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November 1, 2011 at 2:18 pm #601089
JoBParticipantNovember 1, 2011 at 2:43 pm #739378
redblackParticipantthanks, jo. this is something i suspected was happening, but the stupid liberal media doesn’t cover it.
kootch will come along in a minute to discredit it, though, because it was written by some liberal university staff.
a caution to those with dial-up or slower DSL: this is a 40-page, 8.7 MB .pdf file.
November 2, 2011 at 2:48 am #739379
kootchmanMemberyou do me a disservice… but yes, NYU is not the bastion of conservative thought. For Heavens sake redblack Justice Brennans’ biography is (one of them) is called “”liberal Champion”
So what’s new? You want and think unfettered, without restriction, union influence peddling is fine and dandy.. moral even. Others think it is an abomination and perversion of equal protections. So, we bring our best fight dogs to the fray. As my sweetheart homey would croon… “money changes everything”… as does the lack thereof. It’s the game. Every other part of government is up for sale… why not the judiciary?
But yes, the democratic core did outspend conservatives.. lawyers and lobbyists… I agree with ya on this one.
November 2, 2011 at 3:16 am #739380
HMC RichParticipantTwenty plus years now of Conservative Talk Radio, plus the internet has come to fruition I suspect. For years the radio hosts promoting conservative views have been griping about judicial activism from the bench.
And the Evangelical crowd once motivated will spend money on causes they believe in.
The right took the lead in the last election on spending. I bet it will even out in the coming years as the left rises to answer.
November 2, 2011 at 3:35 am #739381
redblackParticipantwtf?!
union membership is down to 7% of the nation’s work force. we’re a bunch of blue collar slobs fighting to keep our heads above water.
what kind of money or power do we wield that frightens you so much?
November 2, 2011 at 3:38 am #739382
kootchmanMemberWe will see. Liberals had a pretty good run at it… 50 plus years. That is, if the left can keep their instituions intact. So far, the dismemberment is pretty advanced. Unions, and parallel left wing groups (ACORN) are being taken apart bit by bit. I think the big “mo” has gone the other way. The rabble are just the foot soldiers. C’mon, do really think Rove, Norquist, hear a higher moral voice? No more than Obama, Gregoire, Trumka. Both sides carry the water buckets for someone else.
November 2, 2011 at 3:46 am #739383
kootchmanMemberya got the death grip on government… yes effectively unions are a non-issue in the private sector. But they are the government work force.. the ones that rule by government fiat. Haven’t you noticed the growing popularity of targeting government work force unions? Force them to downsize ny denying revenue to the government. When you assault an entrenched fortification .. 10 to 1 odds in favor of the entrenched. Unions know they can’t build the private sector base. They are roundly rejected time after time… they throw a blue collar bone out there once in a while… the last jewel left is white collar government workers. Repeal Davis Bacon and the blue collar labor movement is done.
November 2, 2011 at 3:59 am #739384
redblackParticipantman, you guys miss the point entirely.
our government is here for everyone. left, right, rich, poor, brown, white black…
it’s not here merely to facilitate market forces making more money for the wealthy.
when we talk about jobs, we’re talking about people’s livelihoods and their ability to sustain themselves, not just some means of making profits for someone with an acceptable level of ambition.
but i’ll bet you’d love it if electricians made $11 per hour. then you could save thousands on a whole-house rewiring job.
remember: you get what you pay for, and that goes double for workers’ wages.
November 2, 2011 at 10:38 pm #739385
kootchmanMemberNo they aren’t. They are here for the highest bidder, those most likely to put them in office for some goodies that someone else will pay for. . I have had absolutely shitty work done by union labor… testified in civil court many times. Also have had great examples of labor work. Being in the union is irrelevant to wether you are an honest businessmen or apply best practices skills. You are, I am, we are, making livelihoods because people of ambition have use and need of our services…and can make them profits. That is the point entirely.
November 3, 2011 at 1:44 am #739386
JoBParticipantkootch…
only conservatives believe that the government is there for the highest bidder…
that mistaken belief is why Occupy Wall Street continues to gain momentum in spite of the lack of a “clear message” .
November 3, 2011 at 4:40 am #739387
redblackParticipantBeing in the union is irrelevant to wether you are an honest businessmen or apply best practices skills.
and being a businessman is irrelevant to how qualified you are to lead.
what’s your point?
besides, if you’re in a union you’re not a businessman.
duh.
November 3, 2011 at 11:52 am #739388
kootchmanMemberLet’s try and connect the dots. read the sentence carefully redblack.. slowly if you must. Dishonest businessmen who send union labor, will screw you to the floor. If your “craft” requires a skill set, and in the absence of close supervision, one chooses to take short cuts.. tuck the wires the wrong way, not chisel deep enough into the concrete etc.. what advantage is their to union labor? None. Being in business is a winnowing process to be sure. IF you think you are qualified AND have capital to risk.. you are free to try and prove it. The market will judge. I have seen a lot come and a lot go.
November 3, 2011 at 12:01 pm #739389
kootchmanMemberSure JoB… it is a veritable tidal surge. I don’t suggest they have a clear message, or think they should. Watch Greece. A federal government that exerts state control over every segment of enterprise, and a population entrenched in the notion of entitlements. So gutless is the government, so wedded to the entitlement state, that when being rescued, it won’t even grab the life line being offered. Too afraid to take the neccessery steps towards some austerity. That’s the movement that is the more telling. All that sugar cake… somebody has to pay. Trouble is they taxed themselves into “fairness” and who would invest a dime there? They no longer have a private sector left to jump start a recovery. Too deep in debt for their economy to address the deficit. A “fair” and bankrupt country.
