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June 19, 2009 at 9:12 am #591286
HMC RichParticipantThe situation in Iran is volatile and for freedom loving people terrible. The Theocracy of the mullahs is being challenged by the Persian citizens of that country. Our President could help that cause by speaking up against tyranny and oppression. He could make a difference. I truly believe it. He gave HOPE to a large group of Americans. He can inspire people overeas too if he wants. Instead he said he is not meddling. He was meddling in Israel so he can meddle in Iran. Now is a golden opportunity to show the world that Liberty is important and tyranny is wrong.
He also needs to start slapping North Korea around. I am incensed that they will launch a long range rocket on July 4. They are challenging him and us. He needs to show some cahones. He needs to pressure sugar daddy China. They can make a difference.
If he doesn’t the oppressors will start causing even more trouble. When our Presidents actually step up and take on evil, they usually win. I would like to see that in our current President. Please!!!
Yes, I am a hawk but I want people to have freedom. Freedom from tyrannical governments. He can make a difference. I just hope it isn’t too late.
June 19, 2009 at 10:04 am #670172
KenParticipantA gross misunderstanding of world affairs coupled with the empathy of a toddler is how we came so close to a multi front war in the last administration.
Elections have consequences and we can only hope adults remain in charge for the foreseeable future.
June 19, 2009 at 1:48 pm #670173
c@lbobMemberWe’ve had 8 years of cowboy foreign relations, time for something completely different.
June 19, 2009 at 2:21 pm #670174
TheHouseMemberTo quote the older Bush “Not gonna happen”.
June 19, 2009 at 4:03 pm #670175
JanSParticipantHMC Rich…interesting thing to think about. The leadership, esp. the Khamanei, in Iran, does not take responsibility for itself. They would love to have another excuse to simply blame everything on the evil Americans. I think that perhaps Pres. Obama is taking a centered stand on this right now, so as not to inflame that. We ARE NOT responsible for everything in the work, despite what some middle eastern countries might think. We shouldn’t have a knee jerk reaction right now to further the unrest.
As far as N. Korea is concerned, I understand that we are tracking a N. Korean ship that supposedly is headed towards the Hawaiian Islands, and that was stated “we are prepared”. Words are words…we know that our gov’t. does not approve of the N/ Korean stance about nuclear weapons…but..actions, Kim Jong Il (sp?), will understand that. I, for one, am extremely concerned about the two women who are being held captive there…and I can just bet that there are things going on behind closed doors that we don’t know about.
Not thinking, just shooting from the hip, is not the answer, I don’t think.
June 19, 2009 at 5:18 pm #670176
YardvarkMemberWhen I see the Iranians take to the streets after being cheated out of an election, I can’t help but be inspired, just as I was by the Ukrainian Orange Revolution in 2005.
Cause, here in the US, we don’t even demand the power to vote for our President in the first place, nevermind standing up when our elections appear fraudulent.
I hope Obama, our US Congress, and our state legislatures can acknowledge that they too are inspired by the Iranian people’s driven desire for democracy in their presidential elections.
I also hope that they then use that inspiration to support something like the National Popular Vote (Washington State Congress and Gov. Gregoire formally endorsed this concept earlier this year) or a similar measure which increases our own democracy by defeating the very undemocratic electoral college system.
If the Iranian people can see that they are leading the world in such ways with their calls for peaceful democracy, then they’d be all the more likely to continue their efforts and hopefully succeed in creating a more benevolent, diplomatic, and legitimately democratic Iranian government.
Sometimes you lead by following.
June 20, 2009 at 12:56 am #670177
HMC RichParticipantI want our President to support freedom loving people who are bravely defying a dictatorship.
This is not about Bush but some of your tiny and closed leftist anti freedom brains can’t fathom that.
This is about Liberty and telling Tyranny to take a hike. It is called Hope. He can make a difference. Our country is a symbol of freedom and all I ask is that our President recognize that fact and just say we support you (Mousavi and the protestors). The mullahs already hate us. Achminawackjob is an extremist. I am not advocating military action for Iran. Words can be powerful.
