Tonight: W.S. Preaching Pastor Mark on Nightline, ABC – link

[PlaneGuy]

I watched it. What an arrogant SOB. Mark made mention that the Starbucks mermaid atop their headquarters building is an ‘idol’? “It is exalted” Are you kidding me? It is their HEADQUARTERS. They want to be prominently seen. A true fraud and real-life jacka**. I’ve met him, and his smugness on Nightline is his real persona. Just a nobody who has managed to get his face in front of the camera too many times.

WTFWJD?

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[KBear]

As much as Seattleites love their coffee, I’ve never heard of anyone worshipping the Starbucks mermaid.

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[texas]

ellenater: perfect! I’ve got to read that book. Couldn’t get any more descriptive of Mark Driscoll.

I should mention that not only is he indoctrinating the vulnerable, he is doing damage to those who love them as well, pitting mother against child, brother against brother. There’s a good book on that dynamic, too: Eric Hoffer’s True Believers.

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[Wes]

ellenater: How long have you know Mark Driscoll personally?

You know I think the world would such a better place if everyone would just agree with you all – of course if one of you disagrees than who would be right? hmmm.

anywho blast away!

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[Wes]

Job it seems to me they were all just disagreeing with you disagreeing with them. I am sure you would not have gotten hurt. I think it’s ok if we disagree with you, don’t you. You know reading your post it would seem that kettle is telling the pot that it’s black? Or do you dare disagree?

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[ellenater]

texas, I agree completely. Until these leaders/groups actually practice true compassion, they are doing more damage than good.

Wes, I don’t know Driscoll personally. Just my assessment. But I do feel pretty strongly about it, obviously!

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[JoB]

wes..

When two men walk up to a woman and step into her personal space with their hands on their belts and and their feet spread apart in the military stance and make demands instead of asking questions, they are being aggressive and threatening. They are probably being aggressive and threatening even if the person they approach in that manner is a man.

I felt threatened… and since they didn’t turn and leave until my 6″4″ husband loudly asked what was going on and started striding towards us… I probably had reason.

They left quickly once they found they were observed and that i had help…

The other men putting handouts on cars that day had similar encounters with the Mars Hill security.

We distributed a pamphlet that offered alternatives from a christian perspective to spanking for discipline… but that did not stop the security from Mars Hill Church following behind us and removing pamphlets.

God forbid that any member of their flock should read scripture.

I describe myself as a nice little old woman and that is probably pretty accurate. I move slowly and i was speaking softly. I was not in any way confrontational.

So why do you think they were? And why would any church have security who would approach any person in less than a polite and helpful manner?

And while i am at it, why would any church warn members that there was someone outside the church who was trying to shake their faith?

because several people leaving that church told me they knew who i was and that i was not going to shake their faith… in the same exact words.

So… aside from threatening emails i received from members of the Mars Hill church after i posted my personal email and the ugly remarks from more than one person leaving the church and the actions of the church security.. it would be easy to dismiss me as an over-reacting or angry person.

I am neither, but it would be good to ponder just what could possibly have been so threatening about a little old lady politely offering pamphlets that quoted scripture to offer alternative views on spanking children?

I really would love to hear your answer to that question.

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[Walker]

Mars Hill = American Taliban.

Women in there place.

Death to queers. (or at least eternal hell fire)

books are bad

Music is worse

I find it foul that they are aloud to brainwash people in our community. Before you even start on the “freedom of religion” BS, I would like to point out that I would like to be free from religion. How long would an Imam be allowed to preach the same philosophies in this area?

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[bluebird]

Why do any of us have to know Mark? His trash talk is all over the internet, in sermons, blogs, books, interviews. We know what he believes and promotes. It’s offensive.

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[JoB]

Walker..

religion of itself does more good than harm. extremism is the problem.

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[bluebird]

I would have to disagree with that JoB. Take the premise that you are born bad and will spend the rest of life continuing to do bad things.

Walk in to any jail and you can see the effects of that kind of parenting. Now extrapolate on a world wide level. That’s an awful lot of self hatred and doubt walking around.

Yes there is an out clause. You can suck up to the sky fairy, but the damage to the psyche is done and the premise of evil is self fulfilling.

