The issue of gun control

[Jd seattle]

Well after reading about this story it’s not even true to begin with. Attendees are allowed to carry their defense weapons as long as they follow all applicable laws. Yes the display guns are inoperable, but that was something started by the gun manufacturers long ago.

http://bearingarms.com/nra-isnt-banning-carry-guns-convention/

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[JoB]

Jd..

“I’m not sure how women and elderly came into this discussion either. But it seems you just can’t help yourself. Now I’m silencing and harassing women and elderly I suppose.”

i don’t know. do you?

if the way you responded to this student’s attempt at publishing their ideas and my resulting call for civility is any indication, it’s likely the habit of dismissing arguments as being beneath your notice if they aren’t framed the way you think they should be is likely pretty ingrained.

that’s something worth pondering.

you might think i mention this to single you out. Not so… you just happen to be the person that spoke up.

this kind of dismissive attitude has become such an accepted part of our public conversations that it is simply taken for granted..

if you can’t take the heat in the kitchen.. get out.

I could go a lot of ways with this… but the bottom line is that this kind of attitude is extremely self limiting.

if we dismiss other people’s attempts at building arguments as not worth taking seriously.. we miss the opportunity to challenge not only the opinions held by others but our own.

I know not every person wants to live a self-examined life… i often wish i didn’t… it’s painful for me to constantly question why i think and feel the way i do and to respond to the inevitable self criticism… followed by the criticism of my peers who didn’t want to think about that any more than i did and wish i would just shut the f… up…

but when you silence the voices of those around you by making snap judgements on what you think they are going to say or what they meant based on what you consider misinformation and rhetoric you not only lose the opportunity to learn new information..

you lose the opportunity to teach… thus rendering yourself mute.

ouch.

civility fosters conversation..

and conversation changes our world.

thus spake the little old lady who spends far too much of her time thinking about how to make this world a little healthier and more productive for the two legged beasts that live in it

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[Smitty]

“I’m not sure how women and elderly came into this discussion either. But it seems you just can’t help yourself. Now I’m silencing and harassing women and elderly I suppose.”

i don’t know. do you?”

Is that an answer to how the women and elderly came up?

I’m confused.

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[JoB]

smitty…

do you really want to play the snark/marginalization/redirection game with me?

i imagine the concept of extending civility towards marginalized groups can be confusing to those who can’t see how they would benefit.

:-)

have a really nice day. i am headed towards the garden…

redirecting my attention from those troublesome tax papers that need to be sorted ;-)

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – you make a lot of assumptions based off of my one sentence reply. I’m sorry though, I reserve my right to state information is so inaccurate I am not going to take the time to rebut. If that offends you, I’m sorry.

You can continue on acting as the ambassador of internet civility and voice encouraging everyone’s opinion. It’s a nice change of tune I must say.

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[2 Much Whine]

Settle down you two. Do I have to pull this car over and make you walk home?

–

(For clarification I’m just trying to add some levity to diffuse the back and forth jabs. I am not currently driving and posting as that would be dangerous. I do not condone making people get out of the car and walk home as that could be perceived as abusive. When I say “settle down” I do not mean to imply you should leave your significant others and shack up with each other as I could see that as a very conflicted relationship. That is all)

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[JoB]

2 much whine..

you can’t talk to me like that

i am the mom ;-) ;-)

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[waynster]

Oh my a good old fashion spanking…..wait that just might…no no no….lmfao….

and the real nra assault rifle sportsman….lol

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2015/02/14

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[JoB]

:-)

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[TanDL]

I’m really not a fan of seeing kids slapped around verbally or otherwise, to toughen them up so they can face a harsh and cruel world in as cold a manner as possible. This isn’t doing anything to change the world for the better, only fostering more harshness – cause I guess we don’t have enough callousness to deal with every day. My hackles will absolutely come up when you deal thoughtlessly with kids and I’m embarrassed this young person had to deal with such responses in her own community. Do you have any idea how a lack of sensitivity can affect youngsters? Apparently not! Not once do you have an encouraging word for her attempts to communicate her thoughts and ideas. I hope she is OK.

