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April 11, 2011 at 9:02 am #721564
dawsonctParticipantI feel fora such as this one is our modern Platonic academy, a meeting of individuals of varying degrees of expertise and differing opinions. These discussions are, in fact, an integral part of our civic growth.
Some people are rabble, some are rousers. We are a species of specialists.
April 11, 2011 at 12:35 pm #721565
KenParticipantApril 11, 2011 at 12:44 pm #721566
redblackParticipantcasaboba: i’ll echo what jo said: the founding fathers said that freedom of the press was crucial to an informed electorate. when people get their information solely from sources that have political and economic axes to grind – like WSJ and msnbc – we have problems.
you’re right, though. there is some apathy and a spirit of defeatism around elections, especially among the working poor. (bound to happen in a big, diverse country that is represented largely by rich, old, conservative white christian men, though, huh?) how about giving them the day off in order to vote? making election day a national holiday?
as dawson and i were discussing, our 200-year-old electroal system needs serious modernization, so that our elections and our government are more flexible, reflexive, and accountable.
April 11, 2011 at 3:47 pm #721567
JoBParticipantcasaboba…
i don’t mean to be rude…
but just what do you think many of us who have who spend our time “pontificating” on this blog have been up to in our spare time?
I can’t speak for any of the other “pontificators” …
but i have participated in voter drives for 16+ presidential elections…
I am not going to count them up.. but i started working on voter drives long before i could vote
not to mention the time spent on the street for those “unimportant” mid-term elections…
and those local elections that don’t even catch the attention of the locals.
i didn’t participate in the voter’s drive for the last one..
i was too sick.
but in spite of my illness
i was one of my precincts local delegates.
it’s a mistake
to assume we “pontificators” have been sitting on our thumbs
I recently attended a talk given by a couple of the “radicals” of my youth..
a couple who are still organizing and advocating in spite of 40+ years of discouragement…
who spoke to a room mostly full of other people
and their kids and grandkids
who were still organizing and advocating in spite of the frustrations of 40+ years of trying to convince the young whippersnappers around them to take the earphones out of their ears and pay attention to anything not totally self serving…
even when they weren’t much older than the young whippersnappers they were trying to reach
their message?
after all this time they have come to the conclusion that speaking out is the most radical act any citizen can do.
the irony of all of this is that i spent an evening and attracted the interest of my local FBI arguing exactly that point with the man who preached it to that crowd 40 years later.
talking makes people think
and when they think they tend to talk to other people
and if enough people start talking
public perception shifts…
citizens speaking up
is the only known antidote to a less than free press…
you are going to have to excuse my old fart pontification here …
but you comment points out
that that one lesson hasn’t been learned yet..
the usefulness of forums like this one
can’t be underestimated…
if they have no other value than getting people from different generations talking and sharing ideas…
they will make a difference..
there really is something to experience you know.
it’s not everything…
but it helps to have “old eyes” looking at new ideas…
some of us have been there and done that
and we took away more from the experience than a t-shirt.
I know, I was there
even the stoners weren’t stoned all of the time ;)
April 11, 2011 at 3:48 pm #721568
JoBParticipantApril 11, 2011 at 4:42 pm #721569
casabobaMember“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.” ~Author Unknown
April 11, 2011 at 6:58 pm #721570
dawsonctParticipantAwfully sweeping indictment casa. True in some cases, not in others. Most of the people who represent us in government are doing so at some financial cost to themselves. Despite what the Koch Bros, Richard Mellon-Scaife, and the rest of the oligarchs of the Republican Party would have you believe, working for OUR government isn’t a get-rich-quick scheme. The way to get rich is to make the people who dump the most money into your campaign gets plenty of our tax-dollars, no questions asked.
The ones who get in and get out after they’ve made some valuable connections are doing FAR more to corrupt our government than most of those who stay in it and try to make it work.
—
If we had mandatory term limits, you would end up with a bunch of neophytes who don’t understand the legislative process, being handled by a bunch of industry lobbyists. For example, look at the staffs of all the recent T-bag electees, which are packed with industry shills for the corporations who put them into office.
The best term limits would involve a well informed electorate, deciding whether their elected representative works in THEIR best interests, and having access to information on them and their opponents in order to make the best and most informed decision.
This and election financing reform, so the people candidates are dependent on to finance their campaigns are, in fact, The People. It will allow our representatives to work in OUR best interests, rather than spending all their time raising money from, and keeping happy, sources who don’t necessarily have the best interests of the American people at heart.
