You can still cast your vote for Hillary

[beachdrivegirl]

Zenguy, i understand that racism/sexism do exist. IMO, though we will not see the changes of the equal opportunity act for a minimum of ten years? Why some people may ask. It is simple. The equal opportunity act is not an immediate fix. The men that got hired pre-equal opportunity are still in the work force. We are not going to displace them of their jobs that they are more qualified for (they are more qualified becuase they got the jobs pre-equal opportunity) and have more experience for because of some act. That is wrong. Furthermore, I personaly, do not believe that the equal opportunity act makes it okay for us to punish men that are qualified for positions/scholarships/education spots becuase of past experiences.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Thanks for bringing us back on task Ken. What a perfect statement to be released while we are all having this conversation.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

sexist, racist or selfish?

LOL.. no judgments there…

and not likely to win any new votes for Obama either.

If you could look past your prejudice towards any post that contains either the words Clinton or Hillary, you would find that we are talking about getting Obama elected.. and how to convince people who are not already convinced that it is in their best interests to vote for him… and i would have thought you would support that.

This is not the same conversation we were having before she conceded.

as for the employment stats…

i believe you will find the stats on average black male wages correlate with the stats on imprisonment… and those are deplorable.

Possible prosecution for crime is one area where there is no contest.. being a black male is about as high risk as you can get.

to look at the stats objectively.. you have to look at salaries for white males, white females, black males, black females and other minorities of both sexes for the same position.

those stats are incredibly hard to come by… and I don’t know where to find them..

but my educated guess is that you would find them illuminating.

BTW..

are you really ok with making 3/4 what a man does?

or do you believe you are protected from that sort of discrimination because of your position?

my experience with management in direct sales showed me that the appearance of equal wages was often deceiving even in commission sales… one of the more level playing fields.

the stats didn’t include hidden guarantees or bonuses not offered to all employees.

and there was no way to find out what those hidden agreements were unless one of your male counterparts begins boasting.. and even then it is difficult to prove.

the supreme court now says you must do so within the first 90 days (i think) of employment… so much for a law with teeth in it..

I doubt things have changed much since i left the workforce…

it’s something to think about next time you think sexism doesn’t affect you.

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[Ken]

What a perfect statement to be released while we are all having this conversation.

“he knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you’re awake, He knows when you’ve been bad or good so be good for goodness sake”

:)

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[Zenguy]

Amazing how timely this blog is sometimes. Go Obama, whether or not he did this on his own or at the prodding of Clinton is not as important as it happening. My mother is one of those 22 million that do not have sick leave, scares me a lot. Sure do not want her living with me, I love her but no.

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[JoB]

NewResident…

i am on the verge of being exceedingly sarcastic with you.. so i will do my best.

White males on average don’t get less opportunity than they got before.. but they do get less preferential treatment where mandated by law.

That’s kind of like being a good looking chick with long legs trying to get into the hottest new disco. There is no question that you will get preferential treatment… moved out of the line and in the door.. if there is no guest list.

(think Equal Opportunity laws here…)

if there is a guest list and you are not on it.. you are still likely more likely to get into the club faster than a short fat girl…

and if not that one.. you will get immediate entrance to the next one without a guest list.

that’s just how it works in our society for white males.. it’s like being a good looking woman in line at discos…

it’s not fair for men that they have to wait in line while good looking chickies move past the doorman with a wave and maybe a kiss on their cheek.. but there you go. it’s just the way it is.

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[JoB]

Ken..

santa baby… aren’t you lucky.

Well, luck or not that tickles my heart and gives me more than ample reason to take a break here and take my dogs out for their turn… promised when i caged them to go to the summerfest.

Really.. i couldn’t be happier..

and i could care less how it happened.

What i want more than anything is a democrat in the White House next year… at least we stand a chance at holding a democrat with a democratic congress accountable.

This is one giant step towards that goal…

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[Zenguy]

Interesting analogy JoB, what if she feels excluded because it a gay disco?

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB Iam not going to continue this discussion with you about Clinton supporters and Obama. *I* have repeated myself numerous times for months now to you as to how Obama/Clinton are similar. (healthcare, children, women etc.) I have also pointed out numerous times McCains weaknesses when it comes to those same issues. If an individual has been educated on the issues and still refuses to vote b/c Clinton is no on the ticket or decides they are goign to vote for McCain b/c Clinton is not on the ticket then yes I believe that they are either a) an extreme feminist b) racist c) selfish or d) a Republican or conservative that identified with McCain to begin with but had a dream of a women presiden which again goes back to the sexist.

I am not worried about what I make compared to my male peer. And I know for a fact that there are no hidden incentives for males in my company.