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[2 Much Whine]

Oh Lord. I do not see one post attacking the person. I see posts suggesting the analysis is flawed and proofreading might be a good idea. Perhaps these cruel posts got deleted as the original one was. I would like to suggest that anyone (regardless of age) shoulld be prepared for some controversial responses if they post about guns, abortions, religion, sports or politics. They might even find themselves in controversy if they post about dogs, cats, birds, poop, new restaurants or merlot). I would like to suggest that if the original person posted and stated that they like puppies or they were doing a fundraiser for a neighbor in need the responses would be more “positive.” If anyone posts about our most controversial subjects isn’t it fair to suggest that they should be prepared for a variety of responses and if they are not able to deal with that they probably shoouldn’t post? It is not like this was posted on the Dora The Explorer fan page.

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[JoB]

2 Much Whine

Why do we think the appropriate response to a post is to hit it with the biggest hammer we can find?

telling someone that their ideas don’t even merit reading and responding to is pretty harsh..

no matter the age or IQ of the poster.

it is one thing to tell someone that you have been “talking” with online about a particular subject for some time that their latest post is a pile of crap

and quite another to do the same to a brand new poster who sticks their toe into the conversational pile.

Add to that that this poster was so obviously a student that the second poster commented on the possibility and at best it’s disrespectful.. at worst it’s a form of intellectual bullying.

worse than that.. it’s ineffective. Pounding your intellectual chest and name calling does little to promote your point of view…

and yes.. i am aware that the name calling was directed at ideas..

but wholesale dismissal of your ideas without ever getting an opportunity to discuss the relevant points is particularly personal and hurtful.

this might technically be within the rules..

but intellectually bullying someone because you can

doesn’t mean that you should.

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[Smitty]

“but intellectually bullying someone because you can

doesn’t mean that you should.”

Plus, it leads to bullying of women and the elderly.

Just sayin’

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – just quit already. Harassing, name calling, chest pounding, intellectual bullying, women, the elderly. Can you please come up with something besides this made up overblown crap? It’s amazing to me that you can sit there and lecture people about internet bullying when you yourself have been openly accused of this very thing by multiple people on this forum. A wee bit of humility can go a long way.

That’s it for me, I’m done on this one. Your made up and inflated accusations are so ridiculous… It’s not worth my time.

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[JoB]

Jd…

i replied to 2 much whine’s post which was in reply to TanDL

i am truly sorry if this topic has legs you wish it would lose… but it does.

as for my bullying… well, no. I am relentless in debunking what i think are poor arguments.. i will give you that. And i am well aware that can be annoying as h… . but a bully? no.

on the other hand i have often been the recipient of both bullying and this particular kind of dismissive reaction … tellingly.. most often when people were unable to actually address the argument i made.

overblown crap doesn’t chase our kids away from the forum. the rude insensitive behavior of adults does.

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[JanS]

topic aside…how we treat one another matters, especially when it comes to 16 year olds who are reaching out. She was shut down before she got a chance to even hear discussion. And I’m willing to bet that it will be a long time before she ever tries to do it again. Way to go guys…be proud of yourselves. “Oh, yeah, she needs to toughen up!”. Bullshit. She needs to be encouraged. None of us are perfect…and hers read like it came from a teenager….that’s because she IS a teenager. Maybe some of us…no names here…need to step back a moment and see the bigger picture.

Rudeness is just that….rude.

All of this adult bickering, etc., does not reflect well on us to outsiders, new people who want to join in, young people who are getting their toes wet in community discussions.

Yep..how proud we all must feel, chasing her away. :(

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[Smitty]

” She needs to be encouraged. None of us are perfect.”

Everybody gets a trophy has NOT done this country well.