April 12, 2011 at 12:11 am #721571
waynsterParticipantDo you all realize that on april 12 1861 the civil war started and they compare these vary same arguments check it out its a good assessment of whats going on now with what went on then…. Overheard on CNN.com: Civil War battles still alive? then click on 4 ways we’re still fighting the Civil War By John Blake, CNN April 11, 2011 9:07 a.m. EDT
April 12, 2011 at 5:02 am #721572
redblackParticipantto bring it back on topic, waynster, i find it pretty repugnant that the teabaggers have appropriated the flag of the culpepper minutemen of virginia, a confederate militia with roots in the revolutionary war.
i see it as a kind of threat; as if we, the people, are the enemy.
you’re right, though. some of us don’t realize that the war among the states is over. what’s worse is that the “party of lincoln” has defected to the confederacy.
if they would only turn their ire on british petroleum, halliburton, koch industries, jp morgan chase, or wal-mart… i would probably join up.
April 12, 2011 at 10:55 pm #721573
JoBParticipantcasaboba…
a hiring manager who hires the most inexperienced person for the job never gets the task accomplished
April 12, 2011 at 11:14 pm #721574
casabobaMemberJoB: Are you referring to our current President? You are too esoteric for me to comprehend. I have NO idea what you mean.
April 13, 2011 at 1:48 am #721575
JoBParticipantcasaboba…
a hiring manager who hires the most inexperienced person for the job never gets the task accomplished
was a response to this…
“”Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.” ~Author Unknown “
though in my personal opinion
you are right…
that is exactly the mistake that democrats made in the last primary…
when they turned down a seasoned and effective negotiator in favor of a relative newcomer.
the good news is that he has had on the job training..
and won’t be too busy running for election in his next term to grow into his job.
April 13, 2011 at 3:44 am #721576
redblackParticipantjo: some of us saw that “seasoned and effective negotiator” as a symbol of the status quo. too much of the same old, same old.
and those of us who have been doing battle with republicans in online fora for a decade or longer were a little sick of them telling us that hillary was our de facto nominee. they knew that “devil” (better than the one they didn’t) and thought that they could scandalize her and send her to the dustbin of politics.
they were probably right.
imho, though, three years later, the results at this point would have been identical. maybe worse.
in hindsight, i think the only difference is that hillary actually knew who was pulling the strings. barack hadn’t found out yet.
but he has now.
April 14, 2011 at 12:11 am #721577
waynsterParticipantLets just say the republican party was terrified of the clintons and they new Hillary would bring them down faster. They knew she had the goods on them what they didnt expect was and still don’t is the tea party is tearing them down from within. Old school conservatives jumping on the band wagon and the religous right still calling for the same old storie line and to top it off rich white over 50 white males with racial bigotry and hate towards minorities and females. The tea party wants go backwards not forward into the future so anything to unseat the President who is African American they can’t handle this and never will…..
April 14, 2011 at 3:32 am #721578
redblackParticipantyeah, waynster. earlier today i was thinking about how teabaggers act like they’ve never actually been to the u.s. they seem to have a strange, frozen-in-time vision of america – circa 1958.
this is, always has been, and always will be a fundamentally violent country with prurient interests. gods and religion are largely absent from our day-to-day interactions. forget about “family values” when you’re out doing your business. and keep an eye on your pocket watch.
teabaggers (and some liberals) ignore those facts at their own peril.
and trying to craft social and economic policies based on a fantastic vision of america is… just plain weird.
April 14, 2011 at 4:38 am #721579
JoBParticipantredblack…
have to disagree with you :)
I don’t think she would have been any better when it comes to war…
but when she negotiated in the senate we ended up with content…
that’s because she knew you don’t start with a weak hand..
and because she knows where all the bodies are buried :)
those republicans said Oh no.. don’t give us the big bad bear…
and we gave them the big bad bear.
wonder when we will stop falling for that?
still remains to be seen whether Obama has figured out how to assume power or not…
but he sure has figured out how to campaign.
waynster..
we can only hope they are imploding from the unrestrained greed of the Koch brothers
but i fear it’s just another diversionary tactic.
April 21, 2011 at 5:57 pm #721580
JoBParticipantsorry..
stumbled across this this morning and couldn’t resist…
an interview with tea party supporters at a recent rally in South Carolina…
http://www.fitsnews.com/2011/04/19/new-video-slams-tea-partiers/
April 22, 2011 at 6:13 am #721581
clark5080ParticipantSo all Dem’s are bumbling fools like Joe Biden is? I think not
April 22, 2011 at 6:22 pm #721582
JoBParticipantclark5080
Joe Biden is a bumbling fool?
i am guessing that is a personal opinion brought on by more FAUX editing…
I will grant that there are democrats who show up at rallies who are bumbling fools.
