Home › Forums › West Seattle Rants & Raves › RANT: Shame on you Trader Joes
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October 24, 2012 at 1:35 am #774673
kgdlgParticipantI think the issue in this post is whether TJs deserves any blame for not intervening in this situation. The pertinent facts:
1) the kids were not in immediate danger according to the OP (they were simply alone in car)
2) it is apparently perfectly legal to leave your kids locked in the car at a grocery store in Seattle.
3) even so, the OP called 911 and waited at the car until the mother returned (and apparently said nothing to her, although she has never chimed in to confirm this), so they were being watched by her the whole time the mother shopped (i e were safe)
4) where in this scenario should TJs have done anything???
October 24, 2012 at 1:41 am #774674
WSBKeymasterI am honestly shocked to find out it’s apparently not illegal to leave babies/small children alone in cars. Was looking around for other states’ laws and it is NOT legal everywhere.
https://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Child_Protection/About_Child_Protective_Services/faqchildalone.asp#car
October 24, 2012 at 2:31 am #774675
DBPMember>>Where in this scenario should TJs have done anything???
Trader Joe’s wasn’t legally bound to do anything; that’s been established. However, if I were one of the clerks the OP talked to, and if I’d had the presence of mind, I would’ve gone on the intercom with something like this:
Greetings Trader Joe’s shoppers! Just want to let one of our shoppers know that they’ve left their wee ones out the parking lot. Thank you.
At that point, the tots’ mom would’ve realized her mistake, namely, thinking that nobody would notice or care if she left her babes in the car. If she’d then come up to the counter in a huff, claiming that she’d done nothing illegal, I would’ve pointed out that I hadn’t either. If she insisted she’d do the same thing all over again, I’d follow suit.
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It might interest people who are following this thread to know that in some countries it’s quite commonplace for mothers to leave their infants unattended in prams (!) outside of cafes and stores. A Danish friend of mine tells me that if you go for coffee in Copenhagen, you should not be surprised to see several prams (complete with babies) lined up in a row out front. Even in inclement weather.
Same goes for Iceland, whence this photo:
Source:
http://reykjavikdailyphoto.blogspot.com/2008/10/could-not-be-more-icelandic.html
October 24, 2012 at 2:36 am #774676
kgdlgParticipantDBP, I think your point about Europe is well taken – maybe the mom felt safe enough in W Sea to leave her kiddos in the car. Again, if not illegal I don’t think it is TJs job to police or point out behavior that makes some people uncomfortable. That is an extremely slippery slope. Get on the intercom and tell people to stop giving money to panhandlers outside? What else should they announce? Stop jaywalking in front of the store?
October 24, 2012 at 2:56 am #774677
DBPMemberWell said kg. However, what I was proposing was a compromise designed to prevent bad feelings all around.
If you took a poll, I think you’d find that most people would feel uncomfortable with tots locked in a car, and I bet that’s just what happened in the TJ’s case. I’ll bet several people who saw those kids were worried about them.
Whenever someone’s doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable, I think it’s ok to say, “Excuse me, but that makes me feel uncomfortable.” As long as you’re prepared to be disagreed with or ignored, everything will turn out ok; you’ve spoken your piece and the other person has at least heard you, even if they don’t agree with you.
It’s like people telling off-color jokes at dinner. You don’t have to fling your soup bowl at them, but you don’t have to sit there and take it either.
☺ A sign saying: “Please don’t give to panhandlers outside this store,” would be appropriate. Intercom announcements would probably not be. Same goes for jaywalking outside the store.
October 24, 2012 at 3:03 am #774678
kootchmanMemberraise yours.. I’ll raise mine… hey! There is a novel idea!! MYOB!!!
October 24, 2012 at 3:13 am #774679
kgdlgParticipantDBP, I completely agree which is why it was the OPs responsibility to say something to the mother, not the store’s!!! I don’t want the places where I shop to tell me (or shame me publicly) for something that is a matter of opinion. We may all agree that kids shouldn’t be left in cars, but if it isn’t illegal, well, it isn’t! Should TJs make announcements about people smoking in cars outside with kids? Should they make announcements about parents yelling at kids in cars? Technically, these things aren’t illegal but frowned upon…
October 24, 2012 at 4:07 am #774680
WorldCitizenParticipantYou have an obligation to act on your own morality. Relying on others to do it for you is a mistake and selfish every time. If you are afraid of standing up for your morals, then don’t expect any solace from others.