Regardless of my feelings, read what people are doing in the Seattle Times opinion section. The article called “Puncturing Iran’s Cyber Barrier”.
Actually the Times was in line with the topics I speak of but we disagree a little in some of the editorials, but they are worth reading and pondering.
We are still at war with North Korea. They starve their people and throw temper tantrums. They see weakness right now but I am hopeful that the new UN resolutions have some effect. I still think we need to put pressure on China to help calm the situation down. China and Russia do not have any interest in another armed conflict at their border. My son was born roughly 200 miles of the North Korean border. I do not want the wonderful people of Russia, China and North and South Korea to engage in a fight.
I truly hope positive results somehow come out of this. We can dream.
June 20, 2009 at 1:52 am #670178
JanSParticipantHMC Rich – thanks..”This is not about Bush but some of your tiny and closed leftist anti freedom brains can’t fathom that.” I guess you’d put me in that category…oh, well…you’d be wrong. I am sooooo tired of leftist this, rightist that…I just disagree with you and it has nothing to do with the size of my brain or yours, or where we’re at on the political spectrum.
we disagree so we’re anti-freedom? are you actually serious? REALLY? have another guiness…
June 20, 2009 at 2:22 am #670179
JimmyGMemberHow many of you have ever been to Iran?
Or know any Persians? How many of you have studied the history of the country (and I don’t mean just from 1979 on)?
I returned from a trip to Iran just two months ago. In my opinion the worst thing Obama can do at this time is to make any direct statement against the Iranian government.
The rulers of the IR of Iran as well as some of the mullahs want nothing more than the U.S. to make strong statements against their electoral process. It allows them to get their citizens to “rally round the flag” against an outside enemy.
The majority of the brave people of Iran who are protesting and marching in the streets know full well what Obama has said, and they understand the tacit meanings of his statements so far.
June 20, 2009 at 3:09 am #670180
PDieterParticipantpitch perfect Jimmy. the neocons have been playing into the hands of these folks for the past 8 years, it’s about time we played smart.
June 20, 2009 at 5:39 am #670181
charlabobParticipantMy thanks to the folks who have the energy to carry on this battle of (?)wits: Ken and Jan and Jimmy and Dieter and the subtly eloquent Yardvark and …
I am an unapologetic leftist, with no qualms about the size or quality of my brain.
I am so tired of people who are hawks on behalf of others (“let’s you and him fight — I’ll, um, hold your coats until the dust gets to me.”) Thirty years ago you were getting my friends killed — now you’re getting my kid’s friends killed and in ten years you’ll be getting my grandkids and their friends killed. And for what? So the multinational corporatists can grow and the gap between rich and poor can widen?
The reason it is time for Obama and the grownups to take over is that grownups in other countries are catching on to our games and that makes it harder for us to win. They know that today we’re on the side of Bin Laden and Saddam and next year we’ll be on the side of their current enemies — all in the guise of freedom. Oops — that’s soooo 80’s. Now we have a different set of enemies and, apparently, a different definition for freedom.
Do you all know we funded Bin Laden so he could defeat the Russians? Did the Afghan people have freedom after the Russians were defeated?
Do you all know Saddam was our creation? Do the Iraquis have freedom now?
Do you know we gave arms to Iran to defeat our “enemies” in Nicaraugua, which duly elected “leftist” Daniel Ortega as president, so now we have “enemies” in charge in both places; whatever shall we do when we don’t know which side to be on? There’s always North Korea — no one likes them.
Do you realize that the “freedom loving” second-place candidate in the Iranian election was second in command to the Ayatollah after the 1979 revolution, and that all of the candidates were picked or approved by the religious leadership? Anyone who would be considered “Freedom-Loving” by a sane person wasn’t allowed to run. Four years ago a true reformist candidate ran and, thanks in large part to our meddling, lost. Perhaps the Iranians are a bit wary of our “support”.