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[Walker]

Mars hill is an extremist organization.

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[HMC Rich]

I am with JoB. The message is good but not perfect. Why anti Mars Hill people pay so much attention to this pastor is beyond me, but what ever floats your boat. You are free to love, hate or be indifferent.

Walker, You are not serious are you? Are they bombing abortion clinics? Are they flying planes into buildings? Are they strapping bombs on themselves and then martyring themselves? Are they drinking Koolaid? Are they raping children? If they are, I will be right next to you protesting them. Care to revise your statement?

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[bluebird]

That statement is kind of extreme in and of itself. Authoritarian preachers and churches breed absolute behavior.

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[JoB]

bluebird…

“Take the premise that you are born bad and will spend the rest of life continuing to do bad things.”

To me, this is one of those examples of limited thinking.

the new testament would have us all being born good… and having to choose sin… and even then being continually offered redemption.

To me, that is the baseline of the christian message.. full of hope.. full of possibility..

I think it is sinful that too many churches teach original sin as though it was the only message in the bible…

HMCRich…

If some of the emails i received when i protested the spank your child regularly with love message are any indication, this church advocates abusive practices and punishes dissent of any kind.

Do they bomb abortion clinics? Would they strap a bomb onto themselves and choose martyrdom? Would they drink the kool-aid? I don’t know. I have been close enough to cults in my life to tell you that some of the messages i received make me suspicious that they at least verge on cult behavior… and with cult behavior all of those things are possible.

As for that child rape thing.. i suspect that might depend on how old you think a girl child should be before her parents or her church choose her husband for her.. and whether you think wives are a commodity to be earned… I am not sure how far members of that church carry some of those old school ideas that are preached.. but i think the general practice of marrying girls off is abusive at best and possibly child rape at worst… and because of some of the materials i have read, i believe this church advocates that practice.

I do believe they have a right to worship any way they choose.. but i also believe there is a huge difference between disagreeing with dissenting opinions and trying to silence them… and that is one of the signs that a religion may have strayed too far into extremism.

Calling it religion does not excuse abuse or make extremism ok.

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[HMC Rich]

JoB, I like Blue Oyster Cult but they were not very extreme. Don’t Fear The Reaper!!! I was a follower but it wasn’t a religious choice.

I will ask two friends of mine who attend this church about your suspicions. It will be interesting to hear what they say.

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[Walker]

HMCRich: Who are they? Which “they” are you referring to? Driscoll? People like Driscoll don’t blow themselves up. There is no money in that. Instead they add to the general pool of babble that liberals, fags, abortion doctors, etc are what is standing in the way of ‘Mercia being the god filled nation that it could be. Then other men, most of the time poor, and uneducated, bomb an abortion clinic, beat their wives and children, fly planes into buildings, after they have heard enough of the collective babble telling them it is the right thing to do. That is what Driscoll is creating.

Right Wing Christians, which is what MH is a haven for, have done the majority of terrorists acts in this country. OK City, 1996 Olympics bombing, and 6170 acts of violence on abortion clinics and their employees since 1977. (that last part is from here http://www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/about_abortion/violence_stats.pdf )

There are different levels and examples of extremism. Fred Phelps has never blown anything up that I know of, but he is an extremist. At best, Driscoll is just a huckster, out to milk as much cash from as many people as possible. He is doing a pretty good job of that so far. At worst, he is adding to the levels of fear and hate that extremists religions are creating. He is creating the people that will force creationism into science classes, abortion clinics to close out of fear, prevent same sex couples from marrying, take books out of libraries that they think you shouldn’t read, he is creating people that will tell your daughters they are the property of their husbands, and yes he is part of the general air that is creating the next Timothy McVeigh. He is creating the exact same crap that we felt was necessary to sacrifice 1381 lives in Afghanistan to stop the Taliban from doing.

So, no, I do not want to revise my statement. Try your intellectual bully crap on someone else.

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[JoB]

Walker..

well put..

but most conservatives think we are the ones with the intellectual bully crap :-<

HMCRich…

do you really think friends of yours would number in those who would respond in ignorance to the extremism of some of those messages?

