- This topic is empty.
-
AuthorPosts
-
July 17, 2012 at 10:00 pm #762469
kootchmanMemberDPB… taking the discussion of subsidizing crap food with food stamps is as logical as ignoring the anopheles mosquito when seeking to alleviate malaria. It can’t be done. Better not to not even begin the discussion. That subsidy extends to the agro industry. The cautionary bells are ringing loudly… “big” government programs live on and on to justify themselves. wanna make America helathy? A national BMA of 22 will do more than the ACA by far…
ACA HAS degraded the quality and the availability of healthcare in its min form, Romneycare. Providers are leaving, wait times have increased five fold.
July 18, 2012 at 4:31 am #762470
redblackParticipantDP:
First we need to listen to what THEIR main issues are. Then we need to identify what OUR main issues are. Then we need to consider alternative proposals to see which ones are acceptable to both sides.
objection!
the “other side” – i.e. the sycophants for the health insurance industry – have had decades to debate this issue. they’ve had multiple shots at governing and regulating.
they have failed at every turn or simply turned their backs on the issue in favor of allowing the insurance industry to manipulate our health care industry.
when the public complains about high premiums and low access, the “other side” has two – and only two – answers:
1. tort reform. this is code for, “you people are destroying incompetent or corrupt doctors’ businesses when they (patients) get screwed and subsequently sue said doctors.”
2. the “state lines” argument. this model would allow insurance companies greater ability to charge california rates for wyoming service.
enough said. i don’t want to sidetrack what i want to say next:
kootch:
i’ll stipulate the single-payer argument. for now.
but that’s not the topic. (you’re right in one sense but fundamentally wrong about single-payer, but, like i said, i don’t want to sidetrack the main issue here.)
the topic is PP/ACA, which is an admittedly gargantuan piece of legislation aimed at bringing health insurance companies to heel and to stop them from eating up 17% of GDP while simultaneously bankrupting anyone who doesn’t have access to platinum-plated insurance coverage.
don’t change the subject.
the subject is:
what’s wrong with obamacare? the specifics – what few there are – about “the massive takeover of the health care industry” are blatant lies.
defend those allegations, debunk the myths, or retract, please.
…or admit that you’re intentionally lying to mislead anyone who might have the incredible patience to have kept reading this thread into voting against obama – while not necessarily voting for willard romney.
July 19, 2012 at 12:10 am #762471
DBPMember>>ACA HAS degraded the quality and the availability of healthcare in its min form, Romneycare. Providers are leaving, wait times have increased five fold. —kootchman
—OK. That’s a start. You’re saying that ACA is just like Romneycare. Doctors have left and wait times have increased under Romneycare, so we can expect the same thing under Obamacare.
I’m not going to ask you to support those claims with a source. I’ll just take them on faith. But I do have a follow-up question:
Why are doctors leaving and why are wait times increasing under Romneycare?
—If you don’t know, it’s ok to say you don’t know. You won’t be penalized.
July 19, 2012 at 3:07 am #762472
JoBParticipantJuly 19, 2012 at 3:08 am #762473
kootchmanMemberJuly 19, 2012 at 3:10 am #762474
kootchmanMemberI posted them.. wait times are increasing, because, 1, doctors will not accept Romneycare patents, 2, doctors are leaving private practice. 3 some will not practice medicine where there best judgement is questioned by a bureaucracy. 4, like all “freebies” the system gets over utilized. The interesting point is … and this is almost too hysterical… “give me specifics” the democrats passed Obamacare and NO ONE read it. which is even more stupid… and indicative of a shove in down your throats.
while we have the votes an can attitude. WE still don’t know all of Obamacare… more is being written. You passed it not knowing what the hell was in it… let’s repeal it.. and replace it.. and THIS time, before it gets passed you WILL get to see it. How about that?
JUST to report to the federal government… every doctor will have to invest a minimum of 20K for software alone. And hey,, but F==k the federal government, it’s none of their business if I am being treated for whatever malady I have. Tell, ya if YOU love it so much… sign up. Leave the rest of us out of it. Join arm in arm with your fellows and join up. Pay for this wonderful program amongst yourselves.
And this… this most of all
1 – Debt levels vary greatly from state to state. Some states, such as California, are facing crushing budget deficits that simply don’t allow for the new spending required by Obamacare without cutting spending to other vital areas. Massachusetts could afford the increase in budget expense because Romney balanced the state budget before implementing RomneyCare
Mass was the highest per capita income state in the union… and already had the highest private insurance enrollment of any state. It was a marginal improvement. How is Ill, CA, OH, going to implement a program unless they cut education for instance? The DON”T HAVE THE MONEY…. Florida says it CANNOT afford it. That is why we have states… autonomous government operating units. If WA wants it … fine.. let’s vote it in. Don’t act surprised when people and business vote with their feet and leave another “welfare state”.