I love this country more than you can imagine — I love it for what it was and what it can be — not for what it apparently wants to do now for corporations and for the rich — not for what it can do for the powerful. And if 99 percent of you actually believe that one day you’ll be part of the top 100, you have my sympathy.
I’m a little surprised at how thoroughly the pro-tyranny crowd manages to convince people that black is white and up is down and there is no gray. (that would be you, Repubs, in case your irony gene has been totally mutated.)
You can depend on Ken and CatlBob and JoB and Jan and others for the footnoted version with facts and references. I have enormous respect and awe for that approach — I haven’t found facts particularly useful in these discussions, so I’ll save my fingers and my energy.
June 20, 2009 at 5:41 am #670182
HMC RichParticipantJimmyG, I am glad you posted. I have not been to Iran. You more than likely have insight that I do not. Let me ask you this. The mullahs have been screaming the same old song and dance for 30 years. Why is now any different? They have to be concerned. Would not a mild statement by the President saying something to the effect of … the United States cherishes freedom for all peoples…cause the “Death To America crowd to come out in droves? I am asking that he show some support for the people risking their lives. A small sign of empathy, if you will in recognition of their plight. I cannot believe that most Iranians are in Love with Khameini and AchminiJihad. To your point, I would not want outside interference to hurt the uprising either. Give me some insight please.
The Ukrainian Orange Revolution had quiet outside help from Democracy friendly groups. I am glad they gave some assistance. Although the Rose and the Orange revolutions were not dealing with a true Theocracy that I am aware of.
If I am wrong I will rethink my position. Please give me and others more insight if you can? I would be interested.
Dieter, Clinton Good in Kosovo, Bad in Rwanda. Bush 1 and Clinton bad in Somalia, Reagan good in Poland and Iron Curtain, bad in Lebanon. Ronnie had a few others too. Bush II some to many say Iraq and Afghanistan bad others do not, Darfur good. Carter, Just BAD on Iran, tried for PLO and Israel, Nixon, Good to get out of Vietnam, Congress bad in letting Cambodia become the killing fields. They all screw up and they all try to do good. I hope BHO does good.
JanS, just playing the written jousting game. I am not that great at it but it does seem to entice some people to comment. Actually, I marvel at Ken’s knowledge and his take no prisoners attitude and honesty. I enjoy the subtle and not so subtle slams. If only I could be his apprentice. I wouldn’t take it personally JanS, it was mostly used to rile up CatlBob. We seem to be politically at the opposite end of the spectrum but I bet we would get along great outside of the politics.
June 20, 2009 at 5:50 am #670183
charlabobParticipantHow the hell did you do that? How did you get in one minute behind me. :-)
To paraphrase another neocon, this time a Dimocrat, I know CatlBob — he’s a *very* good friend of mine. You couldn’t even see him from your end of the spectrum with high-powered binoculars.
love, c
June 20, 2009 at 7:16 am #670184
JeffroMemberHMC, this isn’t a right or left thing. It’s an Iranian thing. Here’s a right-winger that thinks we would be wise to stay out of this – http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124535660563828707.html. We don’t like when Europe or Canada sticks their nose in and tells us how we should run things. We owe Iran the decency to stay out of this.
There hasn’t been a movement for freedom this inspiring since the Berlin Wall or Tianenmen Square. Every morning I expect to fire up the news and find that tyranny has finally triumphed over freedom like it usually seems to. That this has gone on a full week amazes me. I know I could wake up tomorrow and it could all be over, and tonight especially I am fearful that this will happen.
Regardless the outcome, the demonstrators have already succeeded. They have exposed a fraud that nobody can ignore, and they’ve risked their lives doing it.
June 20, 2009 at 7:57 am #670185
CaitParticipantHMC – No need for the tone. I know you’re capable of having this conversation without making it a “lefties are things, righties are that” situation, I’ve seen it before and it’s impressed me! I think these things get way too heated way too fast.