It’s not likely, though i was astounded one day to hear the conservative religious views that had developed in close friends after joining one of the extremist churches. That kind of rhetoric sounds so much more palatable when it is wrapped in scripture… and that is all you are hearing.

it’s like homophobia. the queer jokes seem pretty funny and harmless until you see the anger and hate they foster directed at real people.. then they aren’t quite so funny.

or.. in my case the jokes about fibromyalgia that are circulating locally… the challenges of the illness are pretty funny.. but making fun of people in pain.. not so funny.

You have to step outside the environment to realize that the joke has gone too far.

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[cclarue]

There is scripture in the bible that says wives should submit to their husbands. But the bible also says men must submit to god. the bible gives instruction to men to cherish their wives and to LOVE them. nowhere does it say treat them as second class citizens. it says honor them. look around our predominatley secular world women, and ask yourselves how are men treating women today? in a bible based home the men should put their wives and families first before job power money etc. now i am fully aware that not all christian homes reflect this but that is how it is written in the bible to be. i wonder how much of the bible everyone who is throwing mark under the bus has read? i do not attend his church but there are many more things we should be rallying against collectively rather than someones church we dont attend and by the way what about the muslim and islaamic churches around who are teaching hatred of americans? thats ok but ooh get mark driscoll he wants people to follow Jesus. I also have read the ted tripp book and it is not the ugly beat your child monster book that lots of people her made it out to be. personally if more parents actually paid attention to their children and practiced some discipline i think we would have a whole lot less crime and gang involvment. Bit thats a whole different topic.

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[andrea]

i think Walker said it best…you would not find Jesus associating with the likes of the Mark Dricoll’s, Pat Robertson’s, or the Joel Osteen’s of the world if he were here today…you would find him among the meek, the humble, the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised, the outcasts…so basically, the very people that these evangelists and their churches shun and potificate against. All of their money, their ego, and authority… the exact opposite of the life Jesus led.

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[maplesyrup]

“…man is totally depraved and of himself utterly unable to remedy his lost condition”

http://www.marshillchurch.org/about/what-we-believe

So the church leads you to believe that you are inherently bad so that they can come in and save you. They create a false need for the weak-minded. S.O.P. for cults.

And I think calling him a “W.S.” pastor is a bit misleading. Mars Hill has 10 “campuses”, only one of which is in West Seattle. That’s almost like calling Safeway a West Seattle business.

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[Walker]

by the way what about the muslim and islaamic churches around who are teaching hatred of americans?

Name one. Just one. Name a single Imam or Mosque that is preaching that in this area. Thanks for our daily dose of Xenophobia.

Here are some of the things that the bible teaches us about Women and Children.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21: ‘If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the

voice of his father or his mother even when they punish him his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.’

1st Corinthians 14: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Exoduse [21:7-8] “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.”

“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

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[JoB]

cclarue..

mark does teach hatred of Americans… Americans who don’t follow his particular teaching.

i think that is one reason that some of us have such a strong reaction to him.

His teaching would never have come to my attention if it hadn’t been for the the Ted Tripp seminars here in West Seattle… but it did and as i read his own publications and spoke with people who live near the church and with some members, i have become far more concerned about the Mars Hill church and Mark Driscoll than i was when this issue surfaced.

You may not remember, but the original post that brought this seminar to our attention came from a member of the Mars Hill church who was afraid to speak out without anonymity.

In the course of protesting that seminar, i too read Ted Tripp’s book and there is a great deal of good parenting advice in it… however he does come out strongly for regular corporal punishment as a preventative measure against poor behavior… spanking to instill the fear of god:(

While i agree that there would be a lot less crime and gang involvement if people disciplined their children… i believe there are a lot more effective ways to discipline children besides regular spanking…

if you have to resort to hitting to discipline your children they are more likely to resort to hitting as a solution to life’s frustrations.

There is really good Christian literature on child discipline that makes a excellent case for never hitting a child.

And yes, the christian covenant in marriage is a covenant of mutual respect between husband and wife with what were once strictly segregated responsibilities. It is sad that so many churches pervert that covenant into a male dominance model totally ignoring the fact that many women now contribute financially to their families and assume the burden of responsibilities far beyond their historical roles. That perversion is not mutually respectful.