Today, the Massachusetts Medical Society has released a report stating more than 50% of primary care physicians in the state aren’t accepting new patients. wait times to see a primary care doc are now over 48 days. Dude.. my concierage plan has a 48 HOUR contractual obligation… and I pay less than $700 per year for the expedited service. This will be the new “norm”… we will see ya when we can get to ya… unless you pay for concierage coverage… and we are right back where we started. Limited access. Only now.. everything costs more. Simply, doctors are not accepting for instance.. the audits… which they have to pay for, and the auditing program is a “bonus” program, the auditors can fine each doc 11,000 per patient, for each violation… and then has to pay the audit fee. No good doc will submit to that… and medical privacy is sancrosanct… a paid auditor looking through my medical records? Bullshit!
Instead of listening to Pelosi talking points… and her stupidity… get it directly from the horses mouth… the providers themsleves.
Now you have your “acceptabel source” and reasons.
I will highlight some of them.. ready?
The survey included seven physician specialties and examined three areas:
wait times for new patients getting non-emergency appointments with a physician;
percentages of physicians accepting new patients;
and
physician acceptance of Medicare, MassHealth (Medicaid), and Commonwealth Care and Commonwealth Choice, the latter two offered by The Health Connector, an independent state agency that helps Massachusetts residents find health care coverage and which was established as part of the state’s health care reform five years ago.
results
ACCESS TO PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIANS
Access to primary care physicians is becoming more restricted, as more than half of primary care practices – 51% of internists and 53% of family physicians – are not accepting new patients.
WAIT TIMES FOR NEW PATIENTS
Primary Care Long wait times continue for the primary care physicians of internal medicine and family medicine who are accepting new patients. The average wait time for an appointment for internal medicine is 48 days, The average wait time for pediatricians – primary care for youngsters up to age 18 – was 24 days, the same as last year. Seventy-three percent of pediatricians are accepting new patients.
Specialty Care All four specialties reported longer wait times: gastroenterologists, 43 days, up from 36 days; obstetricians/gynecologists, 41 days, up from 34 days; orthopedic surgeons, 26 days, up from 17 days; and cardiology, 28 days, up from 26 days.
Primary Care The gap between primary care physicians accepting Medicare and MassHealth is striking. While most internists (85%) and family physicians (87%) accept Medicare, significantly fewer of both (53% of internists) and (62% of family physicians) accept MassHealth.
Even fewer accept Commonwealth Care (43% of internists; 56% of family physicians) and Commonwealth Choice (35% of internists; 44% of family physicians).
Similar differences were found for pediatrics: 89% accept MassHealth, but only 50% accept Commonwealth Care and only 45% accept Commonwealth Choice.
Definitions of Insurance Plans:
Medicare is the U. S. government sponsored health insurance program for people age 65 or older or under age 65 with certain disabilities. http://www.medicare.gov
MassHealth is a public health insurance program for eligible low and medium-income residents of Massachusetts. MassHealth is the name used in Massachusetts for Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), combined in one program. http://www.massresources.org
Commonwealth Care is a health insurance program for low and moderate-income Massachusetts adults 19 and older who don’t have health insurance and who are ineligible for Medicaid. Members get free or low-cost health services through managed care health plans. http://www.mahealthconnector.org
Commonwealth Choice is a health insurance program for uninsured adult Massachusetts residents. The program offers unsubsidized health insurance to people who are not eligible for Medicaid or Commonwealth Care. http://www.mahealthconnector.org
There ya go… all the BS posted here about “Mass loves it” or “no one is having problems getting access” is rhetorical nonesense… this is from the actual providers.
My arse would I wait 25 days for my sick child to see a pediatrician… they would be seeing my critter at the point of a shotgun the next damn day! I’ll take the consequences. Gladly.
Oh yea… and guess what? Emergency room visitations are UP… not down. So much for cost containment. Or the arguement that E Room visits are the most expensive.. the wait times are forcing more utilization of E rooms, not less.
A month to see a cardiologist after waiting two months to see the orimary care doc for the referral… and then .. a 50/50 chance one or the other may or may not accept your coverage. The stress will kill ya if the cornonary obstruction doesn’t… you’ll be in the Emergency room… same as before.
Copy the URL’s … so we don’t get “source that information”.. here is your source. The doctors themselves.. funny… the congressman and senators who ARE physicians are opposed to it.. but we paid them no heed.