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[JoB]

Zenguy… LOL

it never occurred to me that she would stand in line at a gay disco.. but depending on how good she looked.. and New resident looks pretty good.. and how well she was dressed.. she still might get preferential treatment…

i know i did when i was the sweet young thing and used to go to the local gay dance club afterhours… after working in the restaurant business… for some reason hot looking women always got in…

go figure….

it was a great place to dance …

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[Anonymous]

JoB – Sorry that you seem to have to work so hard to “not get sarcastic” with me. I realize I’m no intellect, but you pointing it out to me helps to keep me in check.

I love the analogy…. I wish that would happen at some point in MY life!

I think, possibly, we are saying the same thing.

Using your analogy, though, I think you’re making my point. If this is a “hot new club”, the clientele that establishment is seeking is “hot young people”. By allowing a “hot” person through the door, while leaving the not-so-hot people in line outside is an example of that establishment choosing the most qualified.

Of course, when you talk in terms of positions/scholarships/grants (as BDG said), you wouldn’t look for the “hottest” of the bunch, but the best qualified for that specific position/scholarship/grant. By looking at (instead of “hottest”, lets use “color/sex”), you are being discriminatory.

The equal opportunity act should put everyone on an even playing field to be considered for every position/scholarship/grant. However, the very best qualified is the one who should receive it, regardless of how “hot” they are.

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[Anonymous]

I have waited in line at plenty of gay clubs…. and eventually got in.

Some of the funnest nights of my life!

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

while Clinton and Obama are certainly more similar to one another than to McCain … they are not the same.

If they were. you might as well have supported Hillary.

And it is still a choice whether or not to vote.

You choose to do so because your candidate is on the ballot.

Whether you would still have made that choice if he wasn’t is a good question.. since there were times when you equated Hillary with McCain… and you are no democrat. Lucky for you that we don’t have to test that, isn’t it.

i know how important casting a ballot is.. but it is a right, not an obligation…

there is nothing like a convert for righteousness …. and you are a convert to the necessity of making your vote count… but that still doesn’t give you the right to make moral generalizations about those who don’t choose to exercise that right.

Do you intend to work on the get out the vote campaign.. or will you just sit back and blame those who don’t support your cause?

I ask because when you are asking people for their vote.. you are a lot more effective if you let them tell you what matters to them and then explain to them why your candidate meets their needs…

as for wage discrimination.. i am tickled to hear that you are not among those who are discriminated against because they happen to be female.

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[Zenguy]

I will be will be at Summerfest Saturday afternoon for the 34th Dist Dems, I certainly do not want to end up in Novemeber a loser and wish I had done something more. Say hi.

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[beachdrivegirl]

I will Zenguy!

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[JoB]

NewResident…

we are not saying the same thing.

in the first place…

You didn’t get to be a hot young thing who could get into the club first thing through your own effort .. nor did i. you got lucky enough to be born with the raw assets… which i assume you make as much of as you can.. as did i.

( LOL.. i have to share that my finger stutter added an s to as.. and i nearly left it as it was so appropriate…)

so the hot chick and the white male share one thing in common… they got born with physical assets that make them more than equal when it comes to competition…

and even though they get preferential treatment. they may only look the part… and not in fact be the most qualified.

In the club example.. the short fat girl may be an incredible dancer… or an outragious flirt… which might be more advantageous to the club than the hot looking chick who just stands around.

and that holds true when it comes to the competitive environment for males as well.

Though the white male may look the part and have the credentials to back up his appearance.. he may not be the most most qualified… since his appearance alone will generate better credentials than that of his competition… because he is given more opportunity and resources to create those credentials than his competition… all because of his physical attributes.

He might have better stats, but not have the innovative mind of the “less qualified” applicant.

The real tragedy here is that the short fat girl doesn’t get the chance to strut her stuff because she doesn’t look the part…

just as the minority candidate might not get their chance to prove their potential without a law requiring that they be given an opportunity…

and all because they don’t look the part…

just to be clear about this.. i am including women when i speak of the minorities that white males compete against.

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[JoB]

Zenguy..

i will be with grandbabies sat afternoon.. far from summerfest… but i really look forward to meeting you soon.

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[JoB]

ok.. i have to take a break now. my dogs are mad at me.. and it’s not good to let puppies down.

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[Anonymous]

No. I don’t agree with that assessment.

Everyone has opportunity here in America. Contrary to what you think, it’s not just white men (why do you think so many foreigners move here?).

What you choose to do with that opportunity is your choice.

I know, we’ve had this conversation before.

See, but this is were I definitely am Republican. That is how I see it, just as you have your way of seeing it, and I don’t think either of us will see it from the others’ eyes.

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[Anonymous]

Actually, JoB, I went and thought about it a little more and I have concluded that, yes, we are saying the same thing (just from our different sides of the fence, if you will).

You have used your analogy to illustrate that no one should look at a white man and hand him anything he didn’t deserve (or is less qualified for) simply because he is white.

I used your analogy to illustrate that no one should look at a black man/woman and hand him/her anything simply because he/she is a black man/woman.

So, we are agreeing that basing opportunities given solely on “looks”, is not acceptable.

