Tonight: W.S. Preaching Pastor Mark on Nightline, ABC – link

[cclarue]

Ken I was waiting for your input! I love it…Gravity. I just picture you on a rooftop with a motorcycle.

Share This

[JoB]

ken..

i share both your belief in gravity and the need to maintain the separation between church and state.

Dobro..

God is a guy with a long white beard? really?

I thought she was a woman with a long white braid and blue eyes and those papists who edited the books of the bible to those we now read changed all the shes to he ;-)

but seriously.. i guess i wasn’t clear in making my statement about understanding the universe in context…

what i meant is that since historically most civilizations seem to have pretty much universally interpreted the universe in a religious context that includes god or gods.. perhaps we are hardwired to do so.

There is some functional MRI evidence that seems to support that theory.. but for the life of me i can’t remember where it is and am too compelled by the sunshine today to go search for it.

I am with CClarue… i think there is a celestial gardener up there :))) and i want to be outside enjoying their creation

Share This

[cclarue]

Dobro, Someone sitting on a cloud with a magic wand is a fairy tale. which you believe the bible is. I do not belive it to be a fairy tale but yes I believe we are gods creation but i do not know exactly what percent was god and what percent wasnt god. i think there is some evolution involved but nothing like we come from apes. I believe we are and always have been humans. I also have lived with and without Christ in my life and I much prefer the with. I get that it is not easy for people comprhend Jesus or christianity. I have asked many many questions to get where i am at and i had to seek out people i respected as intelligent people to get where i am at also, because so much of it does not sound logical. I also have a pastor who lived a secular life whose parents do not believe and to this day his father thinks he is crazy. So he gets it an keeps reality very much apart of his sermons. I know there are many christians in the world making christianity very unattractive. I do not subscribe to their rhetoric either. Standing on a corner shoving and anti abortion sign at every car that drives by in the name of Jesus is ridiculous to me and makes me want to get out and try to make him stop making the rest of us look bad!! Just like any group of people there are many differences within.

Share This

[dobro]

“…I get that it is not easy for people comprhend Jesus or christianity.”

thanks for your understanding, but actually I have no trouble comprehending Jesus (a historical figure who may or may not have existed but has been exalted in literature) or christianity (a cult that began many centuries ago and has been the source of much of the most savage behavior of mankind as well as some kindnesses).

The thing I have a hard time comprehending is why people are willing to censure, criticize, and, in many cases, kill other humans who don’t believe the same fairy tales. Can anyone explain that one?

Share This

[cclarue]

Dobro I have not censured, criticized or killed you or anyone else. There are christians all through history who have been killed because they refused to deny Jesus. It goes both ways. And neither are right. And for the record Snow White and the seven dwarfs is a fairy tale. Bambi is a fairy tale, Jack and the beanstalk is a fairy tale. When you call my beliefs fairy tales it feels like criticism……hmm

Share This

[dobro]

None of what I say is meant as personal criticism of anyone participating in this discussion.It’s hard in these kinds of internet forums to voice an opinion and express the proper tone sometimes. Everyone has a right to believe in any kind of fairy tale they want and I don’t accuse anyone personally here of censuring, criticizing or killing anyone.

I do, however, think that the Christian cult has been responsible for many of the most savage episodes in our history and has much to answer for in that regard. And I think that the idea of a human being rising from the dead is as much a fairy tale as Jack and the Beanstalk. I don’t think anyone can cite any provable instances of this in human history.

Share This

[bluebird]

K, so calling christianity (a belief system based on a story book) a fairy tale is criticism, yet calling all of us (actual live persons) sinners, is just a fact that needs to be accepted?

Share This

[JoB]

dobro..