18 of the 20 Doctors in Congress support repealing Obamacare
Jeeez … can ya even guess what befuddled old man was one of the docs supporting Obamacare?… Bagdad Jim McDermott … wadda surprise!!!
Altogether, the 112th Congress has 20 doctors, including five surgeons, five gynecologists, two ophthalmologists and a psychiatrist, according to the AMA. It also has two dentists. Only two of the doctors are Democrats: Rep. Jim McDermott of Washington and Del. Donna M. Christensen of the Virgin Islands.
July 19, 2012 at 5:01 am #762475
DBPMemberOK, that’s a lot of material to get through, kootch but, by golly, I’m gonna do it.
Thanks for providing the data and the relevant sources, too. (They all look to be solid, unless this Mass. Medical Society turns out to be some kind of attack group.)
In any case, I can see I’m going to have my work cut out for me.
;-)
July 19, 2012 at 7:02 am #762476
kootchmanMemberYea. you’ll get single payer… after Act ll of another civil war. If you prevail. Methinks the very very smaartest thing to do… is let local and state governments make their own decisions. It’s good business practice, it’s required military tactics….we push decisions downwards to the lowest possible level to achieve an objective. Keeps ya feeling free.. that way a good ole boy or gal from Kansas can say.. ” live like one of those damn liberals in Seattle, hell no, they have no common sense”… and we keep marching forward. Your moral high road, is not their moral high road. Gather yee unto your like kind.. and leave the rest of us to do as we see fit. what is it redblack likes to say ? “we are one country?”… no we are not. We are a relatively successful conglomerate of tribes because we leave each other alone..this forced aggregation is the polarizing effect. We have NOT reached a national consensus… it might take another 40 years.. it may never happen…all ya have is an argument, and some persuasion to do. I don’t know where the threshold is… but a simple majority isn’t really enough. We should have learned that lesson by now.
Here… from the liberal shill.. Pew Research…
Reporting from Washington — Only 22% of all Americans surveyed said they trusted the government in Washington almost always or most of the time — among the lowest measures in half a century — according to a Pew Research Center survey released Sunday night.
Nearly as many Americans also give the antigovernment response to a question asking whether government should do more to solve the country’s problems or whether it is doing too many things that should be left to businesses and individuals. Today’s 58% saying it is doing too much is just slightly below the 59% to 60% levels recorded in the mid- to late ’90s.
see what I am saying? It’s time to back off …. we as a nation want LESS government in out lives.. not more. That’s 78 per cent who don’t feel that the federal government is trustworthy always or most of the time.
Let’s compare another poll.. Pew in my tracking program is not as accurate as most others.. so let’ use…. Gallup
PRINCETON, NJ — Record- or near-record-high percentages of Americans are critical of the size and scope of government, as measured by four Gallup trend questions updated in September. This sentiment stretches to 59% of Americans now believing the federal government has too much power, up eight percentage points from a year ago.
When the National Election Study first asked the question in 1958, 73% of Americans said they trusted the government to do what was right most of the time.
Overreach…
Shop locally, act locally… and leave everyone else alone.
July 19, 2012 at 1:14 pm #762477
redblackParticipant1, doctors will not accept Romneycare patents
wrong. there is no such thing as “romneycare,” any more than there is a government-run insurance company under the ACA.
2, doctors are leaving private practice.
yes. some retire, new ones come up from medical school. there is no surplus of labor in the health care industry.
3 some will not practice medicine where there best judgement is questioned by a bureaucracy.
this doesn’t pass the sniff test. there is no bureaucracy “running” the health care industry in massachusetts, outside of the insurance industry, of course.
4, like all “freebies” the system gets over utilized.
it ain’t free. it’s insurance.
you really believe that stuff, don’t you? and you’re tying yourself in knots trying to make it true.
July 19, 2012 at 1:19 pm #762478
JoBParticipantkootch..
you are asking the wrong questions.
ask people if they want the health insurance industry to determine their health care options and you get a different answer.
especially if you are asking one of those Americans who was denied health insurance or coverage for a medical condition before the “government got involved in health care”
and for pete’s sake..
stop threatening physical violence if you don’t get your way
“after Act ll of another civil war”
nobody likes a bully
July 19, 2012 at 1:47 pm #762479
miwsParticipantJuly 20, 2012 at 2:29 am #762480
kootchmanMember.Oh now we are asking the wrong questions? I am answering the questions posed by Messer DPB.. and the answers. Not us from afar.. from those that deliver the care. Asking anyone else is like asking someone in the street… is that 787 a good, durable plane? I dunno know, not really, I just go along for the ride.