“and hers read like it came from a teenager..”

It actually read like many liberal arguments on here – present company excluded – sorry if the truth hurts.

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[JoB]

Smitty…

this is a reasoned argument?

the issue here is respect.

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[miws]

This:

I’m really not a fan of seeing kids slapped around verbally or otherwise, to toughen them up so they can face a harsh and cruel world in as cold a manner as possible. This isn’t doing anything to change the world for the better, only fostering more harshness – cause I guess we don’t have enough callousness to deal with every day.

….and pretty much all of JoB’s Post #37, and Jan’s #41.

I’ve been sitting on my fingers the past few days, very tempted to reply, but didn’t have the time to type up a too much detailed reply, that would likely be too long for what others my care to read.

So, I’ll try to nutshell this.

On the issue of how adults treat young people’s thoughts and ideas:

What is so damn hard about saying “I don’t agree with you…”, and then posting something, hopefully with links to citations, to counter it?

Don’t have the time? Fine. Either don’t bother replying, or at least outright say; “Sorry, don’t have time to look up sources”.

This whole attitude that …”kids need to be toughened up, to face the harsh world”, is indeed BS.

Yes, kids need to know that life will not always be fair and easy; that life/fate/whatever, and people may treat them like CRAP. What they need from parents, and other adults involved in their life, is to have that explained in a thoughtful way; hopefully before an incident occurs, but certainly afterward, if such an event occurs.

I can speak from experience, on how being treated as a kid, can affect a person’s entire life, and their self confidence, and such.

I only came to realize in maybe the last 10-12 years or so, why I had this life long “need” to please everyone, why I so often felt that my thoughts and ideas were “stupid”, why I would feel guilty about something I didn’t do; the entire class being sat down and asked: “Who threw that spitwad”, at work; “Who made that mess in the break room fridge and didn’t clean it up?” I didn’t do those things, but often felt nervous that I’d be directly accused (and that in appearing nervous, would be accused based on that)

The way I came to realize the possible root of these feelings, was that 10 years or so ago, when a lifetime friend of mine, who had been my Mom’s best friend, mentioned how it seemed that in my Mom and Dad’s eyes, I couldn’t do anything right, apparently I was harshly criticized, where my older Brother could get away with all kinds of crap.

I was actually surprised, because I always thought that *I* was the spoiled, overly protected one, based on how my Dad treated my Brother, and myself, after Mom died when I was 8 1/2. Dad put a lot of responsibility for my care; preparing meals, etc, on him, and my Brother is only three years older than I.

I *could* see though, throughout later years of growing up, how being treated by others, especially those that are supposed to guide kids as they grow up, such as my Guardian, whom I lived with from around the ages of 15-19 1/2, (along with her family, including three kids very close to my age), after Dad and Step-Mom had separately died. It seemed like she highly favored her own kids (understandably, seems somewhat natural, but to an extent).

So, in my own case life through no fault of my own as I was growing up, and even throughout adulthood, with much of it no fault of my own, basically taught me that it that it can be harsh at times. I really didn’t need the help of others, many presumably picking up on how easy was to harshly criticize me, without giving a real viable alternative to my thought/idea, because I was so emotionally vulnerable, and they could easily satisfy their own ego.

Thoughtful, constructive criticism, especially (and hopefully) with some thoughtful guidance is fine. Kids, and people in general, especially when it’s a Newbie, is fine. At a minimum, respect. If you want to have a little more heated exchanges, (but staying within the rules), fine, after some mutual relationship is built, so that each party, and other regulars, will have some understanding of exactly where each party is coming from, based on past opinions and exchanges.

Finally, (and this has still gone on way too long); my comments here are not to garner sympathy regarding my life experiences, just to share some thoughts on how what we say to others (and how we say it), especially new people should be considered before we say it.

Sorry if this appears somewhat disjointed, I typed it up while being interrupted by tasks, some of which took me away from the computer for several minutes each.