There has been much evil done in the world in the name of many things… including but not exclusive to Christianity…

how about capitalism. now there is a cult that is pure fairy tale… and does a lot of harm in the name of good.

you may have difficulty understanding why anyone would choose to believe..

but that still doesn’t make those of us who do responsible for those who pervert religion for their own purposes.

that would make as much sense as me holding you personally responsible for the perversion of capitalism because you buy into the system… or me… because we are not self sustaining either.

i hold the frat boys and sorority girls who were too lazy to get a degree in anything that would interfere with their drinking and settled for a business degree…

they believed anything they are told, didn’t understand what they were doing and were too vain to ask :((((( or maybe i should blame those who manipulated them.. or both.

what a cluster f…

i hold those who have used Christianity as a justification for pursuing their own agenda responsible for their own perfidity…

another cluster f… of gigantic and unfortunately political proportions.

Share This

[JoB]

bluebird…

if you don’t believe in Christianity then you don’t believe that the concept of original sin pertains to you…

so what does it matter if cclarue does?

she can’t consign you to an eternal state of sin… that takes a personal commitment that i am pretty sure you are not willing to make.

If you do believe, then you get to choose what to believe… so it would still take a personal commitment.

I was told that drinking beer would grow hair on my chest when i was little. i drank beer and so far the only hair is on my chin ;(

I suspect it has nothing to do with drinking beer.

However.. the two fairies perched on the lamp beside my computer might have something to do with my belief in fairy tales ;-)

Share This

[bluebird]

It matters because there is an undue expectation of respect for one position, and not the other.

I don’t take any of it personally. It’s all ridiculous to me and for the most part, has no effect on my life.

This is a philosophical discussion on the myth of modern christian persecution. The christian taking the point of view that because a belief (not a person) is challenged, they are being somehow prejudiced.

There is no such responsibility on their part, for what they label and accuse people (as opposed to a lack of belief system) of being.

Share This

[datamuse]

Thanks for the book recommendation, WSD. It sounds like something I’d enjoy.

Mythology is one of my favorite objects of study (if I ever pursue a doctorate it’ll be part of the equation, though I’m still figuring out what I care about enough to sweat that much over). Jung isn’t my favorite interpretive context but he definitely did a lot for those of us who like to think about this stuff.

I don’t have much to add to the rest of this discussion except that I’ve always found Driscoll creepy, in a self-aggrandizing sort of way. Religious figures are a bit like prophets; they need authenticity to have authority, and he hasn’t persuaded me of his.

Though it doesn’t matter much to me personally as I haven’t been a Christian for over 20 years.

Share This

[Ken]

i think there is some evolution involved but nothing like we come from apes

Your misunderstanding of evolution and its fundamental underpinning of science is astounding.

Is this a belief system based on scripture or just the inability to understand the 8th grade level science?

As long as this is just a belief you pass on to your progeny in the privacy of your own home church or private school, that is your business.

If you advocate the subversion of public education to include any explanation that is not based on evidence, then you become part of the problem.

Are you interested in some links that explain the evidence?

The advances of science supporting evolution still have not impinged on matters of faith as even the Catholic church agrees.

As a matter of fact, there is far more evidence, approaching overwhelming, supporting the theory of evolution than there is supporting various theories of Gravity. Much of the evidence supporting both theories are all around us every day.

Science and evolution are frameworks used to coherently describe the observable and experimental data of the natural world. They are not “belief” systems.

If you want to think a literal reading of the bible requires you reject evolution, perhaps you should also reject all medical procedures based on that same framework.

Like the flu vaccine.

http://www.clinicalcorrelations.org/?p=1670

Share This

[cclarue]

BB, an undue expectation of respect to whom? I will retract the we are all sinners comment and change it to “I believe we are all sinners because in the bible it says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory god” which yes i believe if you dont then it does not pertain to you. And if you believe the bible to be a book of fairytales and sin is a biblical term how can you make it about you? You dont believe it any more than i believe there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. heres the thing if you or anyone wishes to criticize me or my beliefs i dont care i am fully aware that my position is the unpopular one here and i am ok with that and coming to the defense of my beliefs is something that is not new to me and it does not bother me. i only mentioned that what dobro said sounded like criticism because heshe said christians are guilty of criticism. Which hello arent we all at some point guilty of some form of criticism? I do not even consider myself religious. Religion can be very dangerous. I am a christian who seeks the face of jesus. Many christians only seek his hand meaning help when its convenient for them. I dont presume you will understand this but it is my stance just for the record.