November 3, 2011 at 1:56 pm #739390
redblackParticipantkootch:
point of clarification:
when you said, “being in the union,” i thought you were talking about the labor side of the contract. laborers and craftsmen are in the union. employers are rarely union members themselves.
i think you meant to say, “whether or not you sign a contract for union labor is irrelevant to wether[sic] you are an honest businessmen[sic] or apply best practices skills[sic].”
November 3, 2011 at 2:23 pm #739391
JoBParticipantkootch..
read slowly and connect the dots?
so you jump from occupy wall street to greece
and then to the assumption that the austerity measures there are necessary to it’s economic health
dude.. connect the dots
build an argument one step at a time.
your union argument would have benefited from the same attention.
you seem to forget that it is workers who run those wires and workers who check to see that the work is done well.
when workers are overworked and underpaid.. when they are spending more time worrying about the welfare of their families than about the job… the work suffers and the bottom line suffers.
the prosperity America once enjoyed.. the prosperity that educated us both and gave us the chance to move from less to more… was based on the combined efforts of workers and capital… what we used to call teamwork.. back when you worked your entire life for a company.. not just collecting a paycheck but gaining experience that increased your company’s effectiveness until you retired with the pension that was part of your deferred wages.
then wall street bean counters took over and decided that capital was more valuable than actual product and look where that has led us… to the brink of economic collapse.
and you can’t figure out that labor is essential to product? get a grip.
I know the educational system you were educated in and even at it’s worst, it produced better thinkers than that.
so… read the link
it doesn’t say what you think it does.
November 3, 2011 at 9:45 pm #739392
miwsParticipantNovember 4, 2011 at 4:29 am #739393
JoBParticipantmiws..
is FTW a good thing
i will take my answer offline if the explanation is less than polite…
November 4, 2011 at 6:39 am #739394
JanSParticipantJoB..FTW…for the win :)
November 4, 2011 at 4:28 pm #739395
JoBParticipantNovember 6, 2011 at 9:08 am #739396
kootchmanMemberThe main point… Greece taxed itself beyond its capability to repay its debt. It was so government sector dominated, it no longer has an effective capitalist economy to raise the kinds of wealth needed to meet is entitlements and solve its debt. 27 per cent of the work force is government employed.. creating no wealth, adding value to nothing. And my fellow citizens see it, should know we are heading in the same direction… but cry full steam ahead.
I didn’t say I believe the government “should be up for sale”.. I said it IS up for sale. C’mon even the most casual observer sees at least that much. And the returns are breathtaking….
indeed redblack… that is a more accurate penning.
November 6, 2011 at 3:24 pm #739397
JoBParticipantkootchman
your assumption that a capitalist economy will raise wealth only applies if that economy creates jobs that sustain the government’s ability to raise revenue.
when that doesn’t happen
you get the current crisis in America
Yes, we should look to Greece.. but not for the reasons you state.
There is plenty of wealth in Greece…
but most of it remains untaxed wealth either through tax code manipulation or illegal avoidance.
Greece has a HUGE revenue problem…
Untaxed wealth doesn’t necessarily create jobs. It certainly didn’t in Greece.
citizens can no longer afford to turn a blind eye to government by corporations for the benefit of corporations.
This is still technically a democracy…
If we take back our process we still have a chance to regain balance
November 11, 2011 at 4:48 pm #739398
kootchmanMemberSure.. and Italy just raised the retirement age to 65 for women, are cutting back on pensions, taking away politicians benefits, pay cuts for government workers, … Spain to follow… all the rants and raves on how progressive the the Euro model is…and half the countries are in deep shit. Greece has a MASSIVE deficit and spent in 2010 10% more then it generated in revenues. That’s what happens when you spend and spend and spend… you lose your options. They are down to selling state assets. That’s where liberal, “progressive” tax policy get ya, Broke
November 11, 2011 at 4:55 pm #739399
JoBParticipantkootchman…
this morning.. one year away from next year’s elections.. Karl Roves big spending political PACs and special interest groups have begun attack ads on democratic candidates…
it’s going to be a very long very expensive year.
You are a businessman.
Do you think they are expecting some pretty big returns from that investment?
How is it that you concentrate on government expenditures that benefit citizens but ignore the great corporate feed trough that is the result of this kind of election spending?
You aren’t for less spending Kootch.
You are for less spending that benefits citizens.
there is a difference.
November 16, 2011 at 5:05 am #739400
kootchmanMemberOh you wrap that blanket on someone who needs it and believes it. Government spends to buy votes, to entrench an intolerable political class. They call everything a “benefit” to citizens. 17 Trilllion by 2012… that’s the deficit. All that spending to “benefit” the citizens? We can’t afford all those benefits. You can’t tax it away. Not even the most reality deprived socialist doesn’t understand that. If there WAS wealth in Greece.. then the banks would not have to be recapitalized now would they? And more telling, the couldn’t be recapitalized,,, the piggy bank was empty. Now tell me how you figure Greece has wealth? It’s gone.. it fled years ago. It was a hostile confiscatory, government.
November 16, 2011 at 5:35 am #739401
WorldCitizenParticipantFYI:
“Greece has a predominately service economy, which (including tourism) accounts for over 73% of GDP. Almost 9% of the world’s merchant fleet is Greek-owned, making the Greek fleet the largest in the world. Other important sectors include food processing, tobacco, textiles, chemicals (including refineries), pharmaceuticals, cement, glass, telecommunication and transport equipment. Agricultural output has steadily decreased in importance over the last decade, accounting now for only about 5% of total GDP. The EU is Greece’s major trading partner, with more than half of all Greek two-way trade being intra-EU. Greece runs a perennial merchandise trade deficit, and 2009 imports totaled $64 billion against exports of $21 billion. Tourism and shipping receipts together with EU transfers make up for much of this deficit.”
Source: U.S. Dept. of State
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