What bothers me most is the either or mentality of so many who call themselves Christians these days… especially those who use Christianity as a political rallying cry.

You are with us.. you condone anything anyone who labels themselves christian does.. or you are against us.

either you have read your bible and agree with my narrow interpretation or you have not read the bible.

if the church isn’t christian it is teaching hatred of Americans.

if you don’t spank your kids, you don’t discipline them.

I could go on and on but i am sure you get the idea.

You and I might sit down and have an incredibly moving conversation exploring how our own christian faith has enriched our lives and those of our community…

But we are unlikely to see eye to eye when it comes to more practical matters relating to church function. Does that make me any less christian or patriotic than you?

Probably not… but you will never know what is in the hearts of others as long as buy the idea that they are somehow different.. less than yourself… as long as you label their concerns about how some churches practice their faith as being anti-christian.

I really don’t respect Mark Driscoll or his teachings. I think they give Christianity a bad name. But.. you won’t find me christian bashing…

not even when my grandkids told me how sad they were that i wouldn’t get into heaven because i didn’t belong to their church. I simply expressed my sorrow that they felt that way and told them i felt differently.

There is too much hate preached in the name of Christianity… and somehow i don’t think that is consistent with the message of the New Testament.

The fear of god was tempered by god’s love in the New Testament and that Testament is what defines us as Christian.

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[cclarue]

Maple I think things taken out of context are just that taken out of context. We are sinners periond we are born of a sinful nature but we are forgiven because god sent his son to die for our sins. I am a christian. But i am not here to call anyone else out for what they believe. I dont want to push my beliefs on anyone. I just know that when we do not believe something we look first for the fault in it. which is what i feel is going on here. JoB, I think we agree more than you may think. I am not of the my way or the highway camp. I never have been. My pastor teaches us to walk very carefully in the middle not too far right and not too far left. It is not all black or white. Child abuse is something different than an ocasional spanking or discipline. I have spanked my children a couple of times out of anger and that is wrong. I have also been so pissed off at my daughter and took a few deep breaths and taken her to another room and had a talk with her with patience involved, and had a great outcome. That being said i cringe when i am out in public and see children acting so out of control and their moms in a real syrupy voice oh johnny please dont hit kimmie or please dont whatever and the kid knows full well that it means nothing. And i dont have all the answers but i think it is somewhere in between the two. An ocasional spank not given out of anger … may just be what some kids need. Now my older daughter all i need to do is raise my voice and she is responding. I only remember spanking her once when she was about two and ran off down the driveway almost to the street before i could catch her. But there is an entire generation out there who wont raise thier voice or spank their kids and now we have talks on the forums about kids in restaurants and their bad behavior. When i was a kid and we went out it wasnt even an issue. We just knew better. and i was only ever spanked twice in my life and i remember both times and you bet your behind i never did either of those two things again. But as for Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill there are an awful lot of folks who like what he has to say even here in the most unchurched region in the country. And for that matter look at Casey Treat he has two churches and helicopters between them and they pass buckets and sing about giving at offering time. At mars hill they dont pass a bucket or a plate for offering. If you choose to tithe there is a box in the back and you can do it there. There is no one putting you on front street so to speak if you dont have an offering that day. So he cant be too money hungry if he doesnt even take a formal offering. In fact at my churh we have a separate accounting firm count our offerings so the pastor has no idea whos giving what. Now that impressed me. as for mars hill i am pretty sure seeking jesus is the mission just like at my church. and none of us are perfect and we never will be and thats ok. Jesus took care of that for us who believe. And for those who dont believe i am pretty sure none of them are perfect either. and thats ok. and i would like to retract my earlier statement about muslims, it was not the entire muslim population who flew the planes into the world trade center, just the extremists. just like timothy mcveigh was an extremist.

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[bluebird]

“We are sinners period. We are born of a sinful nature but we are forgiven because god sent his son to die for our sins.”

“I dont want to push my beliefs on anyone.”

Then please stop proselytizing, and speak for yourself. “We” don’t appreciate your name calling. Oops, I meant I don’t.

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[Author]

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