Share This

[cclarue]

Ken, I always appreciate your posts you give real information and i tend to take much of your iformation as fact. I believe there are too many holes in the evolution theory to accept it all as fact. I would gladly read any links you send me. Thanks for the offer. (Maybe its my sinful ego that prevents me from believing i could have apes as ancestors. lol.. that was just a joke to lighten things up .)

Share This

[dobro]

“… what dobro said sounded like criticism because heshe said christians are guilty of criticism.”

One great thing about internet chats is that everything is written down so you can easily see what was really said. Here’s what I really said…

“…The thing I have a hard time comprehending is why people are willing to censure, criticize, and, in many cases, kill other humans who don’t believe the same fairy tales.”

You’ll notice I didn’t say Christians. There are several other cults of organized religionists that are equally evil, violent, and intolerant but have their own set of fairy tales.

I have no problem with people believing anything they want. I do have a problem with those who want to force their beliefs on others. And the excuses that “not all Christianists do it” and “its not me” don’t hold up well either. If your’re a member of the cult and you have rogue elements it’s your responsibility to police them, no one elses’.

Share This

[Walker]

I am just curoius. What are the ” many holes in the evolution theory to accept it all as fact.”?

Share This

[JoB]

Dobroe..

there’s the rub. i am not a member of the cult and wouldn’t belong to any church that exhibited features of a cult… yet i still consider myself a christian.

Ken..

actually the newest science is a skeleton.. or parts of a skeleton that predate Lucy and seem to predate chimps… the humans from apes theory may in fact be wrong….

so you could believe in evolution but not that we descended from apes and you might be right.

which doesn’t mean that evolution is wrong.. or that science is wrong.. just that we are still learning.

it is likely that the creature whose skeleton they found would have more in common with apes than modern man.

i think it is too easy to trigger on words or phrases and read into them more than was intended..

for me.. that’s what makes it difficult to speak about faith. No matter how carefully you try to express yourself you are weighed down with the accumulation of reactions to the words and phrases of faith that have been appropriated for personal or political gain and to the accumulated resentment for perceived expectations of undue respect.

I realize that those perceptions have been created by people who call themselves Christians..

but in my opinion, they are not people who live as Christians…

Share This

[cclarue]

Well said Jo.Thank you.

Share This

[Ken]

Here is the actual info on the recently announced discovery. Note it is quite different from the flagrant BS used by the AP and NYT headline writers. Many of the pronouncements in the news article give no hint of the contentious multiple interpretations argued by the scientist involved in the last 15 years since the actual discovery.

I have no problem with the scientist involved planning this massive PR simultaneous release of papers, but the major news outlets understand the science has to be dumbed down severely or most of their readers will click over to Hollywood “news”.

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/ardipithecus/ardipithecus-faq-2009.html

AP now writes different versions of many of their news wire releases and gives editing tips so that right leaning papers and other media can shift the focus of a story to fit their audience. This usually lets the headline writers tweak the headline to grab attention.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_sc/us_sci_before_lucy_2

While this first link and the news stories differ, nothing pokes any holes in the basic theory of evolution.

We still evolved from an ancestor that had feet optimized for grasping just like the current ape family of primates. It is not exactly like the modern apes so there is lots of disputes about what this means. It is just about a million years before that next most recent finds in the

australopithecine group.

Read the details if you will and perhaps note that people ordinarily cannot imaging how many of anything is a million, whether dollars or years.

