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November 16, 2011 at 3:32 pm #739402
JoBParticipantWorld citizen
and we are headed now the same dead end service economy that has failed Greece :(
November 16, 2011 at 5:27 pm #739403
kootchmanMemberYep. And those Greek ships? Foreign flagged, and built in Asia. Socialist rule.
November 17, 2011 at 1:06 am #739404
JoBParticipantNovember 17, 2011 at 1:56 am #739405
DBPMemberTo follow up on JoB’s (#23) post . . .
Enforcing the tax code won’t magically cure what ails Greece, but it will definitely help.
Here’s a decent article from a conservative source (Wall Street Journal) that describes the phenomenon and impact of tax cheating in Greece.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704182004575055473233674214.html
And just below is a handy-dandy graph from the article that compares the “shadow economies” of various countries. In this cluster, Greece is at the top, with a quarter of its economy hidden from the eye of the tax collector.
Just who are the tax cheaters in Greece anyway? Not surprisingly, it runs the gamut of social classes, but here are just a few individual cases as described in the article:
In a government survey last year of 150 doctors in Kolonaki, an upmarket Athens neighborhood, half of the doctors said they were paid less than €30,000 a year. Thirty said they made less than €10,000.
“It is not possible for a taxpayer to declare an income of €15,000 while at the same time maintaining a big house, a big car, a recreational boat and sending his kids to private school,” Mr. Papaconstantinou said Tuesday.
Repeated requests for comment on the survey of Athens doctors were unanswered by the Athens doctors association.
Dimitris Mavrogiannis, who owns an auto-paint shop in the New Kosmos district of Athens, says he usually issues receipts, especially as a lot of his work is for insurance companies, who insist on them. But he says he makes exceptions.
“In the majority of cases, I do issue receipts,” says Mr. Mavrogiannis, 58. “But sometimes people ask for a discount on the VAT tax and I say, ‘OK.’ “
“I work for a large Greek construction company … but of course, I have also done my own jobs on the side off the books,” says Alexandros Foukis, 27, a building contractor. “What the government needs to do is provide incentives to people to issue a receipt.”
Sound familiar, anybody?
Naw . . . What was I thinking!? I’m sure none of my Bloggy friends would ever hire (or work for) someone “off the books” . . .
Would you?
April 9, 2012 at 12:26 am #739406
kootchmanMemberwhy buy em’? Here is blue state voter registration. Makes ya feel real confident ….
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=GqMVxeZhflI&feature=player_embedded
April 9, 2012 at 1:58 am #739407
JanSParticipantwhy buy what? I’m lost here, I think…you saying why buy votes? on a 4 month old thread?
April 9, 2012 at 3:00 am #739408
kootchmanMemberThat’s the title of the thread… why buy em’ when you don’t have voter registrations with any degree of security… you can just go pick up handful of forms and register anyone….. asking for legitimate ID is voter suppression in “blue speak”….
April 9, 2012 at 5:02 am #739409
WorldCitizenParticipantVoter fraud is not a real issue.
April 9, 2012 at 5:11 am #739410
JanSParticipantKootch…ID is required to register…other than that…well, I suppose anyone could use a fake ID..not just “blue”..it goes both ways…get over yourself..
April 9, 2012 at 5:19 am #739411
WorldCitizenParticipantPlease read these if you have any desire to challenge my assertion:
http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/pdf/TruthAboutVoterFraud.pdf
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2010/10/fake_the_vote.2.html
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/02/381172/reince-priebus-voter-fraud/?mobile=nc
http://www.tampabay.com/news/in-florida-voter-fraud-is-rarer-than-shark-attacks/1219292
http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/policy_brief_on_the_truth_about_voter_fraud/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-voter-fraud/2011/10/04/gIQAkjoYTL_story.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122550597058490345.html
I could go on…
April 9, 2012 at 11:14 am #739412
kootchmanMemberNot on that clip was ID required. Amd should you be paying attention, it’s a political vendetta.. JaN did you notice ANY red states being sued by DOJ for rquiring a valid voter ID? Even though there are some blue states with picture ID requirements. The Brennan Justice Center? Now there is a fair and balanced view. Please… The video has more import.. because it actually happens. Did ya watch the guy walk out with qr voter registrations and the clerk say no idea required? Who would have ever imagined it would be easier to vote than to get sudafed? The ID is free… and shucks… all you have to do is go get one. That is too high a hurdle for active civic responsibility? You miss the important part.. there is no enforcement.. it’s hard to generate fraud stats when you have no mechanism to detect fraud. That makes as much sense as saying the FBI stops keeping any crime statistics so we no longer have bank robberies. You carry ATM cards, drivers licenses, welfare and food stamp ID… a voter ID is too high a hurdle? Why am I not surprised liberal sources say there is no problem?You could go on I suppose. but we lnow the Democrats do not want voter ID verification…
April 9, 2012 at 5:03 pm #739413
JanSParticipantI think people get sick and tired of your slanted view…it’s only blue states, it’s only the evil libs, it’s the way you liberals want it ( no one working, everyone feeding at the teat of the government), and on and on…like I said, get over yourself…it’s on both sides, and intelligent people know that.