You are taking it a step further by insinuating that because of the color or sex of a person, they are more qualified.

But that is an injustice to minorities that are just as qualified (or more so) than white men. Do you believe, then, that Obama was given the position of editor of his Law Review without working for it? Or accepted into Columbia and then Harvard Law simply because he is black?

Of course you don’t. The equal opportunity act ensured that he was fairly considered, but his hard work is what got him there.

If a white man were just as qualified, with all of the equality laws in effect, he would have been passed up, simply because it came down to color, or how he “looked”.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB,

Yes Obama and Clinton are very similar on many issues. I chose to support Obama after going to the Caucus and hearing about *both*canidates. However, after I left the caucus, I realized just how different the canidates were. Some things that Clinton did in regards to the management or mismanagement of her campaign made me more and more assured that my vote for Obama was the right one to make. I did not support Hillary becuae of things that were brought up in my Caucus and her actions afterwards. Actually the only time I put McCain and HIllary in the same catagory was the gas tax which she was. And you are right I am not a Democrat I am an Independent i think it is silly to have to pledge teh loyalty to one party or another i think that it should be that the best canidate would win.

Yes, i plan to campaign for Obama. However, I will make my argument once maybe twice to soemone and then move on if they aren’t budging and find one or two new individuals to go after. You learn that in sales…to be exact what my manager says is “weed out the unprofitable prospects” and “increase the size of your funnel”…some Clinton supporters that are dead set that they were wronged will be those “unprofitable prospects” so my campaign tme for Obama will be better spent “increasing my funnel”

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

i hope you will accept coaching from the democratic party before you begin your campaigning…

In my experience campaigning, you are likely to meet a great deal of resistance before you get to conversation unless the person has already made up their mind to vote for your candidate and just wants to see what you will say.

politics tends to be much more personal than sales.

good luck.

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[Anonymous]

BDG – You’ll do just fine.

Having met you personally, you are a very engaging personality and speak eloquently. I know that you will do well campaigning.

Wish you were on my side!

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[Ken]

Speaking of making the sale…

Perhaps a new thread will fit this tangent. I need to write up a guerrilla guide to being a PCO for the GOTV push for new PCOs. The computer part of it will either get learned or it won’t. Each person has a personal level of tech that they can absorb within a finite time period.

Part of what a PCO has to do is knock on every door in their precinct. Some of these precincts are damn big.

But what to do when the door opens? What do you NOT want to see?

When campaign canvassers come to my door I quickly send them on down the street with info on the next three houses since I am aware of their issue or candidate and can quickly say yes, no or get off my porch and not waste their time.

What do you as door owners want to see in a local precinct committee officer when they knock on your door. Their backside running away?

I always have an ID tag and a business size card with my Name, email address and cell number on it in addition to whatever literature I have been given destined for your recycle bin.

I am going to try and get an email address and a phone number for the future since I don’t really want to be standing at your door in the cold cold October rain any more than you want to see me standing there.

My job will be to convince you to fill out that absentee ballot you dropped behind the radiator, or send in that voter registration guide I left you last month, or show up at the polls or caucus or if you are a republican, convince you that the election is on Saturday this year. (just kidding)

Seriously, can anyone tell me what is enough Get Out The Vote activity and what is too much. I get complaints about the number of robo calls from some of my neighbors and have even changed their phone number in the DB at their request so they can get enough sleep to work their second shift job. They are not going to change their mind and vote for McCain just because they missed one call from Mayor Nickles or Robert Redford. But they might vote for the camouflaged BIAW republican in a judges race. That is why we try to do face to face contact with every voter.

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[JoB]

NewResident..

We are not saying the same thing. Not even close. Not even the same thing from two different sides.

i would repeat that.. but it’s clear there is little benefit to do so.

I made a clear argument and supported it with an analogy that was easy to understand. That analogy does not support the opposing viewpoint.

no.. everyone in America does not have the same opportunity. it’s a great theory.. but all you have to do is spend an hour or two in White Center to see that the theory hasn’t worked out so well for the children there.

Or.. simply read the main page of the West Seattle Blog and note the dividing line down the middle of West Seattle that divides those kids who will have a wading pool available on Sunday and those who won’t. Guess which side the poor kids live on?

Bush’s no child left behind has created a scoring system for our schools which not only puts the disparity between the quality of schools for poor children as opposed to those with money in a glaring spotlight, but punishes the poor schools by withdrawing their already limited funding.

no.. opportunity is not equal.

If you can’t see that some simply don’t have the same opportunity as others in our country, it’s because you refuse to acknowledge the proof that is within easy eyesight.

There is an old saying about being able to lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.

I can lead you to information and show you examples until i am blue in the face if i am stupid enough to continue this charade.. but i can’t make you see what you choose to ignore.

You will choose to see only what you want to see.. and hear what you want to hear.

That’s not conversation. That’s scoring points… and i am not going to waste my time playing.

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