Mike

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[Jd seattle]

Ok, for those of you explaining what children need in their lives and how to treat them. I assume this is directed at me because most of this discussion has been. You are taking one comment I made prior to knowing age, sex, race, religion, etc. It was a user name to me, I don’t make assumptions about those things based off of a persons writing style. Now that this turned out to be a student, I am suddenly bullying children and this must be how I treat them in all situations. Talk about making assumptions about people. Would everyone have preferred me to tare through the OP’s post in the usual way that some of you having a problem with this are known to do? Would that student have left feeling heard and accepted as most of you feel she should have? Let’s be real here. If that had been someone posting about how women shouldn’t be allowed to get abortions or gays should not be allowed to marry and it was full of completely unfounded statistics, I’m sure everyone would be totally polite and accepting of their thoughts. It’s easy to come along after all the information has come out and tell everyone how you would have known it was a student and how it would have been handled had it been you. But for some of you, based off of your past interactions around here, what you say you would have done is not consistent with what you typically do. As I said before, had I know it was a student I would have approached it differently. But it seems many of you ignore that statement and won’t miss a chance to jump all over someone.

I also agree children need love, support and encouragement to voice their views. But if the OP was 16 as JanS states, they are fully capable of understanding there are people that don’t share their views and it will be expressed in a multitude of ways. Preparing kids and “toughening them up to face a cold hard reality” are two completely different things. I understand twisting my words makes for a better argument, but it’s not what I said.

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[JoB]

Jd..

this discussion is directed at how we treat others..

you just happened to be the example this time

but you aren’t the only person on the bandwagon

the point is this..

you can respectfully disagree with someone without demeaning them or tearing them a new a…hole. There is middle ground.

and .. there is a huge difference between appropriate responses to the people with whom we have been having regular conversation on a subject and how we speak to someone who happens to step into the room for the first time, regardless of their age or gender.

if your reaction to this discussion is to take it personally, imagine what the reaction of a newcomer is to being dismissed as not worthy of consideration.

just saying.. worth thinking about next time a stranger steps into the room.

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[Jd seattle]

Job- I also dont click on every user name that pops up and check to see if it is their first visit, maybe I should. I didn’t relise that it was ok to be disrespectful only after they have properly been welcomed. Because we have all been acquainted it’s ok to infer that i am guilty of; “I’m really not a fan of seeing kids slapped around verbally or otherwise, to toughen them up so they can face a harsh and cruel world in as cold a manner as possible.” or this ” I don’t think we should be teaching women that either… or the elderly.” If you want to talk strictly about courtesy to all who post, I’m listening and will re evaluate my interactions. But the second you start accusing me of singling out certain groups or kids, ya I’m going to take it personally. So if you want me to take you seriously, let’s stop trying to make me out to be something I’m not.

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[JanS]

my take away from this…you want respect? give respect…something we..and I do mean WE, me included, need to remember..

thanks…have a great weekend…moving on

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[WSB]

I haven’t checked back on this since noticing that the OP had not included an explanation that this was a school project, and therefore adding that info. We go to the forum dashboard every so often to kill obvious spam posts and that’s about it unless someone flags us on something – which they just have, on this.

The original post was deleted by the post’er, who also changed their handle, actually, edited to remove the content. Nothing else here has been changed/deleted unless a member has done it themselves. (I mention that since somebody asked the question upthread.)

However, the person who has contacted me says that this was posted without the knowledge of the student’s family and requests that we remove references to the student’s name. I see four spots to which that would apply and will be replacing with the pseudonym the student subsequently chose (and an asterisk).

Also, we have been asked to close the thread. Given that the OP chose to delete the post entirely, I would have grounds to just kill the entire topic/thread, but the subsequent discussion of online bullying/belittling is quite relevant, sadly, these days. And maybe the student contributor will be able to use this as part of the eventual report … don’t know.

So this is closed, and amended only as described above. Thanks. – Tracy

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