There are even democrats who show up at rallies who are real space cases…
But you have to admit..
they are generally the exception.
Read any of the news out of Arizona lately?
It’s a real hotbed of cutting edge tea party activism.
At least the governor was smart enough to veto the “show me your foreskin as proof of citizenship” bill.
what she has already signed into law is enough to make any sane person shake their head but it’s still to bad she couldn’t have stopped them from passing it in the first place…
That little fiasco (among others) was brought to you by the elected state assembly in Arizona…
just goes to show…
they elect just plain folks down there in Arizona..
they clean up nice…
but none of them would be out of place in video i linked to…
April 23, 2011 at 12:29 am #721583
dawsonctParticipantArizona is a state, by the way, which wouldn’t have 1/10 of their current population without MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES.
Every blade of grass in that state is kept alive with federal subsidies.
Just one of those points I like to make anytime someone cries about how difficult “teh gubmint” makes it for them.
April 23, 2011 at 10:26 am #721584
HMC RichParticipantRedBlack. You went over the line. And not the Mason Dixon line. Do you truly believe that?
Waynester, is that all you have. Poppycock. Get something fresh.
Then again, maybe you are partially right.
New War, No exit strategy, Check
Spend more than Republicans did, Check
Blame Republicans, Check
Talk about Transparancy but don’t act on it, Check
Sound Conservative during campaign, but breaking campaign pledges, Check
Selling out your base, Check
Turtle like expansion of economy, Check
Alienating Allies and courting Enemy, Check
Speechifying to the masses and doing nothing.
Nevermind, the Democrats haven’t changed either. Forget I said anything.
Hey DawsonCT, and who was the Governor before Brewer? I guess she didn’t do anything while she was in office.
Lets face it. Both parties suck. At least the Right has the TEA PARTY.
What is the Lefts ANSWER?
I do miss the OWL party.
April 23, 2011 at 10:33 am #721585
HMC RichParticipantBut since we don’t have the OWL Party in Washington State, we do have Joe Biden in Washington DC
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1895156_1894977_1846609,00.html
or better yet…
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/joebiden/a/top-10-biden-quotes.htm
But at least he hasn’t shot a “friend” in the face with his shotgun like the former VP did. I think we should make fun of all politicians.
April 23, 2011 at 10:45 am #721586
HMC RichParticipantYes, JoB, Hillary was a better choice. Obama and crew cheated her. The FEC will show that I bet. Never trust a windy city politician.
I can tell you that we Republicans vehemently disliked Mrs. Clinton. But I bet you we wish she was the President now instead of the current guy.
Remember election night when he won? It was quite a night. There was even some hope from us who had voted for McCain.
He did inherit a bad economy. The country needed a change.
But with so much power those first two years with a Democratic majority, I believe his inexperience really has crippled your party and hurt our nation too.
I think Mr. Obama is a nice guy but is over his head. I really believe he was not ready for this job. Reid and Pelosi were savvy enough but they had already used up their political capital.
Oddly enough, I like BHO, but not his policies. I still dislike HRC but would have preferred her policies.
Punt. Go on defense for a bit. Re-tool the offense. It’s about the economy stupid.
April 23, 2011 at 4:09 pm #721587
redblackParticipantspecifically, which part of my post went over the line, rich? i see at least 3 sentences that probably raised your hackles.
April 23, 2011 at 4:47 pm #721588
dawsonctParticipantAnd not a single one of them was incorrect, either, RB.
Rich, the Federal subsidies to turn Arizona from desert to temperate-zone, grass-lawned suburbia, with farms growing crops that should never survive in the desert (and which grow just FINE in other parts of our Nation without subsidized irrigation), started a LOOOOONG time before Napolitano was elected.
My point is, now Az. seems to be near the forefront of the anti-government movement, but they NEVER SEEM TO PAY ANY ATTENTION to the massive Federal subsidies that keep their State viable.
In fact, I find it VERY ironic that the states that get the highest Federal subsidies, the ones that RECEIVE MORE IN FEDERAL DOLLARS THAN THEY PAY INTO IT, are generally the most conservative, SUPPOSEDLY fiscally responsible states.
And the ones who are always braying about “states rights.”
And again, (and again, and again), the Federal government has actually SHRUNK since President Obama came into office, and the MASSIVE expansion of Federal debt was PRIMARILY because his administration started counting the money we were pouring into the Middle-East and South Asia to defend OUR oil.
He was being upfront and honest about the money we were spending on the Federal level, something the Cheney/bush administration could NEVER do.
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