October 24, 2012 at 4:20 am #774681
365StairsParticipantHow oddly Educational this has been. I keep the …”If you see something…say something”. Security mantra. Pretty much covers all sorts of issues. If you’re polite about it, it likely would not have escalated passed a “MYOB”. Of perhaps a thank you for looking out.
Great thread!
Hope TJs name can be edited out?
October 24, 2012 at 11:35 am #774682
2 Much WhineParticipantGreetings from Italy. Here I’ve seen cars parked in the street (and running) with children in the back (not in car seats) while a parent ran into a store and did their shopping. Apparently Italian kids are much less prone to the possible trauma that results from being left alone in a car.
October 24, 2012 at 12:59 pm #774683
anonymeParticipantI’ve lived in both Europe and Japan where it is not unusual to leave children unattended in a vehicle. However, most other countries don’t really have problems with carjackings and child predators, either. The U.S. is … special.
October 24, 2012 at 1:19 pm #774684
anonymeParticipantAfter reading Brew’s ‘interesting’ post, I recalled something else about living in Italy. I once saw a mother slap a young child on the cheek at a restaurant. The Italians wasted no time in letting her know they would not tolerate such actions. On another occasion, neighbors called police when a baby cried “too much”. The point is that, in many family-centric countries, the entire community watches out for the welfare of children. Apparently if you try to do that here, you should expect to be told to “eff off”, according to Brew.
As for Brew’s inebriated comments in #45, a COP told me it was illegal to leave children unattended in a vehicle, and took a report. Even if it’s not illegal (strictly speaking)and the cop was WRONG – I still think it’s the wrong thing to do, and that reporting it is RIGHT. We need more people speaking up on behalf of those who are powerless, not less.
October 24, 2012 at 1:24 pm #774685
yes2wsParticipantThumbs up to post #57.
October 24, 2012 at 5:41 pm #774686
SpodieMemberWow!
Doubling Down on the typical Seattle Passive Aggression.
You won’t confront the mother yourself and try to pawn it off on Trader Joes, who have nothing to do with it. You then follow that up by coming to some blog, that has nothing to do with it, because you won’t confront Trader Joes.
If only you could recruit someone else to act on your outrage while you sip your pumpkin-spiced latte.
October 24, 2012 at 5:42 pm #774687
WSBKeymasterFWIW – I have to listen to the scanner even more closely than usual today because the online 911 log is down for maintenance, – SPD is dispatching someone somewhere because a baby was left alone in a car and a citizen was concerned. Don’t think it’s WS (the scanner is for calls in multiple sectors) but for what it’s worth, illegal or not, heard that and thought of this thread.
October 24, 2012 at 6:16 pm #774688
SpodieMemberThe technicalities of it are maddening.
State Code says that it is only illegal if parked outside of a bar:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.91.060
City Code says that it is only illegal if the motor is left running:
However, Good police will find a way to correct the habit:
http://blog.thenewstribune.com/crime/2012/03/29/leaving-child-unattended-in-car-unwise-illegal/
October 24, 2012 at 6:19 pm #774689
WorldCitizenParticipantI don’t think the motor was running…
October 24, 2012 at 6:20 pm #774690
DBPMemberI wasn’t really thinking of shaming the person, but I can see how people would take it that way. Maybe it would be better handled by the clerk going on the intercom and saying: “Would the owner of a [make and color of car] please come to the service counter?”
That way the whole thing could be handled discreetly.
In any case, I can think of a couple reasons why it might be better to have someone from TJ’s say something the intercom than for the OP to simply wait in the parking lot for the mother to come back out.
You know, I recently asked the librarian at the SW Library to ask an able-bodied person to move their SUV out of the disabled spot. I mentioned that here on the Blog and no one criticized me for it.
October 24, 2012 at 6:49 pm #774691
kgdlgParticipantHere is the thing DBP, we live in a litigious society. If TJs were to “do” something about the car, then that is a tacit statement that they are “responsible” for it. They are not. Say, for example, the babies died in the car on a hot day, then should TJs be sued? Or is it the Mom’s fault? I think it is the Mom’s. And if it were a hot day and someone came into the store and said she had called 911 after seeing the kids in the car, I am not sure anything else should be done by TJs. It is for the police or ambulance. You have to see this from their standpoint of liability.
Kudos to Melissa for calling 911. She did, for her, the right thing. I hope I would have also said something to the Mom when she came out, but that is a personal decision for each person to make based on safety etc.
October 24, 2012 at 6:49 pm #774692
DBPMemberIf I were the mother of the tots and I had my choice of these options:
1) Being confronted in the parking lot
2) Having to explain the situation to the cops
3) Being hailed over the intercom (discreetly)
I know which one I’d choose.