April 9, 2012 at 5:09 pm #739414
JanSParticipantI’m a Democrat..and voter ID? sure…you register with a form of ID, and you get a voter registration card..that’s my ID…you don’t need to see my Drivers license in addition, or a special card to prove that I am who I am. Besides, I live in WA State,,,I vote by mail, so unless you want to come avisitin’ when I open my little packet, well..
statements like “but we lnow (sic) the Democrats do not want voter ID verification…” are simply baiting, generalizations. Seems to me that for one who wants government out of everything, you still want government in some things, huh, as long as it’s your agenda…
April 9, 2012 at 7:48 pm #739415
WorldCitizenParticipantOnce again…voter fraud is a NON ISSUE!!!!
Talking about it doesn’t make it one. Showing videos by a cut-rate edit king doesn’t make it one. In fact NOTHING you can find online makes it an issue because it isn’t one.
April 9, 2012 at 9:02 pm #739416
kootchmanMemberIt’s not a non issue. People are going to jail for it. Federal prison in fact. voter registration is no more an inconvenience than showing ID for a six pack. IF you look at the map, those states with lax voter ID are .. blue. That’s fact. Jan. So, you ;rove my point… Washington being a blue state has lax voting regulations. Thank-you.
Four Democratic party officials, including the St. Joseph County chairman Butch Morgan, have been charged with conspiracy, forgery, and official misconduct in the 2008 presidential primary
The state chairman of Indiana’s Democratic Party resigned Monday as a probe of election fraud in the 2008 Democratic presidential primary widened.
State law requires a presidential candidate to gather 500 valid signatures in each county to qualify for the ballot. Barack Obama may not have met it. Investigators think 150 of the 534 signatures the Obama campaign turned in for St. Joseph County may have been forged. Former Democratic Rep. Artur Davis, who is black, said vote fraud is rampant in African-American districts like his in Alabama.
Read more: http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/11352/1197406-373-0.stm#ixzz1rZvqWrEA
Although the organization prides itself for its registration efforts, it also has a long history of scandal. In the state of Missouri in 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud
more?
On February 10, 2005, Nonaresa Montgomery, a paid worker who ran Operation Big Vote during the run-up to the 2001 mayoral primary, was found guilty of vote fraud. Montgomery hired about 30 workers to do fraudulent voter-registration canvassing. Instead of knocking on doors, the volunteers sat at a St. Louis fast food restaurant and wrote out names and information from an outdated voter list. About 1,500 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in.
more?
In 2007, in Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted for fraud. In April of this year eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting bogus voter registration
more?
The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) was fined the maximum of $5,000 in Las Vegas today for its role in a massive voter fraud conspiracy.
Judge Donald Mosley said if an individual, as opposed to a corporation, had been before him, he would have handed down a 10-year prison sentence. “And I wouldn’t have thought twice about it,” he said, according to the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
Mosley criticized ACORN for making a “mockery” of America’s electoral process. “This isn’t a banana republic,” he said.
In April ACORN pleaded guilty to felony-level unlawful compensation for registration of voters. With the full knowledge of upper management,
more?
Judicial Watch recently uncovered massive voter fraud by ACORN in Colorado and ACORN settled a racketeering lawsuit in Ohio out of court last year and agreed to leave the state. In the settlement with the Buckeye Institute’s 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, ACORN agreed to “cease all Ohio activity” and surrender all its state business licenses.
How much voter fraud will you tolerate WorldCitizen? How about NONE?
There is plenty online… but shucks.. court records, guilty pleas… I guess they mean nothing. It is an issue.. and a Republican one too… their hands are not totally clean… It’s s non issue in your book… other states have a higher degree of sanctity for the worth and value of the vote. They are legislating accordingly
April 9, 2012 at 9:12 pm #739417
DBPMemberWorldCitizen said:
Once again…voter fraud is a NON ISSUE!!!! Talking about it doesn’t make it one. Showing videos by a cut-rate edit king doesn’t make it one. In fact NOTHING you can find online makes it an issue because it isn’t one.
WorldCitizen, do you dispute kootchman’s examples? Granted, it would’ve been nice if he’d cited them, but still . . .
Anyway, now I’m wondering . . . how many instances of organized voter fraud would it take for this to become an issue in your eyes?
kootchman implies that even one instance is enough to get riled up about. I don’t agree with that, but neither do I agree that this is “non-issue.” Surely there is some point at which we have to look at the problem and say, “Yes, this is something we need to take preventive action on.”
April 9, 2012 at 9:40 pm #739418
kootchmanMemberWhy cite them? In her own words….
“In fact NOTHING you can find online makes it an issue because it isn’t one.”
How can you argue with that.?
