaced by light rail.  Speaking on behalf of people who aren’t affected, and who very likely did not give you permission to misrepresent the facts using their name, is not a good look.  I want to help businesses that are being displaced, but I’m not getting into bed with whatever shady people created that petition to do so.

• Jim September 6, 2024 (10:15 pm)

  Ridiculous 

• Westseattle September 6, 2024 (10:21 pm)

  Amazing! One step forward for light rail!! 

• Platypus September 7, 2024 (12:16 pm)

  This is all really exciting. Seattle has grown a ton and will continue. Having alternatives to driving, not replacements, makes Seattle a more robust. Traffic by its nature is fragile, a single car accident can cascade throughout the city for hours. Having true alternatives is the pressure relief valve. Even if you never use it, you will benefit greatly from having a system that can handle more people than the west seattle bridge, with zero traffic, run perfectly. Additionally, it comes with great and much needed improvements to our roads, crosswalks, and sidewalks which we all use. Maybe you didn’t want it. But as many have pointed out, it both is going to happen and actually has to. Sound transit can’t not do it. So let’s make the best of the situation and shape it to what we want. I look forward to engaging with my neighbors in a productive capacity to create something truly great. 

• Notsoonenough September 7, 2024 (12:30 pm)

  Can’t come fast enough… If anything else, to shut down this useless ‘no light rail’ banter. It’s going to happen, and there’s nothing you can do about it. This is not a pickleball court in Lincoln Park, this is billions of dollars and hundreds of jobs. Time to completion is the only real variable that counts anymore. 

• Scarlett September 7, 2024 (5:27 pm)

  In a world where cost – financially, environmentally and human -is not an issue we could propose and implement any number of alternatives to cars, buses and bikes.   

  But cost is an issue and its especially a damn important issue  for some of our neighbors.   Where there is very substantial cost we have to scrutinize the benefit and ask ourselves whether a project like this is really worth it.  After all, a project that costs a billion a mile,  will emit massive quantities of CO2 into the atmosphere during construction and dislocate our neighbors had better fall under the heading of “transformative” or it is what I have called it from Day One, a juicy bone thrown to those who will design and build it.     

  • Bbron September 7, 2024 (6:31 pm)

    “ask ourselves whether a project like this is really worth it” answer: yes

• Scarlett September 7, 2024 (8:41 pm)

  Sorry my progressive friends, this is where I get off your train.  I can’t in good conscience betray my principle of “first do no harm,” and pretend that this West Seattle link is a net benefit for West Seattle.  The question is not whether many will find this it useful, even indispensable – some will of course- the question is whether the benefit to this subset justifies the immense cost overall.   After all West Seattle is hardly a public transportation desert as are some cities, as it is very well served by bus transit and the ocassional delay hardly justifies a billion-a-mile link, along with the other associated costs. 

  But on the environmental costs of light rail, supposedly a primary selling point, consider this. The average driver/car emits about 4 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere during the course of a year.   Let’s assume the driver logs an average of 10,000 miles per year.   To put 10,000 miles into a scale that we can understand, that is about 833 roundtrips between West Seattle and downtown Seattle at 12  mi/roundtrip, but lets round it off to 800 roundtrips. In 2022 it was  projected that the just completed Lynnwood link (which opened to  wildly euphoric crowds I’m sure) would emit some 64,000 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere during construction.  With some simple math, and again using the WS to downtown roundtrip comparison,  the CO2 produced by the Lynnwood link is very roughly equivalent to the CO2 that would be produced by 3,200,000 roundtrips by car (combustion engine) between WS and downtown.    

  Here are two facts that are non-debatable:  The front-end environmental costs of light rail are very significant, and secondly, there are no free lunches in life.         

• Arbor Heights Resident September 8, 2024 (8:45 pm)

  West Seattle supports this project because it is sorely needed. The whole area around the Junction is unrecognizable compared to 15-20 years ago, with all the new high density buildings. I shudder to imagine what traffic might be like in another 20 years without the Link. This is going to be such a game-changer.

  • AK September 9, 2024 (10:34 am)

    Speak for yourself! As a 30 plus year resident,  I and several other West Seattle Residents do not want it!

    • Arbor Heights Resident September 9, 2024 (5:46 pm)

      Only “several people” are opposed, while the overwhelming majority are in favor. West Seattle voted yes for ST3 by a wide margin. West Seattle wants light rail.

• Admiral September 9, 2024 (8:04 am)

  This is great! One step closer.  This concerted effort by the stop the rail folks to publish as many forum comments as they can to give a false sense that the population is against this is laughable.  You can yell as loud as you want but your arguments lack logic and you just look like the old man shaking his fist at the clouds.   The overwhelming voting masses still want this and recognize it for the huge value it brings. 

• Scarlett September 9, 2024 (11:15 am)

  A couple of years ago, the Seattle Times ran a segment on the Lynnwood link proposal and noted, with some concern, that an estimated 64,000 tons of CO2 would be dumped into the atmosphere during construction.

  How much is 64,000 tons of CO2 in terms we can understand?  Well, assuming that that the average car/driver emits about 4 tons of CO2 per year and drives an average of 10K/per year,  that works out to be well over 2 million trips between Lynnwood and downtown Seattle.  In other words, one could make over 2 million trips (2.3 mil to be precise) between Lynnwood and downtown Seattle before even equaling the CO2 produced by construction of the Lynnwood link. 

  Now, considering one of the primary selling points of light rail is removing CO2 producing cars from the roads, this presents an awkward moment for the light rail crowd.  After all, that is an awful lot of CO2 to recoup, even under the most optimistic ridership scenario’s – and its all dumped into the climate before a single rider boards.

  Some food for thought, though of the heartburn type for some.   

• KA September 11, 2024 (9:45 pm)

  1, 4 Billion dollars could fund a lot of rubber tired transit improvements AND provide everyone in West Seattle with a free Orca card for life.2. Even if they do this nonsense, why stomp all over West Seattle like Godzilla destroying our neighborhoods? Make the station footprints as small as possible. 

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