We have a full blown civil war in progress. Those that want and those that don’t want a nationalized do everything nanny state. Right at the moment.. most don’t trust, or want it. Liberals do, conservatives don’t. We just had a record year… more states have filed more suits against the federal government than any time in our national history. It’s a relatively “civil” civil war.. inasmuch as we are willing to accept the civil solutions. No one wants to repeat Bull Run… or the like. But the strains on the whole union are getting tenser. The majority doesn’t like the offerings. More states are telling the federal government to shove it… we are reasserting our sovereign rights and forcing you back into the riverbed.
while the outcome was not wholly to conservative liking…. the states won… by a vote of 7-2 the federal government cannot force commerce to happen under the commerce clause. And.. by a 5-4 vote, the called it what is is, the largest tax increase in our history. I can work with that. we have hundreds of years of experience killing off taxes…. and the state were specifically given the right in that decision to ignore Obamacare without retributive actions levied against them.
July 20, 2012 at 2:40 am #762481
kootchmanMemberOK redblack… I’ll restate it in economic terms.. that which is subsidized will increase” subsidized health care means it will be used more often… and it has.. see? wait times are up, emergency room visits are up… quality has gone done in a universal way… now everyone is getting worse car.. bravo!
July 20, 2012 at 3:44 am #762482
JoBParticipantkootch..
i sewm to remember that this state was one of those that files suit..
but not at the citizen’s bidding as your statements imply.
July 20, 2012 at 8:18 am #762483
kootchmanMemberThe soon to be governor … filed suit to preserve the sovereign status of the State of Washington. As his job. In fact if I am not mistaken… a MAJORITY of states filed. 29 wasn’t it?
July 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm #762484
redblackParticipantwho is subsidizing health care under the ACA?
where do you get this stuff? do you just make it up?
look. you can whine and cry about government all you want, but here’s the real difference between governing philosophies:
liberals believe that government is us – all of us – and that it’s how we steer ourselves as a people. we decide what we want to get done collectively and for whom and we put people in office to make it happen. it’s the wheelhouse of the ship of state.
especially in the wake of citizens united v FEC, conservatives seem to be advocating for a sort of oligarchy, plutocracy, or a sort of loose confederation of loosely-governed economic modalities in the states, in which those with money and power can influence government to benefit themselves or curtail it altogether when it’s inconvenient for them. conservatives of lesser means follow along dutifully, thinking that they, too, will become wealthy and that it’s somehow a good model for them.
i observe how conservatives talk about government: it’s the same way i talk about corporations. you all talk about government as if it’s a malignant outside force bent on taking your money merely for the sake of controlling you.
i think that’s sad, and it shows very little faith in your country.
July 21, 2012 at 10:57 pm #762485
kootchmanMemberFunny…. too too funny. where was your moral outrage when unions dumped hundreds upon hundreds of millions into Democratic campaign coffers? Oh… that was different. That was your ox.
Liberals don’t believe it is all of us… far from it. They believe in very distinct classes of people, not the collective whole. Conservatives believe the whole is comprised of individuals.. and I’ll be damned,,, so does the US constitution… in it’s historical context.
When we have the competence of Capt Edward J Smith at the national wheelhouse..self preservation cries out for mutiny!!! Even those in steerage would be better served with a mutiny.
Pew Research:
Reporting from Washington — Only 22% of all Americans surveyed said they trusted the government in Washington almost always or most of the time — among the lowest measures in half a century — according to a Pew Research Center survey released Sunday night.
July 21, 2012 at 11:02 pm #762486
kootchmanMemberA subsidy can be monetary, regulatory, or even tacit approval… in the case of Obamacare it is all of the above.
July 22, 2012 at 4:25 pm #762487
redblackParticipantwhere was your moral outrage when unions dumped hundreds upon hundreds of millions into Democratic campaign coffers? Oh… that was different.
there was no outrage. i support and defend every nickel of that effort, because it represents people who work with their hands, who far outnumber people who shuffle paper and collect dividend checks.
conversely, unions’ campaign money comes nowhere near the $2 trillion in cash that the private sector has at their disposal to buy any old office they want.
They believe in very distinct classes of people, not the collective whole.
really? is that why you call us socialists?
you’re describing yourself, and furthermore, you’re defending – even furthering – the stratification of society.
July 23, 2012 at 9:09 am #762488
kootchmanMemberYea.. we know “why” you want us to believe in “all of us”… we do prefer the looser confederation of individuals who need to gather from time to time for a national purpose. But, the affiliations are and should be loose.