Leadership is necessary, I’m not saying that I disagree, but I think we’re missing the point here. Foreign relations are a delicate subject that honestly us civilians often know very little about even if you’re as read-up as you can be on the subject. It’s one of those issues that it’s almost impossible to know everything about. Domestic policy? You’re living it, of course you know about most of the facets. But with foreign affairs, there are cloudy areas that are meant to be kept cloudy to people like you and me. There could be circumstances that we don’t know about here. It’s still important, you should still keep active in learning about it and most of it is worth getting mad about. But is it worth belittling your neighbors about THEIR views on it, I think not.
In short – Could things be done better – oh, definitely, yes.
Is Obama doing the worst job on the planet to where you need to belittle those who support him? – I don’t think so.
June 20, 2009 at 4:11 pm #670186
JoBParticipantI think the real hope was that with the “reformist” candidate the Iranian people would get freedom from trade restrictions which are crippling the middle class economy.
and yes.. I am sure there are many who realize they traded the tyranny of a king … who may have been ready to moderate if only because he was near death and that tends to change your world view.. for the tyranny of a theocracy…
i think the theocracy will be harder to get rid of.
nothing is as straight forward as it looks when we talk about democracy… even in these United States.
June 21, 2009 at 3:19 am #670187
YardvarkMemberIt doesn’t matter if you’re a left leaning fool or a right leaning fool…
We’ve got a whole heck of lot of work to do on our democratic process right here in the US.
Iran is such a long plane flight.
Why don’t we just hunker down and make sure that our own democracy is up to snuff?
Plenty to do for all of us fools, especially the ones who love the hell out of freedom.
June 21, 2009 at 5:51 am #670188
HMC RichParticipantBecause of my rash name calling of the left (which is out of character for me) there are two points to the thread.
No one likes to be called names. I too get tired of being lumped in with a whole group of people who do not speak for me. It doesn’t feel good when the shoe is on the other foot does it?
Secondly, I am amazed at the steps the the protestors have taken in spite of a despotic regime and the threats aimed at the protesters. I find it sickening Khameini has to preach to his people with a rifle on his lap. If I read it right the Supreme Leader has to demonize any country or philosophy not that of Islamic Shiite doctrine.
I did know that Mir was part of the government at various times. These candidates were selected. Rafsanjani and other mullahs have different views from others. Liberty is their enemy. Control is there game. I bet they have some huge power struggles.
I am now proud of President Obama for his recent support of the protesters. He did the right thing. Please think good thoughts for the protestors. They too are mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers.
We are lucky to have a relatively peaceful nation. If only the radicals would go away and allow peace and liberty to shine.
PS…Jeffro I found your post interesting. I totally agree with the last paragraph. Charlabob, I think you are fabulous and I knew your *very* close friend and I will not politically see eye to eye on Politics. For that matter neither will you or I most of the time. I do however know that I can get along with most people and would be very happy to meet you two at some point.
What I do know about people is that we are a lot more alike than different. Most of us feel joy, pain, grief, love, anger, sadness, boredom, excitement. We are all different too in many individual ways which makes us who we are. I can choose to like or dislike but I will not overtly try to hurt. I would usually rather help.
Good Night
June 21, 2009 at 6:00 am #670189
TheHouseMemberI would just like to say that personally, I feel bad for the people of Iran but this is one of those cases where the United States should NOT be playing “moral police” and I do not fault President Obama for not getting heavily involved. Although the United States stands for freedom, this is an internal issue that needs to be handled by the people in Iran.
We had to go through a Civil War and suffer thousands of lost lives in order to achieve unity and unfortunately they may have to go through it as well.
I am more concerned with how President Obama will handle the nut job in North Korea. He seems like a greater National Security threat than the issues in Iran. I just hope he gets off his duff to deal with him strongly and doesn’t dance around waiting to be diplomatic.
June 21, 2009 at 4:44 pm #670190
JoBParticipantit is truly a good day in the neighborhood…
theHouse and i agree on something.. even if it is that President Obama and our House and our Senate should have kept their mouths shut when it came to the internal struggle in Iran.