April 9, 2012 at 9:46 pm #739419
dobroParticipantHere’s something I posted in another thread…
No, it’s not. In the past decade (that’s decade-10 yrs) 311 cases of voter fraud have been prosecuted. 81 convictions. Hundreds of millions of voters. 81 convictions.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_12/the_evidence_bolstering_voterf034087.php
In the 2008 election alone over 130 million people voted. You can do the math. Voter fraud is not a problem. It’s all about vote restriction. Think back, remember when several US attorneys were fired by the Bush justice dept. Recall why they were fired? Because they refused to file phony voter fraud cases under pressure from Bushco. Republicans with integrity, willing to sacrifice their jobs rather than buckle to political pressure to misuse the law. Hard to believe?
It really happened.
And please stop confusing the issue of voter fraud with election fraud. They’re not the same thing. Registering false names and manipulating petitions is election fraud. Going to the poll and voting with a false identity is voter fraud. Showing ID when you come to a polling place addresses one of these things and not the other. According to statistics cited, one of these things is not a problem.
April 9, 2012 at 9:47 pm #739420
JanSParticipantDBP…and what preventive action should we take, if it’s an issue? Your opinion…
April 10, 2012 at 1:03 am #739421
WorldCitizenParticipantOK, so let’s just say that the couple of cases that are in the news count as something, as they should. What level of a problem is this? As stated above by dobro, the overall numbers just don’t add up enough to make this worth implementing a system that every neutral party admits would amount to massive voter disenfranchisement. This fraud, as well as the various other cases over the years, are held up in the limelight by those who know that it is in fact a way to decrease the role the poor and elderly play in elections…groups that vote overwhelmingly for left-leaning candidates.
One can say “voter registration is no more an inconvenience than showing ID for a six pack” and you’d be right. The problem isn’t showing the ID, it’s getting the ID. Just because your world view is limited to what you see as no big deal, doesn’t mean it’s not a massive struggle for countless others. But this doesn’t really get at your question, does it?
I’ll stick by my answer and say the instances are not enough to warrant our national attention. I will amend it to say that I agree with you that the acceptable number instances of voter fraud are zero. If you’d like to get at a way to increase the value and sanctity of every vote possible, then I would suggest doing it in a way that is much less burdensome on the individual. Again, I don’t find it a burden and obviously neither do you, but that doesn’t make it so for the rest of America.
I’ll also go on record as saying I don’t have a good answer for you as to how to change the system. I must insist, though, that any attempt to place the right to vote with the ability of an individual to get an ID is at best misguided and at worst nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to disenfranchise voters across the nation. That goes directly against your claim to care about the sanctity of the voting process.
I won’t sit back and let those who would use such overall insignificant events like this to limit the rights and voices of those most in need, just to gain selfish political advantage.
Oh, and as far as post #42 goes, well probably just not the best language for me to use in a text only format. The intent behind it was to say that none of the examples online add up to enough to make it an issue. That doesn’t make the fraud legitimate, it makes it insignificant.
April 10, 2012 at 1:27 am #739422
DBPMemberOK, well, now you guys have swayed me back the other way. I think dobro’s points (and statistics given) are persuasive.
My current thinking:
¶ Election/petition fraud still equals somewhat of a problem (maybe).
¶ Voter fraud, however, does not seem to be a problem. At least, not with these current numbers.
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Re: Election/petition fraud
kootchman suggested that in Indiana, the last Pres. primary outcome would have turned out differently if not for some Democratic officials in some counties who cheated and filed ballot petitions with bogus names.
I’m not so sure even of that. I think that if those dishonest, lazy-ass officials (alleged) hadn’t cheated, other honest officials would’ve gone out and gotten the Obama signatures legitimately.
Anyway, I actually feel smarter now as a result of reading a political thread on WSB. Gotta tell you, folks . . . that doesn’t happen very often.
Thanks everyone!!
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P.S. to Jan. Now that I’ve changed my mind and don’t think preventive measures need to be taken, I don’t have to answer your question. Right?
P.P.S. Weird to think that some people still don’t have a picture ID. How do they get anything done?
April 10, 2012 at 1:29 am #739423
jamminjMemberIf the argument is that there is voter fraud that decides our elections, then that explains the 2010 congressional elections.
thanks for pointing out the fraud kootch.
April 10, 2012 at 1:32 am #739424
JanSParticipantlol..DBP..you never, ever have to answer my questions….it’s OK…after all..other people simply change the subject – so I’m used to it :)
April 10, 2012 at 1:34 am #739425
jamminjMember“Weird to think that some people still don’t have a picture ID. How do they get anything done?”
when you make poverty level, not much you can do that needs an ID.
April 10, 2012 at 3:54 am #739426
redblackParticipantDP: charlie white was the indiana secretary of state who just got convicted for voter fraud. i guess he’s one of dobro’s 81 felons.
that’s why fox news is targeting south bend dems. it’s nothing more than a tit-for-tat revenge story.
however, it is important to note that the south bend dems are being accused of election fraud, not voter fraud.
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