BTW we are not a nation of hand workers and haven’t been for a long time. We are a service and knowledge economy.. hence the misfit and misperceptions. You don’t like unfettered private money… 50 years of unrestricted labor money has driven us to the verge of national insolvency. Just call it economic equal rights. You haven’t seen 2 trillion in cash dumped in any campaign. This election cycle.. you are going to get outspent.. not a problem when you were doing the spending though? I defend every nickel and dime free enterprise spends to be heard over the voice of vote selling unions. Stratification over homogenized every time dude.. every time. Stratification is an outcome… has ever been thus. I am not not at all concerned that their is a counterweight to union money. See.. this election is close when both sides get a voice. You made access to government a matter of money… unions set the precedent.
July 23, 2012 at 12:49 pm #762489
redblackParticipantnice revisionist history lesson. thanks for the laugh.
July 23, 2012 at 2:46 pm #762490
JoBParticipantkootchman..
you know that unions dumped “hundreds of millions” into democratic coffers because that was disclosed.
you even knew why they supported the candidates they endorsed…
to promote the interests of labor… you know.. those people who work for a living.
who is funding the republicans?
and why are they afraid of disclosure?
and what do they expect to get out of it?
what are they hiding that they don’t want the American people to know?
could it be that the policies they are promoting are not in the best interests of American citizens?
July 23, 2012 at 2:52 pm #762491
JoBParticipantkootch..
“50 years of unrestricted labor money has driven us to the verge of national insolvency.”
really?
so can you explain to me why national economic growth stagnated as those policies were eroded?
can you explain to me why the wealth of the vast majority of Americans decreased while the wealth of the the few increased exponentially?
can you explain to my why the effective tax rate for the top 1% is 15% while the effective tax rate for the rest of us is 40%?
Did you know that the difference between the tax collected from the top 1% and the tax that would be collected if they were taxed at the same effective rate as the rest of us would cover the entire budget of the United States for the year?
the difference kootch…
not the total.
you keep telling us it wouldn’t make much difference if we taxed the uber-rich.
That’s obviously not true.
who is bankrupting us kootch?
it isn’t the citizens of this nation.
July 24, 2012 at 9:06 am #762492
kootchmanMemberYes I can… all those state and local taxes to subsidize a government growth rate that exceeds the growth rate of the state economy. A 40 per cent tax rate? Ha ha ha ha… you’ll be knitting around the campfire forever..wondering.. what ever happened to jobs? Remember those?
Here;s the number ya need to look at… the top 10 per cent pay 70 per cent of taxes.. the 1 per cent pay 37% …. that’s good enough for me. 90 per cent pay 30 per cent of income taxes. You are doing a lefty.. rolling state and local taxes into federal taxes and then pulling them out when comparing income tax?
Got some cover for ya though…. you can come down to earth..
“Major Democratic funder Nick Hanauer’s recent email blasting Democratic lawmakers for failing to buck the teachers union and push for education reforms will go down as the tough-love message heard around the state.
“It is impossible to escape the painful reality that we Democrats are now on the wrong side of every important education-reform issue,” wrote Hanauer, a Seattle venture capitalist, to other party faithful.
“Today, the (teachers union) is literally strangling our public schools to death with an almost infinite number of institutionalized rules that limit change, innovation and excellence.”
I fully comprehend that Democrats are in a tough spot, but their reluctance to buck one of their biggest benefactors is what I don’t get. Where would the union go?
For lawmakers, it will be hard to tell that ally, “I’m sorry, but I can’t support you on this issue.” But that’s leadership. Tough love is difficult but as any parent will tell you, it’s necessary sometimes.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2017562941_lynne22.html
Republican message is getting through… Wisconsin was by every fiscal yardstick a roaring success. And Wisconsin taxpayers are delighted… Scott’s ratings are rising and the NEA is scared to death. Enjoy the read… you can use it to sorta “change” your position… A black, liberal, woman says it… it gives ya some cover .. a trifecta of political correctness!
Not one dime more to be wasted. We are not feeding a parasite anymore. The veins are closed. How’s our messaging going over? Is Wa going red? No… but we will be at the Republican Governors conference next year I am thinking.
July 24, 2012 at 12:50 pm #762493
redblackParticipantYes I can… all those state and local taxes to subsidize a government growth rate that exceeds the growth rate of the state economy
while petulant, mostly wealthy taxpayers stamped their little feet and held their breath until the big, mean government cut its own throat.
don’t forget that part of your history lesson, professor.
some day you should look up the GINI index and consider the reasons why we have a large centralized government. there actually is a very good reason for it. quite a few, in fact.
say, what did happen to jobs, anyway?
why don’t you ever talk about voodoo economics? is that wealth ever going to trickle down? or are we just supposed to be satisfied with retail careers instead of skilled jobs?
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.