Although individual expressions of support posted where Iranians can see them may do a great deal of good..
official declarations like that our congress saw fit to make only strengthens the impression of interference and give the current regime the same excuse they used to foment their revolution… keeping American influence out of Iranian politics.
As for the nut job in Korea.. we have had 8 years of a president who got “off his duff to deal with him stongly” and that policy didn’t work out so well.
It seems that nut job has used the same ploy the mullahs used in Iran…
maybe we need a new strategy?
June 22, 2009 at 1:26 am #670191
charlabobParticipantRich, thank you for, once again, making it impossible for me to ever say none of my friends could ever possibly be Republicans. (At the rate the Dims are going, I could wind up friendless.)
Seriously, your gracious words have potential to create true nonpartisanship. (I’ve alway resented the word “bipartisan” because of all the people it leaves out.)
I hope you’re having a wonderful father’s day–the kid (and potential kids) are very fortunate.
June 22, 2009 at 2:11 am #670192
JoBParticipantJune 22, 2009 at 6:11 am #670193
FullTiltParticipant“This is not about Bush but some of your tiny and closed leftist anti freedom brains can’t fathom that.”
That line made me laugh. It reminded me of when rednecks started calling french fries “freedom fries”, and the French started calling American cheese “idiot cheese”.
June 22, 2009 at 2:24 pm #670194
YardvarkMemberRight. Or the good old statement on keeping open minds towards personal freedom:
“You’re either with us or with the terrorists.”
I can’t remember who said that, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a closed leftist anti-freedom terrorist.
June 22, 2009 at 7:40 pm #670195
Sky2625MemberI contend that the demonstrations put the US in an even more difficult position with Iran.
President Obama’s comments from yesterday:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-from-the-President-on-Iran/
I read that and I hear: “Mullahs, you’re playing with fire here. Be careful what you do, because you know how the rest of us think.”
There are no direct statements of support for the protestors or what they’re protesting for, no threats of action. It seems weak and indifferent, and I understand why Obama’s stance is taking criticism, but I think that statement is about as far as the President can safely go…
Support for the protestors themselves could easily be a PR coup for Iran’s government, i.e. they’d say “these protests are little more than an American provocation, and are illegitimate” and then crack down accordingly with 60% support from the populace. The US could de-legitimize the demonstrations by coming out whole hog in favor of them.
The demonstrations also put us in a more difficult position regarding a military strike against Iran’s nuke facilities. I don’t believe we would do it (Israel would), but Israel can’t do it without direct American support, so it’s basically the same thing. Striking Iran risks stoking a direct anti-American backlash that the Iranian regime can tap into. As long as the people are protesting their government, we should not risk pushing them back into the arms of their government by attacking them.
Plus, words DO have power. An Obama statement of support for the protestors would risk what Pres. George HW Bush did with the Iraqi Shiites during the Gulf War, what Kennedy did with the Cubans, and what the US and EU did with the Georgians last year: give a weaker party the impression that we would help them materially and financially in an open conflict when we had no intention or capability of doing so.
Additionally, President Obama has committed to opening up dialogue with the Iranians on their nuclear program. Negotiating with the Iranian government now sells out the Iranian dissidents, and legitimizes Ahmadinejad as the de facto President of Iran.
Further, if you need a negotiating partner to make concessions sometime in the future, it’s not smart to punch him in the nose now. Because of this, I feel safe in saying that Obama’s commitment to dialogue has reduced American options in the short term. However, I fully support the negotiations if they end up showing how hard-line, unreasonable, and inflexible Iran is. I sure hope that’s the game Obama is playing.
Personally, I’m with HMCRich on the pro-liberty, anti-tyranny front. I’m cheering the protestors on. I hope Ahhmadi-alphabetsoup gets thrown out on his duff, and I’m very excited to see that most media outlets are now describing him as a “Holocaust-denier”. I hope the Iranians know that most Americans probably support their efforts, too.
But officially, I think that President Obama’s strategic stance leaves him no better option than to wait and see what happens, while occasionally admonishing the Iranian government for “unjust violence”.
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