Share This

[JoB]

Ken..

i didn’t even imply that this finding pokes holes in evolution… as you may have noted, i pointed out that this early “man” had more in common with apes than with man…

What i said is that there is much we don’t yet know.. and this finding may well poke holes in the theory of ape as man’s evolutionary ancestor… it appears we may have more to learn before making pronouncements.

more to the point, i have never thought belief in Christianity and a respect for science were contradictory… nor have many of our most revered scientists.

There is only a small segment of the Christian population that are Bible literalists.. counting 24 hour days for creation and 6000 years for the existence of man… and lobbying for creationism not evolutionary theory in schools…

yet when Christian belief is mentioned that minority is pulled out and dangled in front of us like theirs was the only story told.

I admit, they have been a very vocal minority and they were.. and still are… backed to the hilt politically by a segment of the Republican party and by the mainstream press… but they are still a minority.

They.. and preachers like Mark… are the reason i finally decided to be public about my faith… to open an opportunity for other people of faith to speak out about the misperceptions of that vocal minority that have become more important than the majority whose faith has a positive impact on their communities.

It never occurred to me that i would have to defend my faith as zealously from the distortions of the left as from those of the right…

There are a lot of Christians for whom there is no choice between science and faith because they see no contradiction … for whom faith trumps the details that derail literalists from both sides of the fence… the ability to see the contradictions and still believe is the essence of faith.

I feel no real or imagined persecution… but i can see that those who impale all Christians at the point of the extremist literal fringe are ignoring the many diverse Christian voices appalled by the excesses perpetrated in the name of Christianity… and are ignoring the Christian coalition that has been.. in my lifetime… a major component of the backbone of the democratic party and a strong supporter of liberal agendas.

I will eagerly join in denunciation of extremist Christian views. I agree completely with the need for separation of church and state.

On a personal level, I believe that any faith or belief system has merit for those who believe… and further i don’t believe that my faith is superior for anyone excepting myself and those who make the choice for Christianity. I am not holier than thou.. or more righteuos.. or…

but i draw the line at being tarred with the brush of extremists… being held responsible for their words and actions as though they were my own… and having the scripture from what i think of as my bible used as a political weapon from either side.

You are preaching to the choir and some of us are Christians.

Share This

[Hoff-animal]

Dobro…I think you are on the right track. Job…not so much.

Share This

[Ken]

JOB:

I did not consider you as the target audience for my last … epistle. :)

I was hoping for a wider one which included those who only read the headlines as well as those who have evolved the extremely hard heads of the Gopasaurus rectocranius.

I hoped the link was of interest to you though.

I consider Dr Hawks to be the missing link between academics who could put insomniacs to sleep professionally, and the Science-journalist who try to punch up the conclusions to grab their audience and gloss over important data because it involves Latin words.

He cuts through the bs and the sonomulance with equal ease.

Share This

[cclarue]

For everyone here who thinks all christians are extreme right wing zealots, take a look at the new topic WEST SEATTLE CLERGY Support REF 71 !!!!

Share This

[JoB]

Hoff-animal..

Jeez.. you sure know how to rain on my parade..

as an citizen i am sure you are as responsible for the bad decisions made in the name of of the United States of America.. the poor choices and bullying political tactics that have given us a worldwide black eye that is only now beginning to fade.. as i am for the over zealous self promotion of some Christian realists.

I just said no to both… fat lot of good it did me:(

Share This

[JoB]

Ken,

the link was of interest to me.. as a sweet young thing i thought i might become an anthropologist and have never lost my interest in all things ancient.. then i thought i might become a nuclear scientist and have never lost my interest in all things scientific.. studied accounting so i wouldn’t have to become a bookkeeper like my mom and discovered sociology and philosophy along the way :)))

i am not sure there is anything i am not insanely curious about except perhaps sports.. and even then i go weak in the knees for rugby and gymnastics and skating and…

I really can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t be fascinated by the journey scientific thought has taken in the last few decades… we know so much and are just beginning to figure out how little.

Share This

[Author]

Posts