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A propos of your comments, kg, let’s pretend we’re TJ’s legal counsel for a moment, shall we? As such, we have to look at the matter from a liability perspective, imagining the worst-case scenario and all that.
For those whose imaginations need help on this, here it is:
Â
â–º Mother leaves tots unattended in parking lot.
â–º Shopper comes to desk asking clerk to announce it on the intercom. Clerk demurs.
â–º Tot gets head stuck in steering wheel and chokes to death. (Yes, it can happen.)
â–º Mother sues TJ’s for millions of dollars, claiming negligence.
Â
Now I know this sounds far-fetched, but stranger things have transpired in the history of our legal system.
On the witness stand, TJ’s manager would certainly claim that the store had nothing to do with the mother’s bad judgment. But the plaintiff’s lawyer would ignore that line of argument in favor of this one:
Â
Plaintiff’s Lawyer: Did another shopper come to the front desk and notify you that there were two little children inside this car?
TJ’s Manager: Uh, yeah. Someone asked us to find the mother and talk to her but . . .
Lawyer: —And did you do that?
TJ’s Manager: Umm . . . No.
Â
Now think of what that sounds like to a jury, a jury in which there are lots of mothers and fathers but no corporate CEOs.
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I’m not exactly sure what TJ’s should have done about this, but I’m sure it should not have been: Nothing.
October 24, 2012 at 6:56 pm #774693
kgdlgParticipantDBP I actually agree with your scenario if the kids are in danger! But in the case that was posted, they were not. Melissa was watching them and had called 911. She had done everything that anyone could do, so in my mind TJs had no responsibility to do anything else. What we are arguing about here is if the OP has the right to transfer her concern to TJs given the situation, and I don’t think she does.
Now, if the kid were climbing into the steering wheel around head situation and the OP ran up to a clerk and said “a kid is choking alone in the car!” that is very very different. Then, one could assume this warrants breaking he car window versus just calling 911 for a health and safety check, for something that isn’t even illegal apparently.
October 24, 2012 at 7:10 pm #774694
kgdlgParticipantposted too soon, in the choking situation i describe above, I would expect TJs to respond, because of concerns about the kids AND their liability. But just approaching a clerk because something bad “might” happen, to me, doesn’t warrant an expectation that TJs should do something (or criticism here). If they did, they would be in the parking lot A LOT monitoring all kinds of situations that “could” become dangerous. Like I said before, should TJs intervene when a Mom yells at a kid and looks like she is going to hit her? (not illegal to parent badly, but danger “could” come to the child from it) Should they monitor someone smoking with windows up and their kids inside (those kids could get cancer after all). I mean, it is endless.
October 24, 2012 at 7:11 pm #774695
kgdlgParticipantJust so everyone knows, I am a democrat that believes in personal responsibility :)
October 24, 2012 at 10:59 pm #774696
megMemberDo NOT let me catch you feeding your chubby kid a chocolate donut!!
Four syllables: Dia-betes
October 26, 2012 at 9:45 pm #774697
cakeitseasyMemberWhat if the kids were crying? What that have justified the OP’s actions?
You’re rushing to a job interview and duck into TJ’s to pick up some mints before your bus arrives. As you dash through the parking lot you notice a car with two crying infants locked in. They don’t seem to be in apparent danger, but there is no sign of their guardian or other adult around and they are…crying. What does one do?
OR
After picking up your infant from daycare, you head over to TJ’s ,,,(your difficult mother in law is due for dinner in a couple of hours and she really likes the chocolate covered ice cream bon bons). You rush back to the car with your cranky, hungry, poopy diapered infant you need to get home ASAP (along with the frozen treats) and you still need to pick up the 5 year old from soccer. You’ve got to be there on time this week, because his carpool friends are leaving early to catch a ferry . And it’s raining. And your cell phone battery is low. As you lift your wailing miserable child out of the shopping cart and juggle the grocery bags, you notice the car next to you has two crying infants with no adult in sight. What do you do?
My take:
I’d be really pissed off at the person who left the kids in the car because now it has become MY problem. I’d also be pissed off at the poor customer service skills of the TJ employees who did not step up to check out the situation in their parking lot (legally required to or not). And further pissed that they could not at least take a plate number and page the car’s owner. In short, someone else’s responsibility has become MY responsibility, and I have been unfairly impacted. MYOB? Gladly!…but not when I’m morally obligated to find out what’s up with an unattended child.
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